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Prop gun accident kills cinematographer and injures director

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  • Registered Users Posts: 85,374 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Involuntary Manslaughter charges brought against Baldwin and the armoury supervisor



  • Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭RickBlaine


    Does anyone know if he is being charged in his capacity as a producer of the film, or because he physically fired the gun? I haven't been keeping updated on this story, but if the armoury supervisor told him the gun was cold and safe, and there are witnesses to prove that, I don't see how he could be held responsible because he pressed the trigger. Being one of the producers is a different story though and that role may come with additional legal responsibilities regarding safety of cast and crew.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,985 ✭✭✭TheIrishGrover




  • Registered Users Posts: 33 Data Analyst


    This will be an interesting case and someone needs to be accountable for the loss of this young woman’s life.

    I don’t believe Baldwin has been completely transparent on what happen that day and what he knows.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,985 ✭✭✭TheIrishGrover


    Yeah. I mean, is the actor who fired the prob (In this case also Baldwin) responsible for doing what they were told to do? Or the production team as overall management? Surely the overall management (ALSO Baldwin of course). I mean think of the whole thing with Brandon Lee in The Crow (If any of ye are that old 😀)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    there were reportedly complaint on set about gun safety leading up to this, so he is certainly on the hook as a producer, though begs the question what complaints could you have about fake guns?

    ,there is one school of thought that actors shouldnt be responsible, while people trained in firearms say the final responsibility rests with the user. I'd go with the latter, if you are being paid obscene amounts of money the least one should be obliged to do is regular gun courses , not least it would make them better actors

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,544 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    I wonder will any parallels be drawn between this and the accidental shooting of Brandon Lee by Michael Massee.

    Fairly sure Massee was not charged with anything.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,671 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    The charge isn't against him as a producer. If it was then all the other producers would be on there too. It's on the grounds that he fired the prop. This was probably inevitable which is why he claimed from the beginning that he didn't pull the trigger and it misfired. Either way it was clearly an accident. Axe grinding aside, I really don't see how he can be blamed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,542 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    I've read that standard protocol on film sets is that everyone who handles a gun examines it to confirm it's safe before using it, even actors, and even if they've been told it's safe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    it might be a convenient way of making sure he isnt convicted, if the on set was poorly run there should be someone charged with corporate manslaughter/negligence or whatever it would be in this situation

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,671 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    I didn't think that applied to actors. I would have thought that was the responsibility of the armorer or AD or whoever handed it to them. Sure, maybe the actor should be checking too but that might be difficult in some circumstances. They are just actors after all. What if in checking the gun the actor accidently made it unsafe or fired it in error while trying to remember their lines? What's the point of having an armorer etc if you can't trust them?

    A lot of dangerous stunts take place on film sets in which actors (and crew) are trusting other people to keep them safe. Accidents can and do happen and people die sometimes. I don't think this one was any different except that it involved a gun which is a big issue in the US and seems to have confounded how people traditionally understand such accidents and how they can be prevented.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    I know from every time I've ever fired a gun, when it was handed to me I had to check it was clear myself before walking away. If I didn't, I'd be called back. In the RDF, they'd sometimes test you on this, leave a round (blank) in there to see if you check. This should 100% be the responsibility of the actor also. If someone hands you a gun, you check it regardless. It's basic gun safety. I couldn't are less they are acting, they're still handling firearms and still have some responsibility. If you can't display correct gun safety, then you shouldn't be using them, props or not imo. In fact, maybe it should be a skill actors need to have in order to take roles that involve gun use. I'm sure Keanu checks every gun that's handed to him on set. People with no training or experience in guns should not be handed guns, full stop.

    While it failed at many stages up to handing it to Baldwin, he should have checked also, and I've no doubt it will come up in the case. It is shocking though that the gun safety was so lax. I assume it's the 'Merican approach to gun safety, ie: you're safe if you have a gun. I can see him getting convicted tbh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,544 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Indeed and the fact that you're actually pointing the props at people means you should be operating at an even stricter level of safety.

    Gun's are just so endemic and a way of life over in the US I take it a lot of folks are just completely complacent when it comes to handling them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,975 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Well, as said earlier, I'd say a lot of this accident comes down to the fact that the unionised, regulated, staff in charge of props were fired (pardon the pun), and cheaper non-union staff were hired instead. They probably had, how shall we say, a more relaxed attitude to the safety of people on the set.

    There may be some culpability upon Baldwin to have checked the gun, but he certainly wouldn't be the first person to assume that it had been checked (or should have) multiple times before it got to his hands.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    And this is where assumptions in relation to firearms leads us unfortunately. One should never assume anything with firearms.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,975 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    ...or maybe don't fire the staff that know what they're doing just to make a cheap buck.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,671 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    Was it ever explained how a real bullet ended up in the gun? Because whoever did or allowed that to happen is surely primarily responsible for this. Aren't blanks often fired at actors or at the camera on movie sets? If a real bullet was mixed in with the dummies, how could the actor be expected to know?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,656 ✭✭✭Tow


    There is stories of them doing target practice/firing at tin cans.

    It should also be noted that firing blanks is also dangerous, i know of at least one actor who was killed by a blank.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



  • Registered Users Posts: 85,374 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Alec Baldwin has been indicted by a grand jury in New Mexico on new charges of involuntary manslaughter stemming from the shooting death of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,529 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    Thr trial of Hannah Gutierrez armourer is on YouTube and I'm finding it very interesting indeed.

    Lots of discussion of live rounds, dummies, blanks and how they were handled, lost etc etc





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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,770 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    baldwin unfortunate in this



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,041 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    Was a producer on a film with negligent safety protocols and controls, and the latest analysis has suggested he pulled the trigger of the weapon while pointing it at people. (Even with blanks, you are still never supposed to actually point it at someone - sight lines are cheated).

    Obviously not intentional, but hard to say unfortunate if there wasn’t proper duty of care.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,205 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    For those interested this is the best theory I've seen as to how the weapon fired. Baldwin claimed he didn't pull the trigger. This is entirely possibly. The theory is that while he didn't pull the trigger he did have his finger ON the trigger when he cocked the firearm.




  • Registered Users Posts: 60,367 ✭✭✭✭Agent Coulson


    Gun armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed has been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 85,374 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Hannah Gutierrez-Reed faces 3 years in prison

    Not looking good for Baldwin



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,196 ✭✭✭Spon Farmer


    I read that this could be good for Baldwin because his lawyers can argue the “person responsible” has been convicted.

    That is the same question I came here to ask.

    I have tried a few times to find this out.

    The “journalism” on many websites is appalling and often contradictory. I ended up not sure if it was a real bullet or it was a blank.

    Reed looks very young and I didn’t understand how she could have had the experience for such a responsibility. Just read on her previous job on a Nicolas Cage western that many had complained about her handling of weapons and Cage walked off the set because of her.

    So that answers my question about her experience.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,205 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    There can be more than one person responsible for a crime.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,770 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    nepo baby armourer



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,041 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    Yes, the armourer who allowed live rounds is primarily responsible, however there are a whole bunch of extra steps for safety redundancy, which Baldwin was negligent on.

    In terms of blanks being fired at other actors or camera - they're actually never fired straight at other actors, the sight lines are always cheated so it just looks like that. When they fire at camera, there are always clear bulletproof sheets in the way between the DoP/AC and the actor. And, importantly, at any time other than when they're actually shooting the scene the actor's finger should not be on the trigger, and they should never point the gun at anyone without the above mentioned protections. It would seem Baldwin was negligent on both counts there.

    The best way to think of the rules is that all weapons on set are to be treated as if they are live.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,770 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    nm



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