Why are there so few state owned / state run schools in Ireland?

Jeremy Sproket

The majority of schools here at both primary and secondary level are under the Catholic ethos. There are very few truly secular school.

The majority of the aforementioned schools are on Church property and therefore the Church has a huge say in how things are done (even if the teachers themselves are state employees).

The usual stock response from people is "if you have a problem with it then send your kids to an educate together". This is a baloney response as there often isn't an ET school for several kilometers from some people's homes.

We're a Christian family and we go to Church service most Sundays (my dad is Lutheran and my mam is CoI).

Why can't the state get their finger out and build secular schools or at least pay off the Catholic Church to take hold of the schools and get rid of religious instruction and sacraments in the classroom (which for some non-believers and people of other religions are a waste of time and a distraction from lessons).

Jaysus, for someone that never went to school here, you are obsessed!!

Jeremy Sproket

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089035#Comment_118089035

My two brothers do.

What's your point?

My taxes (of which I pay lots) go towards the school.

How does me not having have attended school here negate my right to voice an opinion on them?

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089068#Comment_118089068

We all pay tax , you're not unique with that that.

The vast majority of us were educated in schools with a religious ethos and did ok.

Of course you can have an opinion.

Is there an agenda? Are your brothers education not up to standard ?

Sonics2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089122#Comment_118089122

Sorry, not very interested in this thread as it's been done to death, but let's just clear it up quick. Many people don't have an option, you're working under an assumption all children have access to multiple schools, which is simply not true. My own children (and their mother) live in a rural town in the arsehole of Limerick, and there are two schools nearby. One primary, one secondary. Both are Catholic schools. Any truly non-denominational schools are far far out of reach for them to attend.

And please don't say "move closer to them" because given the housing market that is quite frankly not an option for even more people across the country.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089638#Comment_118089638

I'm not the OP

Jeremy Sproket

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090059#Comment_118090059

No one said you were (or even implied it).

Jeremy Sproket

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089122#Comment_118089122

I never said I was unique in being a tax payer. It was implied that I wasn't allowed to have an opinion because I wasn't schooled here, I said I was allowed to voice my opinion because my tax Euros fund sectarianism in Irish public schools. The Irish education system is deeply racist and sectarian.

I never said people didn't do well in Irish Catholic schools. Children probably did well being educated in Nazi Germany or North Korea (all whist being indoctrinated).

What agenda do you think I have??



🤡



World peace?

Mrs OBumble

Parents everywhere are free to pull finger and set up a school with ET as a Patron.

Most cannot be arsed doing so - and that is the basic reason why: the organisation which could be bothered has patronage of most schools.

Riddle101

This thread just made me think of this.

https://youtu.be/AG26IoRBuWQ

Seriously though, the church has had a huge involvement in education in Ireland for centuries so it's probably because of the historic significance that things are the way they are with schools. The government probably thinks it's just easier to let the church do it.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090123#Comment_118090123

Evidence please for your statement that the Irish education system is deeply racist.

beveragelady

OP, I was brought up an atheist, going to Catholic schools (Early 80s to mid 90s) and I now teach in a school with a Catholic ethos. Apart from the fact that I used to pick stupid fights with my unfortunate religion teachers and get the occasional classes off to go to masses when I was a student, the supposed ethos had no effect on my education.

Apart from the shadow of section 37 the ethos of my current school has no effect on my life. I actually used to teach religion, at this school and my last one. I have never had to be secretive about having been brought up an atheist. I hate section 37 but I do not know of one case where it has been implemented. I'd love to see a school try.

You have some weird axe to grind here. If you are, as you claim to be, a recent arrival to Ireland, I suggest you take a little longer to gather facts before you form your impressions of systemic racism.

Section 37... https://www.ihrec.ie/app/uploads/download/pdf/recommendation_paper_re_section_37_amendment.pdf

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090123#Comment_118090123

How is the Irish education system racist or even sectarian?

FYI I agree we need more non denominational schools not run by the church but this statement is pretty absurd.

Sonics2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090059#Comment_118090059

I didn't say you were, I was directly replying to the claim that people have options. They really don't.

edit: as for the OP's claim of racism in the Irish educational system, I'd love to see proof of that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090123#Comment_118090123

'The Irish education system is deeply racist and sectarian.'

Any evidence of this whatsoever?

I didn't go to primary school in this country either, apart from 6th class. I didn't see any racism. Definitely not in secondary school.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090682#Comment_118090682

To err is human.

Ubbquittious

Educate together is the school of choice for "helicopter parents"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091459#Comment_118091459

What's a helicopter parent?

riclad

We are in a housing crisis , we need 25k housing units built every year just to keep up with demand, the government , the government can't afford to build 100s of new schools.

If you are a parent you have no choice probably since 95 per cent of schools are owned by the Catholic Church , its only since the 90s that people even started asking for a choice of schooling options

Schools are not a priority right now as we recover from the pandemic

This goes back 100 years most schools and hospitals were funded by the Catholic Church most schools are staffed by ordinary teachers they just follow the Catholic ethos in subjects like religion sex education etc it does not effect teaching Irish maths etc

Geuze

There are plenty of State-owned schools at second level (ETB), but few at primary level.

Taking the GRETB as an example, they have 19 second level, and two primary schools.

Geuze

It is curious................in Ireland people call for the churches to pull back from education, and for the State to own and run more schools...........while in the UK, I hear that some people actually go as far as moving house to be closer to church-run schools, and so avoid State owned schools.

elefant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090354#Comment_118090354

The state should be bothered. It's not up to individual citizens to provide suitable, modern education for children in Ireland.

Geuze

Given the waiting list and waiting times in State-owned hospitals, and given the numerous other examples of State inefficiency, would you want the State to run more schools?

Example: this guy claimed his two dead parents pensions for 33 years. Would you want that organisation running more schools?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/son-drew-pensions-of-dead-parents-for-33-years-40828264.html

I'm sure the ETB are good, but I don't want them to have a monopoly.

riclad

The state could build schools and then let local appointed boards or educate together run them

jahalpin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058215428/why-are-there-so-few-state-owned-state-run-schools-in-ireland

The COI and other churches also run schools around Ireland, it is not just the Catholic Church but the majority of religious school are going to be run by them as the vast majority of the population are Catholic

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118094610#Comment_118094610

You want a public servant sitting in an office a long way away from your town to be responsible for building and hiring staff for schools in your town? Think a bit harder about how well that would work.

Local patronage is critical for making the system effective.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118094684#Comment_118094684

Yeah, let’s have an organisation steeped in kiddie fiddling and the covering up of it running schools. 🙄

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118095081#Comment_118095081

They do this already = ETBs.

Montage of Feck

Went to a regular national school, even as a child I despised the holy Joe types and I didn't learn the prayers or any of that ****. It's actually quite easy to avoid the supposed indoctrination of the church, if anything it's the consumerist agenda that has infiltrated church sagrements such as first communion which has become bouncy castle season.

If you have anyway half sane parents it should be an issue anyway. I think its good to have an ethos that isn't connected to commercial or political interests, it has resulted in quite an egalitarian system compared to other anglophone countries.

Zebra3

Yeah, let’s teach kids that zombies, “god”, talking donkeys and the rest of that nonsense is real.

Oh, and let’s turn the genocide of this god character in to an amusing story for kids.

Most schools in this country are state schools.

They have a link with the church (and I agree the two should be separate) but they're still state schools. They're not private entities rolled by the church as you're misrepresenting them OP. If they weren't state schools you wouldn't be paying taxes towards them.

And no, the Irish education system isn't deeply racist (any elaboration at this point?) With that shoite you're just cementing people's suspicion of you as not being genuine.

Freddie Mcinerney

What does ET stand for?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143822#Comment_118143822

Educate Together. Non denominational.

Freddie Mcinerney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143834#Comment_118143834

Thanks.

Strumms

if a law was made that outlawed the various churches having an input in education it would cost the state multiple billions probably.. that’s just to procure the schools...

there are 3 boys and 1 girls secondary schools within a 6 kilometer radius from me, all religious.... at a guess about 70-80 acres of land including car parks, school buildings, playing fields and pitches.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089638#Comment_118089638

You can keep them out of religions classes. I went to school 20 years ago in a catholic secondary school and the amount of religious education was close to zero. There were no religious teachers, no prayers, and religion as a subject was basically taught by secular teachers who talked about American imperialism. Civics classes mostly.

EDIT:

Of course primary school is different. I would get rid of confirmation and communion myself.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143753#Comment_118143753

Well that's true in practice but not really in law, most are still owned by the Catholic Church.

Terry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058215428/why-are-there-so-few-state-owned-state-run-schools-in-ireland

The first government of the Irish Free State made a deal with the Catholic Church.

The church provided the land for schools, and in exchange, the schools would teach (force upon the kids) Catholicism.

At the end of the day, all Christian religions are the same. Believe in god, or go to hell. Just go with it. Your kids are going to grow up and realise that it's all lies anyway.

Freddie Mcinerney

I went to a convent style school in the 70s. Had a wooden measurement ruler for measuring curtains from my mother. Got into some friction with a nun. She wanted to hit me with the ruler. I replied back, if you do I'll be hitting you. Herself and the head nun shut up quickly.

Grab All Association

There’s Muslim school girls in Thurles going to Catholic schools in the town wearing hijabs. Schools obviously respect their faith otherwise they’d have went to the VEC run colaiste mhuire

wotzgoingon

I didn't read through the thread so may have been mentioned before but I went to primary school in the 80's and loved all the Catholic stuff. The church was only down the road and we used to walk over for practicing communion and confirmation and also first confession and then there was the religious stories the teacher would tell. One year we even had a nun teaching us. She was great craic.

Shao Kahn

All religious indoctrination of children, should be outlawed in the state.

Within schools, and everywhere else where it takes place. It's child abuse!

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143988#Comment_118143988

Why not just take all the schools, and pay nothing for them?

The church stole all of the land and buildings off the people over the centuries anyway.

Was talking to a local priest a few years ago, nice enough chap. There was a hole in the church roof, and he said they didn't have the money to fix it. Asked him could he not just get a ladder and fix it. Said the ladder was stolen, and didn't have money for a new ladder. lol

It's getting bad when you can't afford a new ladder. It's only a matter of time before most of the land and buildings of the church will be derelict and falling apart anyway. There's simply not enough active "true believers" anymore to keep the show on the road.

Sometimes the term "child abuse" can really be... abused.

Confirmation and communion events are optional. Religion classes are optional. There are Muslims going to Catholic schools without any problems.

I went to Catholic schools and didn't have any bad experiences due to its religious intent. The teachers and administrators were essentially good people, flawed, but then, nobody is perfect. Certainly none of the abusive behavior that many posters online seem to think happens everywhere there's a priest.

As for the hate for religion, I'm agnostic but was raised within the Catholic belief system, and it provided the foundation for a wide range of my moral beliefs, tempered by life experience, but it's there nonetheless. People are in such a rush to remove religion from society, but society today is not terribly good at teaching good morals, and there's more than enough bad parenting as well.

The days of being whipped into believing/accepting catholic beliefs is well gone. I see no problem with the existing status of religion in Irish society.. and would be happy that it remain at this level, as opposed to disappearing entirely.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058215428/why-are-there-so-few-state-owned-state-run-schools-in-ireland

Because the change from people not wanting religion in schools is relatively recent. It won't change over night. The ET schools get built usually through local lobbying. From people wanting it built.

Being realistic if you live in the middle of nowhere you are going to get these changes last. Maybe even never if there isn't enough local demand.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137949#Comment_118137949

In sports too. Do you get rid of them too.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139476#Comment_118139476

Not a bit fan of movies and books then I guess.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143834#Comment_118143834

Are you sure ET are non-denominational?

Are they not multi denominational?

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144365#Comment_118144365

I often wonder do some people live in the real world?

If there are attempts are indoctrination happening in schools (hint: there aren't), then it's not working very well, as church attendance is falling!!!

I have children in a church-owned school, and obviously there isn't any indoctrination.

Some people seem to think it's 1921, not 2021.

Or that Ireland is full of madrasa schools.