Prop gun accident kills cinematographer and injures director

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097137#Comment_118097137

But the thing is on American movie sets, if you have 'blank firing props' that are capable of firing real bullets you'll apparently have wasters in the crew who'll be putting real bullets in them and using them for target practice during downtime on the shoot. So I'm saying should have essentially toy guns incapable of firing real ammo that look exactly like the real thing for film and tv work. Maybe have some tiny watermark on them so cast and crew can check they're not a real gun.

conorhal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118094648#Comment_118094648

A lot of productions use prop guns with a gas cannister to generate muzzle flash these days, but that's really only practicable if the character is firing automatic weapons, typically machine-guns. It's not an option if you're making a period piece using old timey six shooters.

Many productions since the advent of CGI employ digital muzzle flash added later in post production. But there are two problems with that, one it looks terribly fake because you don't get the interactive lighting caused by a practical muzzle flash on set and you are left with very little verisimilitude in a scene that involves actors walking around going 'pew-pew' at each other. Like it or not, an actor reacts viscerally to blanks in a way that they just wont if a director is just shouting 'bang-bang' from behind a camera as a queue to the actors. The John Wick movies employ digital muzzle flash a lot, which is one of the reasons the gunfights in those movies tend to feel so video-gamey.

Sad Professor

It's still not really clear what happened here and there's a lot of confusion over what a live round means in this context and whether a real bullet was in the chamber. If it was a real bullet rather than a blank (which can also kill but is far more likely to be ruled an accident) then this could easily end with criminal charges being filed against someone.

Mostly this seems to have been a case of negligence by the armourer, though if the various reports about the incompetency of this person are true then the producers will also be trouble.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097438#Comment_118097438

I'm not sure I agree with any of that.

Quite a few of these things are known. They are just waiting to be officially confirmed. There isn't just person in the loop on this.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097438#Comment_118097438

I don't think this was a blank. The projectile passed through Halyna Hutchin's chest and also injured Joel Souza in the clavicle. No blank is going to do that.

There's been accounts of crew members shooting beer cans with live ammo between scenes.

There's also a matter about unionised staff and non-unionised staff on the set of 'Rust'. It appears that the union staff were told to pack their bags because cheaper non-unionised staff were brought in. Whether that had any impact on the team of Hannah Gutierrez-Reed (the armourer) is unclear.

Quantum Erasure

well, thats something I didnt expect to hear. They're to resume filming on Rust,

https://www.buzz.ie/movies/alec-baldwins-rust-production-resume-28163323?

Tony EH

A lot of potential money to be made on the back of the shooting, with the prospect of ghouls checking the film out because somebody died on set.

CastorTroy

Didn't harm The Crow. It is one of those "would it have done as well if it wasn't for Brandon's death"

Jayziz was not expecting that alright.

All publicity is good publicity then.

Agent Coulson

Baldwin is now suing the crew of the movie for negligence.

He wants his name cleared and say it has cost him jobs.

Just days before the Santa Fe District Attorney is expected to announced her intentions in the fatal shooting of Rust cinematographer Halyna Hutchins by Alec Baldwin last year, the actor Friday has slammed crew members of the indie Western with a negligence lawsuit.

Filed on a day when Los Angeles Superior Court is closed for the Veterans Day holiday, the photo- and email-heavy cross-complaint for negligence and indemnification names Rust armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed, first assistant director David Halls, property master Sarah Zachry, and weapons and rounds supplier Seth Kenney and his company as defendants.

“This tragedy happened because live bullets were delivered to the set and loaded into the gun, Gutierrez-Reed failed to check the bullets or the gun carefully, Halls failed to check the gun carefully and yet announced the gun was safe before handing it to Baldwin, and Zachry failed to disclose that Gutierrez-Reed had been acting recklessly off set and was a safety risk to those around her,” says the cross complaint (read it here) from Baldwin’s Quinn Emanuel attorney Luke Nikas.

Recently having settled a wrongful death suit with Hutchins’ husband and family and intending to get Rust back on track, Baldwin has long declared he never pulled the trigger on the 1880s period gun that he was pointing at Hutchins on October 21, 2021.

In a move that risks backfiring on Baldwin, today’s filing makes a point of noting how the aftermath of the shooting has impacted his career.

“Baldwin has also lost numerous job opportunities and associated income,” it says. “For example, he’s been fired from multiple jobs expressly because of the incident on Rust and has been passed over for other opportunities, which is a direct result of the negligence of Cross-Defendants Gutierrez-Reed, Halls, Kenney, PDQ, and Zachry.” 

Coming just over a week after Baldwin failed to convince a LASC judge to remove him from Rust script supervisor Mamie Mitchell’s own negligence lawsuit or see the matter dismissed, Friday’s filing also claims the Emmy winner has suffered personal consequences from the horrible October 2021 incident.

“More than anyone else on that set, Baldwin has been wrongfully viewed as the perpetrator of this tragedy,” the actor’s lawyer writes of his client. “By these Cross-Claims, Baldwin seeks to clear his name and hold Cross-Defendants accountable for their misconduct.”...........

https://deadline.com/2022/11/alec-baldwin-lawsuit-rust-film-shooting-cross-complaint-suffering-1235170586/

JP Liz V1

Involuntary Manslaughter charges brought against Baldwin and the armoury supervisor

RickBlaine

Does anyone know if he is being charged in his capacity as a producer of the film, or because he physically fired the gun? I haven't been keeping updated on this story, but if the armoury supervisor told him the gun was cold and safe, and there are witnesses to prove that, I don't see how he could be held responsible because he pressed the trigger. Being one of the producers is a different story though and that role may come with additional legal responsibilities regarding safety of cast and crew.

TheIrishGrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120131336#Comment_120131336

I would imagine as his capacity as a producer

Data Analyst

This will be an interesting case and someone needs to be accountable for the loss of this young woman’s life.

I don’t believe Baldwin has been completely transparent on what happen that day and what he knows.

TheIrishGrover

Yeah. I mean, is the actor who fired the prob (In this case also Baldwin) responsible for doing what they were told to do? Or the production team as overall management? Surely the overall management (ALSO Baldwin of course). I mean think of the whole thing with Brandon Lee in The Crow (If any of ye are that old 😀)

silverharp

there were reportedly complaint on set about gun safety leading up to this, so he is certainly on the hook as a producer, though begs the question what complaints could you have about fake guns?

,there is one school of thought that actors shouldnt be responsible, while people trained in firearms say the final responsibility rests with the user. I'd go with the latter, if you are being paid obscene amounts of money the least one should be obliged to do is regular gun courses , not least it would make them better actors

o1s1n

I wonder will any parallels be drawn between this and the accidental shooting of Brandon Lee by Michael Massee.

Fairly sure Massee was not charged with anything.

Sad Professor

The charge isn't against him as a producer. If it was then all the other producers would be on there too. It's on the grounds that he fired the prop. This was probably inevitable which is why he claimed from the beginning that he didn't pull the trigger and it misfired. Either way it was clearly an accident. Axe grinding aside, I really don't see how he can be blamed.

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120133561#Comment_120133561

I've read that standard protocol on film sets is that everyone who handles a gun examines it to confirm it's safe before using it, even actors, and even if they've been told it's safe.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120133561#Comment_120133561

it might be a convenient way of making sure he isnt convicted, if the on set was poorly run there should be someone charged with corporate manslaughter/negligence or whatever it would be in this situation

Sad Professor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120133622#Comment_120133622

I didn't think that applied to actors. I would have thought that was the responsibility of the armorer or AD or whoever handed it to them. Sure, maybe the actor should be checking too but that might be difficult in some circumstances. They are just actors after all. What if in checking the gun the actor accidently made it unsafe or fired it in error while trying to remember their lines? What's the point of having an armorer etc if you can't trust them?

A lot of dangerous stunts take place on film sets in which actors (and crew) are trusting other people to keep them safe. Accidents can and do happen and people die sometimes. I don't think this one was any different except that it involved a gun which is a big issue in the US and seems to have confounded how people traditionally understand such accidents and how they can be prevented.

Potential-Monke

I know from every time I've ever fired a gun, when it was handed to me I had to check it was clear myself before walking away. If I didn't, I'd be called back. In the RDF, they'd sometimes test you on this, leave a round (blank) in there to see if you check. This should 100% be the responsibility of the actor also. If someone hands you a gun, you check it regardless. It's basic gun safety. I couldn't are less they are acting, they're still handling firearms and still have some responsibility. If you can't display correct gun safety, then you shouldn't be using them, props or not imo. In fact, maybe it should be a skill actors need to have in order to take roles that involve gun use. I'm sure Keanu checks every gun that's handed to him on set. People with no training or experience in guns should not be handed guns, full stop.

While it failed at many stages up to handing it to Baldwin, he should have checked also, and I've no doubt it will come up in the case. It is shocking though that the gun safety was so lax. I assume it's the 'Merican approach to gun safety, ie: you're safe if you have a gun. I can see him getting convicted tbh.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154061#Comment_120154061

Indeed and the fact that you're actually pointing the props at people means you should be operating at an even stricter level of safety.

Gun's are just so endemic and a way of life over in the US I take it a lot of folks are just completely complacent when it comes to handling them.

Tony EH

Well, as said earlier, I'd say a lot of this accident comes down to the fact that the unionised, regulated, staff in charge of props were fired (pardon the pun), and cheaper non-union staff were hired instead. They probably had, how shall we say, a more relaxed attitude to the safety of people on the set.

There may be some culpability upon Baldwin to have checked the gun, but he certainly wouldn't be the first person to assume that it had been checked (or should have) multiple times before it got to his hands.

Potential-Monke

And this is where assumptions in relation to firearms leads us unfortunately. One should never assume anything with firearms.

Tony EH

...or maybe don't fire the staff that know what they're doing just to make a cheap buck.

Sad Professor

Was it ever explained how a real bullet ended up in the gun? Because whoever did or allowed that to happen is surely primarily responsible for this. Aren't blanks often fired at actors or at the camera on movie sets? If a real bullet was mixed in with the dummies, how could the actor be expected to know?

Tow

There is stories of them doing target practice/firing at tin cans.

It should also be noted that firing blanks is also dangerous, i know of at least one actor who was killed by a blank.

JP Liz V1

Alec Baldwin has been indicted by a grand jury in New Mexico on new charges of involuntary manslaughter stemming from the shooting death of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins

Thr trial of Hannah Gutierrez armourer is on YouTube and I'm finding it very interesting indeed.

Lots of discussion of live rounds, dummies, blanks and how they were handled, lost etc etc

https://youtu.be/jsB1b5k45sg?si=mjXxqdqzaTC1_Y7E

expectationlost

baldwin unfortunate in this

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121855167#Comment_121855167

Was a producer on a film with negligent safety protocols and controls, and the latest analysis has suggested he pulled the trigger of the weapon while pointing it at people. (Even with blanks, you are still never supposed to actually point it at someone - sight lines are cheated).

Obviously not intentional, but hard to say unfortunate if there wasn’t proper duty of care.

ohnonotgmail

For those interested this is the best theory I've seen as to how the weapon fired. Baldwin claimed he didn't pull the trigger. This is entirely possibly. The theory is that while he didn't pull the trigger he did have his finger ON the trigger when he cocked the firearm.

https://youtu.be/d5NI1fTx8tI?si=dNymE-FxL6JVSg4L

Agent Coulson

Gun armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed has been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859479#Comment_121859479

Hannah Gutierrez-Reed faces 3 years in prison

Not looking good for Baldwin

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859508#Comment_121859508

I read that this could be good for Baldwin because his lawyers can argue the “person responsible” has been convicted.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162179#Comment_120162179

That is the same question I came here to ask.

I have tried a few times to find this out.

The “journalism” on many websites is appalling and often contradictory. I ended up not sure if it was a real bullet or it was a blank.

Reed looks very young and I didn’t understand how she could have had the experience for such a responsibility. Just read on her previous job on a Nicolas Cage western that many had complained about her handling of weapons and Cage walked off the set because of her.

So that answers my question about her experience.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121862392#Comment_121862392

There can be more than one person responsible for a crime.

expectationlost

nepo baby armourer

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121862392#Comment_121862392

Yes, the armourer who allowed live rounds is primarily responsible, however there are a whole bunch of extra steps for safety redundancy, which Baldwin was negligent on.

In terms of blanks being fired at other actors or camera - they're actually never fired straight at other actors, the sight lines are always cheated so it just looks like that. When they fire at camera, there are always clear bulletproof sheets in the way between the DoP/AC and the actor. And, importantly, at any time other than when they're actually shooting the scene the actor's finger should not be on the trigger, and they should never point the gun at anyone without the above mentioned protections. It would seem Baldwin was negligent on both counts there.

The best way to think of the rules is that all weapons on set are to be treated as if they are live.

expectationlost

nm

JP Liz V1

From NY Times

Mr. Baldwin was rehearsing with a revolver when it fired a live round, killing the cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounding the film’s director. Mr. Baldwin has repeatedly denied responsibility for the tragedy, noting that he was told that the gun did not contain any live rounds and that live ammunition is supposed to be banned on sets.

Mr. Baldwin has denied pulling the trigger, saying that the gun discharged after he pulled the hammer back and released it. A forensic report commissioned by the prosecution determined that he must have pulled the trigger for it to go off.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121862753#Comment_121862753

Yes, but this gives them opportunity to deflect the blame from him. Might work, might not.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121863423#Comment_121863423

How do live rounds end up in a case of dummies?

do weapons manufacturers make both at the same factory ? That seems epically stupid.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890961#Comment_121890961

Blanks are normally made by the armourer by pulling apart live rounds.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121891129#Comment_121891129

Okay, that is something I never knew.

Thank you.

JP Liz V1

Trial Dismissed

https://www.eonline.com/news/1399487/alec-baldwins-rust-shooting-trial-dismissed-with-prejudice

Frank Bullitt

Crazy, the prosecution withheld evidence that the defence used, not only that, it knew it would so put a different case number on the evidence bag to try hide it.

Lord have mercy

Agent Coulson

Will the armour who is in prison see their sentence thrown out now?

expectationlost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122374221#Comment_122374221

Teske, who was listed as a witness for the defense for Gutierrez's trial
but was never called, said on the video that her defense did not want
the ammunition.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/alec-baldwin-trial-day-3-motion-hearing-ammunition/story?id=111883104