Why are there so few state owned / state run schools in Ireland?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149117#Comment_118149117

i don’t think it is unusual. It was the 90s, early 2000s. There were no priests and one Christian brothers in the staff - the science teacher and a good one, no assembly, no prayers, nothing. Religion was a civics class.

I’m Surprised that anywhere else was different to be honest.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150131#Comment_118150131

Why is that?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150751#Comment_118150751

I expect many people had a similar experience.

However these days it may be different. As the religion declines, there is a shift to fundamentalism and certain discrimination in school appointments. behind the scenes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150950#Comment_118150950

That’s interesting. Didn’t think of that.

anyway I’d get rid of the church involvement now, im just not someone who believes it was a madrassa back then either.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149097#Comment_118149097

Then maybe my interpretation of indoctrination is different from yours.

I suggest the normal day to day activities in any typical church-owned school in Ireland is not indoctrination.

Obviously there is instruction in whatever faith owns the school.

I consider indoctrination to be much stricter/regulated than what happens in a typical Irish school, for example like an Islamic school, where the boundary between the religion and daily life is blurred.

An anecdote: as a retreat, I think I told the priest I was agnostic. Could a kid say that in an Islamic school?

I do not consider the following indoctrination:

church is patron of school / school named after a saint / 1-2 minute prayer before the first class starts / prep for Holy Communion, etc.

Flinty997

In fairness it is indoctrination, even it its not that effective. It didn't always have negative connotations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination

"..Religious indoctrination, the original sense of indoctrination, refers to a process of imparting doctrine in an authoritative way, as in catechism..."

What people general dispute is this interpretation.

"..As a pejorative term, indoctrination implies forcibly or coercively causing people to act and think on the basis of a certain ideology.."

Governments indoctrinate the population through education and the media. It's simply softer and more subtle (sometimes) than the more obvious church indoctrination.

Living in China made me see just how much indoctrination goes on, on a daily basis... and I saw the same indoctrination going on when I returned to Ireland. Different messages, with different intent, but it's there nonetheless, whether it's marketing from businesses, child/adult psychology in educational curriculum, or whatever. It's there around us all the time, conditioning us to trigger emotions at certain images, or to consider particular philosophies as being superior to others.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149759#Comment_118149759

Post 81

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118151145#Comment_118151145

I do not consider the following indoctrination:

church is patron of school / school named after a saint / 1-2 minute prayer before the first class starts / prep for Holy Communion, etc.

I can't agree with you there.

While the patron being a religious body, and the school being named after a saint are not in themselves indoctrination, it is laughable to say that religious acts such as saying prayers and teaching catholic doctrine are not indoctrination. I mean the word indoctrination actually comes from the word doctrine!

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150754#Comment_118150754

NI is in effect a different country from England and Wales, certainly a very different society with different attitudes to education and a totally different education system (e.g. nowhere else in the UK still has grammar schools).

So the prominence of religion in the NI school system is very far from being the only difference.

There definitely has been a slow release of schools over to state governance over the last few decades, the Department of Education has a fairly solid role in the Irish Educational Curriculum so in terms of standard of education that would be considered a neutral framework. It's most likely a logistical issue at this stage but most people are more concerned with the quality of qualification their children are receiving (freely through at state level.) I think it's worse at primary level as most kids have to go through the religious sacrament process but then at secondary level the religious indoctrination seems to be exchanged for CPSE or some element of humanities studies which is probably more suitable. Understandably, at that level the real issue with how that ethos affects people who continue to be discriminated against by the Catholic Church.

The pandemic was actually a pretty good indicator of the numbers who place emphasis on the religious indoctrination of their children, or at least in my neck of the woods there was demonstrable anger at the refusal to provide sacraments during lockdown. I don't know if it is a true reflection of the numbers who actually practice Catholicism (unlikely) but the desire to maintain the status quo was pretty evident.

I know in the states, most Catholic schools are fee paying institutions which traditionally provided high standard of education and were often sought after in certain circles. It's a no brainer that if fees were attached to having a catholic education here most would opt out but I think it should be that way. I think there is value in having faith based education but it should be optional, and I think it might be taught properly too.

Hotblack Desiato

The pandemic was actually a pretty good indicator of the numbers who place emphasis on the religious indoctrination of their children, or at least in my neck of the woods there was demonstrable anger at the refusal to provide sacraments during lockdown.

I dunno about that, a lot of people see communion and confirmation as a nice day out / booze up excuse rather than a religious event.

Anyway, irrelevant to schools, or at least should be! About half of the kids in Educate Together schools do communion, they attend classes etc. in their own time instead of during the school day. There's a handful of kids in our local CoI school doing similar.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118151490#Comment_118151490

Okay, okay, well then indoctrination, in the original sense, happens every day in most schools in Ireland, as you would expect in a Christian country.

I take the second interpretation "as a pejorative term, indoctrination implies forcibly causing people to act and think on the basis of a certain ideology" - that does not happen here, thankfully.

Hotblack Desiato

That's a very strong statement. A lot of schools push a very catholic line in relation to relationships & sex education, some even get fundamentalist nutcases like "Pure in Heart" in to deliver same. Then there was this:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/sixth-year-girls-in-tears-over-anti-abortion-video-40752424.html

BTW Ireland is not "a christian country" it's supposed to be a secular republic (which happens to have a lot of people who describe themselves as christian) it's not some Jesus-based mirror image of Pakistan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118155199#Comment_118155199

Well this is the thing, you can take the church out of the schools but you'll have a hard time taking the Catholic out of the Irish. There's a legion of Mary's around every corner and it's a very specific Marian culture that is pervasive across Ireland. It's a mash of pagan superstition and traditional Christianity which makes Irish Catholicism distinguishable from Roman Catholicism. There are distinct cultural markers that are remnants of indigenous practices across most continents, like Pachamama worship in the Amazon Ireland has some inherent characteristics that will always remain in the psyche.

Even if all schools were owned and run by the state, it would do little to eliminate that culture.

Hotblack Desiato

Religious practice in Ireland has never been lower, if some people want to tick a box on the census to make themselves feel better then fine but it can't be used as a useful measure of anything including how our education system should be organised.

We could place a blanket ban on employing Catholics in the education sector and that might solve the problem. I don't know if it would work, but. Oh, wait. Yeah never mind.

The point I was meaning to make though is that even where people aren't "practicing" they are the "our" in our education system. I'm kind of reminded of this (because it's where I'm reading at the minute)

8 ...and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Luke 3:8

Most Irish people still consider themselves Catholic but in truth most of them wouldn't be able to tell one end of the catechism from the other. It might actually be better if they were practicing.

Geuze

I would not like to see 100% State-owned / ETB schools only.

Less church-owned schools, fair enough, a mix of patrons, yes.

Strumms

From a purely educational standpoint my religious school ran by the Christian brothers was ok.

from a social standpoint it’s was like something out of a communist gulag . This was early to late 1990’s..

Soccer was banned, not to be played... not in PE, not during lunch breaks... kids stayed back after school playing basketball on the outside court, no problem, Practicing frees for Gaelic football or hurling.... but the brothers would be watching from their house, soccer wasn’t permitted..

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118157429#Comment_118157429

You're not making any coherent point there.

It doesn't matter what religion a teacher is or isn't if they're not expected to provide religious instruction during the school day. But in Ireland's very odd education system, they have to pretend to be catholic to get a job in 90% of primary schools even though it's taxpayers not the catholic church paying their wages.

spacetweek

A lot of people on this thread are not showing that they recognise indoctrination when they see it, as they probably grew up here and were indoctrinated in a Catholic school (as I was myself). When you grow up this way you accept all this as normal but it is anything but.

Religion has no place in education, that is a medieval attitude. Religion permeates most subjects in Ireland, especially Irish which is taught in a way that is filled with Christian references.

The state must take over at least 50% of Catholic schools and eliminate clergy from their boards and disallow religious symbols and practice in the school. The "religion" subject, if present at all, should treat religion as something other people do and never assume the student's religious beliefs. All new schools must be state run. 100% of schools should be forced to remove school prayer and move sacramental preparation to the end of the day so a meaningful opt out could be implemented. This is all in our Constitution but never happened in practice.

If all that was done it would be a good start but further work would be needed.

yeah, how great is our God.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118157705#Comment_118157705

Any particular reason?

ETB (Education & Training Boards, formerly known as VECs) only control a very small number of primary schools (Community National Schools) and this is all within the last 10 years or so. They're supposed to be religiously "inclusive" but their religion syllabus was written by the catholic church, sacramental preparation happens in school, and initially they segregated pupils during religion class into catholic, protestant and "other" 🙄 but teachers, parents and school boards rightly objected to this and refused to implement it.

Educate Together are not a state body and control about 4% of primary schools. Catholic church still on 90%...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118158521#Comment_118158521

A lot of people on this thread are not showing that they recognise indoctrination when they see it, as they probably grew up here and were indoctrinated in a Catholic school (as I was myself). When you grow up this way you accept all this as normal but it is anything but.

Maybe if you grew up in the 50s or 60s. But most people today have some experience of travelling or living abroad. They also have access to a wide range of media... and are educated to boot. The idea that Christian indoctrination is so pervasive is ridiculous... and I come from a religious family.

Indoctrination received as a child can only remain if it is reinforced as a teen and again, for repeated periods as an adult. The basic foundation of indoctrination is the repetitive nature and exposure of people to the message intended. It's the reason why in Communist systems, students receive political training from primary school, right through to university, and extended further by workshops within their place of employment. Such indoctrination needs to be reinforced.

In the past, Irish people were predominately active Catholics, with the indoctrination being reinforced at many stages of their lives. Government control of media, and censorship of information guaranteed that people didn't have options for information and so relied on what they were taught.. but those days are long gone. Even the direct influence of the RCC on Irish society has been declining rapidly for 30 years now.

Religion has no place in education, that is a medieval attitude. Religion permeates most subjects in Ireland, especially Irish which is taught in a way that is filled with Christian references.

Irish history and traditional Irish culture has strong links with Christianity. For a rather long time, one of Irish people's proudest claims was that they managed to keep their religion in the face of English aggression. It's part of Ireland. And that's not a bad thing... otherwise the religion wouldn't have declined so much, even before the priests were caught out on their molestation.

Religion has a place in education. As a subject, so that students will be informed. The simple fact is that religion is incredibly important to many people throughout the world, and can be a core part of how they identify themselves. Understanding the various religions, provides insights into how to understand others, but also to avoid social oops moments relating to religious beliefs.

As for religion as part of the educational system, there are a number of religious orders that have centuries of experience in teaching, and have managed to produce some of the greatest minds of our times. You seem to ignore that many scientists were religious themselves, and went to schools operated by the religious orders. Religious operated schools can be excellent learning institutions. They can also be terrible learning institutions. Just as State run schools can be both. It depends on that particular school, and the manner in which they've organised themselves, and the way in which they pursue the curriculum (and quality of teachers).

The state must take over at least 50% of Catholic schools and eliminate clergy from their boards and disallow religious symbols and practice in the school. The "religion" subject, if present at all, should treat religion as something other people do and never assume the student's religious beliefs. All new schools must be state run. 100% of schools should be forced to remove school prayer and move sacramental preparation to the end of the day so a meaningful opt out could be implemented. This is all in our Constitution but never happened in practice.

It didn't happen because the rights of religious people are protected, just as your own rights are protected. In any case, I think you'd find a lot of people who have left their Christian beliefs behind them, coming forward to object to your measures. Start up your new schools and have them State run... but don't force your biases on to other people, based on rather dubious logic.

Hotblack Desiato

Indoctrination received as a child can only remain if it is reinforced as a teen and again, for repeated periods as an adult. 

Proof that it's a waste of time yet primary schools spend hours a week on it. There are limited contact hours in school. Complete wastes of time like Irish and religion have a large opportunity cost.

Hotblack Desiato

Can you outline the process to "have a school state run"...?

No because there isn't one. Dept of Education will not fund a building or teacher salaries unless there is enough unmet demand for school places in an area. So if there are places available in a catholic or protestant school that is what you will be forced to accept. Even if there is enough demand to establish a new school, and there is parental demand for that school to be non-religious, they can just choose to expand the existing religious schools without any consultation whatsoever with parents in the area. Dept of Education is to all intents and purposes still an outpost of the catholic church.

So what's your suggestion? "Just move" (where?) Emigrate? Win the lotto and establish a privately funded school?

The parents want to send their offspring to religious schools so they can learn a moral code apparently. Which gives me a good laugh considering some of the crooked bastards I had as teachers. It explains a lot about modern society. It's analogous to learning about fiscal responsibility from John Delaney.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118159340#Comment_118159340

Yes, and no. Previously we had a society which reinforced the religious aspect, not just through the attendance of mass, but also in mainstream society itself... The system was in place for reinforcement, and in many places, especially in rural areas, not much has changed, even now.

But yes, at this stage in things it is a waste of time to attempt indoctrination of religion. Not to worry though. They'll replace it with indoctrination over gender and race theory instead.

Irish.. now previously I would have agreed with you, that it was a complete waste of time, but since the EU recognised it as a language, the usefulness of having Irish has increased immeasurably, not just for the work opportunities that have become available but also the future potential if that development continues. But yes, for most people, learning Irish is a complete waste of time, and an empty gesture.

Hotblack Desiato

That's just an FF scam, jobs for the boys and girls translating reports that nobody reads but hey, it's only taxpayers' money...

Your comment about "gender and race theory" is nonsense. You really think that primary schools will spend the 2.5 or more hours a week currently wasted on religion with "gender and race theory", starting at age 5? Utter rubbish, but exactly the sort of fact-free hysteria the right wing love to wallow in

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118160340#Comment_118160340

No, actually I'm referring to a range of jobs which can be found amongst the EU, where Irish has become recognised alongside the other European languages, which in turn, requires a variety of jobs to be filled. Not just translation but executive positions too.

As for the rest, I didn't say anything about primary schools. Nice of you to restrict where it would be applied. Gender and race theory is already being taught in various British secondary schools, and there have been references previously of them being introduced in some Irish schools for transition year students. It's not here now, but it could well be in the future.

As for your right wing comment... now you're the one talking nonsense. The vast majority of Irish people tend to stick to the middle, leaning left or right depending on the issue in question. Saying that gender/race theory may be introduced into schools isn't a right wing stance.. it's simply a recognition of how society is developing, and the continued adoption of social science rubbish coming out of America.