Why are there so few state owned / state run schools in Ireland?

Hotblack Desiato · 10-11-2021 1:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143753#Comment_118143753

this is completely wrong, they are funded by the state but privately owned, the Dept of Education does not hire and fire teachers the appointees of the local bishop do...

also there are many areas where certain schools are almost exclusively white, while other schools in the area (those less well regarded, and/or more recently established) have mostly non-white pupils.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143834#Comment_118143834

There are no non-denominational schools in Ireland. ETs are "multi-denominational". Believe it or not, every school in Ireland funded by the state must officially have a "denomination".

Hotblack Desiato · 10-11-2021 1:37pm

A religious group can provide the structure and service of teaching, without it being a mouthpiece of it's religious agenda

has that ever happened though?

10-11-2021 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145775#Comment_118145775

Depends on what kind of mouthpiece it's being. Is it dedicated towards indoctrination of their faith, or simply making people aware that they exist.

As I said before, I went to Marist Brothers schools, and while the religious aspect was present, it wasn't forced on us. Nor were the religious attitudes about homosexuality, abortion, etc promoted. That's what I meant about being a mouthpiece of it's religious agenda.

Flinty997 · 10-11-2021 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145723#Comment_118145723

"... My recollection of primary was prayer first thing, before lunch, after lunch and end of day and every celebration involving a mass. Listening to stories of hell as a non believer etc, the local priest popping in to give a talk about the saint of the day..."

Its seem very common in these threads for people to have attended a school more religious than something out of the 50s. I'm not saying it didn't happen, because it definitely did. It just that I don't think it was as common as you'd think from these forums. But its more akin to my parents experience than my generation and I'm no spring chicken.

But certainly if thats your experience, you could not but be effected by it. I'm not dismissing that.

Sleepy · 10-11-2021 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145704#Comment_118145704

I don't necessarily disagree that some schools founded and run by religious orders happen to be excellent. That said, allowing any organisation whose primary goal is to increase the number of adherents to a belief system which flies in the face of logic and reason to have control of the institutions in which we educate our young is illogical. The Patrician Brothers school I attended was academically excellent but the academic education was delivered with a large side-helping of Catholic Indoctrination and anti-Abortion rhetoric.

Opting out of religious instruction wasn't an option then in the 90's and even today, despite the community college my own kids being under the patronage of Dublin and Dun Laoghaire ETB, opting out of "religious education" (an oxymoron if ever I heard one, and a curriculum which is still dominated by Catholic teaching) still isn't a viable option unless parents are free to collect their child from the school for the duration of the classes. That's before we even get into the subject of the opportunity cost of wasting 4 hours a week that could be spent on a worthwhile topic...

Your last paragraph is intriguing. If you think that we shouldn't be removing religion from schools or society without having a replacement for it (humanism perhaps?), that implies that you believe there's a inherent value to religion. I'm struggling to see what this is? Marx's "opiate of the masses”?

Flinty997 · 10-11-2021 3:12pm

One idea that you're more likely to get people who see their work as vocation, and thus approach it differently, holistically even, rather just a job. Applied to lots of industries, education, health, social service.

Certainly debatable, and can be replaced with professionalism but often isn't. Peoples personal experiences will vary obviously.

10-11-2021 3:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146157#Comment_118146157

Good post.

Your last paragraph is intriguing. If you think that we shouldn't be removing religion from schools or society without having a replacement for it (humanism perhaps?), that implies that you believe there's a inherent value to religion. I'm struggling to see what this is? Marx's "opiate of the masses”?

I do think religion provides a structure for people to learn many of the basic morals and a sense of good behavior. At least, it provided a foundation for my own sense of morality, which my parents built on (with some overlap), but considering how much time I spent in school vs learning from my parents, the school teachings had a greater impact overall. At least, I have very good memories of the majority of my teachers, and the lessons they imparted that weren't directly related to the school curriculum. In my experience, Christianity, for all it's many faults, does tend to attract a lot of very gentle people to take up roles in teaching.

I would feel that society today is hell-bent on giving people freedom to think or do just about anything under the law, but while also, pushing (what I would consider) short-sighted initiatives, such as the recognition of gender theory and trans beliefs. There is a wide range of "woke" beliefs that have made their way into education, and depending on the country involved, those ideas are being taught to children. I'd see some value in religious schools, because they're unlikely to be teaching these social movements as fact, when they're still very much new ideas that haven't been properly tested and researched.

That said, if I felt there was a realistic alternative, whereby schools stayed away from the "social science" crap, and stuck to teaching primarily the skills/knowledge that children should be learning, along with common decency/morality, then I'd be very happy to support it. Perhaps non-religious schools are already doing that. I actually don't know.. although from chats with friends who are teachers, I think they're just as vulnerable as any other organisation to be teaching material that doesn't relate to skills/education aimed primarily to help them succeed in life.

Just thoughts btw. Nothing here is a definite and well-investigated belief. (obvious enough, I know, but I get the sense with boards these days, sometimes a disclaimer is needed for certain types of posts. Not for you, but for others reading)

Mrs OBumble · 10-11-2021 3:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145740#Comment_118145740

Like I said before, Google "non-denominational church ", and see if you really want a school like that.

10-11-2021 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145978#Comment_118145978

My experience of the Marist Brothers was a general lack of prayers, songs or anything religious in the classrooms. There were obvious activities such as the Church Choir or the Altar boys for those interested, but they even had a separate choir for those who wanted to compete for the national children's choir, but not be involved in the religious side of things. That was the mid 80's too btw.

I think there's a lot of variation when it comes to schools and how they operate, including that of the religious schools. My own schools didn't place much emphasis of the Catholic religion except for those families directly interested in it. For everyone else, there was something else. Whereas I know from a friend who went to a different school nearby, the religious aspect was seriously followed with many prayers, and reminders.

MichaelR · 10-11-2021 3:22pm

I would see the issue as far more nuanced than just "church is or is not involved" and "religious indoctrination is or is not present". I would ask:

Is there a comprehensive Relationship and Sex Education course reflecting Constitutional values?
Is there full support for LGBTQ students?
Is there sufficient provision for everyone in the area who wants education without sex segregation? In my view, being stuck in a segregated society damages people at a critical stage of growth. While I understand some parents can disagree, for all I know in many locations one has no co-ed option.

Flinty997 · 10-11-2021 3:24pm

I like the Japanese model of schools, when it comes to religion and the lack of it.

In Ireland I have been surprised by how much influence the church still has in thing like hospitals, and schools in the background. That's not immediately obvious in the day to day. Often associated with more fanatical side of things.

ahappychappy · 10-11-2021 4:15pm

@Flinty997 just checked with a few of the kids (friends of youngest) who attend local catholic school - still prayers morning, evening and lunch - I finished school in the mid '90s and this crack is still going on in wider Dublin area today. Your comments about the hospital brought back a happy memory of trying to convince the hospital Chaplin before I had surgery that I didn't want to say a decade (or know) of the rosary , despite me clearly stating i was not religious. I have memories of trying to prevent a rather enthusiastic Legion of Mary member handing my six month old a tiny miraculous medal - firstly as it was a chocking hazard and secondly as we are not religious. But he was horrified that I was "denying" my child a religion. The challenges other family members have had is organising a non religious funeral - things have improved but it can be a challenge depending on where you are geographically. Hopefully options continue to open up and become more inclusive.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-11-2021 5:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146347#Comment_118146347

Yeah I don't want a school to be like any kind of a church, thanks.

We already have a non-religious patronage model in Ireland which works well, Educate Together, problem is that there is far more demand for ETs than there are schools or places. Relying on new schools doesn't work as only certain areas have enough population growth. The divestment process is a complete failure and tbh was designed by the Department of Education to be a complete failure and maintain the status quo as much as possible.

Sleepy · 10-11-2021 5:18pm

Educate Together is multi-denominational, not non-religious. It still wastes an inordinate amount of time on religious nonsense.

10-11-2021 5:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146375#Comment_118146375

I like the Japanese model of schools, when it comes to religion and the lack of it.

Relatively easy to do when most of the population follow a less structured (more personal/private) belief such as Shintoism/Ancestor worship. The other faiths are made to follow suit.

Flinty997 · 10-11-2021 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118147039#Comment_118147039

Well we started down that road. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_school_(Ireland)#History

In the early nineteenth century, in a climate of animosity between the churches, the multi-denominational system was strongly opposed: the established church (Church of Ireland), though the church of the minority, held a special position and a right to government support in promoting Anglicanism.[10] Both the Roman Catholic Church, which was emerging from a period of suppression in Ireland, and the Protestant Presbyterians, who had also suffered under the penal laws, had sought state support for schools of their own tradition.[10]

Its interesting to see how we got from there to here.

Alex86Eire · 10-11-2021 7:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146690#Comment_118146690

I've very surprised by the three prayers a day. I've taught in several catholic schools and have never come across anything like this. There might be a prayer at a Christmas/Easter service or at a random assembly but never every week not to mind multiple times every day!

Hotblack Desiato · 10-11-2021 9:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146999#Comment_118146999

I didn't say it was non-religious, I said its patron was non-religious, that's not the same thing atall atall 😉 and yeah I'd prefer they didn't give credence to religious woo of any flavour, but at least they do so on an equal basis and don't push any religious belief onto kids.

ahappychappy · 10-11-2021 9:41pm

Yep I have been keeping my ears open as plenty of people who chose the Catholic school over the local ET were very judgemental over the lack of uniform and the fact kids wouldn't learn respect if they knew their teachers first name etc are a little taken aback at how out of step the new Catholic school is. Strangely my kids have the upmost respect for their teachers and ET team as they are all part of their school community. Before covid there was kids racing in to help the caretaker out with lunch deliveries. They haven't combusted from wearing comfortable clothes either😊. They have friends who marked varying religious celebrations and they were always happy to make a card or bring in a packet of Pokemon cards to mark the occasion. Amazingly without religious indoctrination they learn to be kind respectful individuals, who are encouraged to engage by a great group of men and women. School has such a huge impact on kids it's a big part of their little world. When they have teachers who "get" them it's gold.

10-11-2021 9:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145704#Comment_118145704

There’s plenty of evidence that catholic schools in Northern Ireland are doing much better than dull comprehensives in England.

the uK has plenty of religious schools, most of the elite schools, in fact.

10-11-2021 9:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118147663#Comment_118147663

Never once in my primary or secondary school did we have a prayer or even an assembly. How common is that anyway in Ireland?

Geuze · 11-11-2021 1:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145978#Comment_118145978

Yes, some of the posters seem to have gone to schools totally unlike what I experienced.

I attended primary school in the 80s, a typical school, owned by a church, there was the normal/usual Holy Communion and Confirmation, plus I served at mass, but I never felt any indoctrination. I do not recall any prayers in class, but to be fair, I could be wrong. There was a daily assembly, and okay, there may have been prayers at that.

My secondary was a CBS, again, no prayers as far as I recall, with maybe one, max two priests still on the staff, and no indoctrination.

We did go a retreat, I vaguely remember.

People seem to suggest that 1950s style education was happening in the 1990s.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-11-2021 1:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118148266#Comment_118148266

Must be all the prayin' 🙄 couldn't be anything to do with the fact that the nationalist community in NI has for many decades (due to discrimination in traditional industrial and state jobs) seen education as their only way forward. Nah. Must be the prayin'.

11-11-2021 1:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149090#Comment_118149090

I didn’t say anything about praying, except that it didn’t happen when I went to school.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-11-2021 1:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149064#Comment_118149064

there was the normal/usual Holy Communion and Confirmation, plus I served at mass, but I never felt any indoctrination.

It felt normal because everyone else was doing it and your parents had done it in their day too, but it absolutely was indoctrination. It means instruction in a religious doctrine, how can you say you were prepared for sacraments in the school without being instructed in catholic doctrine? plus they even got you to give up your spare time to be the priest's skivvy when you could have been out kicking a ball or doing any of the thousands of more worthwhile things a kid could have been doing.

Irish people are still so bet down they think this stuff as part of the everyday going to school experience is normal. It's not normal outside of theocracies.

Flinty997 · 11-11-2021 2:00am

Is he arguing we only think its normal because it is normal here.

Or its not normal regardless where it happens. Even if its normalized.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-11-2021 2:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149096#Comment_118149096

That's pretty unusual to say the least. But you do seem to be claiming that a religious patron school is intrinsically better, while ignoring the effects of culture and parental involvement / expectation. Got any evidence?

11-11-2021 10:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149117#Comment_118149117

But you do seem to be claiming that a religious patron school is intrinsically better, while ignoring the effects of culture and parental involvement / expectation. Got any evidence?

Where does he say that?