Fine Gael Demographic

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118105141#Comment_118105141

The assumption is it would be predominantly ex-FF, and themore working-class, left-leaning elements of their support.

Good loser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101105#Comment_118101105

They say there is no accounting for 'taste'. Guess the same applies to 'judgement'.

I recently shared a table with an anti-vaccer who was a climate change denier, anti abortion, anti the EU (probably a Leaver) and admirer of Nigel Farage. Yes that Nigel!!

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096339#Comment_118096339

This shows clearly that Sinn Fein are nothing but an empty vessel of populist fever. They stoke the masses in indignation - we want the pubs open, we want the pubs closed - without any regard to principle or anything else.

The u-turn on the SCC is being dismissed routinely as if it is nothing important, people are probably deleting tweets from their accounts to hide their embarrassment.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114083#Comment_118114083

The Fine Gael demographic (the thread is about them after all) never batted an eyelid when they climbed down from long held and apparently deeply held convictions on abortion, SSM and adoption etc.

Parties evolve to different positions. If the original position was a redline for you then you leave the party or withdraw support. Like Lucinda Creighton for instance.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114184#Comment_118114184

What deeply held convictions did the FG party have on any of those issues?

You should be able to produce policy pamphlets on them if they were deeply held. And I don't mean digging out some old Oliver Flanagan speeches from before he joined FG which seems to be your normal approach.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116755#Comment_118116755

Deep enough to oppose them for years and then when the wind changed enough cast them aside. The cynic would say, for political advantage.

Polling ahead of the referendum showed it was FG and FF supporters who were most against it.

FG and FF are the most conservative parties in the country after all. No big surprise saying that.

Political party's change position when they can bring their membership with them. No big surprise there either.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118119962#Comment_118119962

You are obviously too young to remember Garret's Constitutional Crusade when he tried to bring in many reforms during the 1980s.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118119974#Comment_118119974

And failed on most of them because his membership wasn't ready blanch. My point well proved there, thanks!

P.S. Garret was the leader of FG, he wasn't 'FG'. FG have always been conservative on these issues.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118119986#Comment_118119986

Wrong again, Francie. He was defeated because the "republicans" in this country couldn't stomach the reform.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122634#Comment_118122634

Actually it was Garret's own vagueness and playing to a certain demographic that was the problem.

When tied down on what he actually wanted to reform he came undone.

Remember him being asked (I was in student politics at the time) what his plans were re: women's rights, and his answer was along the lines of 'The government have an unalterable objection to abortion services'.

Not the exact quote but the word 'unalterable' certainly was in it as it provoked placards on student rallies which I remember painting.

What ever reforms Garrett blathered about were defeated from within.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122823#Comment_118122823

You can make the argument that in the 1980s, Fine Gael was divided on the issue of abortion, reflecting the stronger hold that the Church had on society at that time. However, their position is now utterly clear.

There are other parties in the State, who still to this day have divided views. Fianna Fail is one, Sinn Fein is another, having a different view depending on which jurisdiction it is operating in.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124073#Comment_118124073

Do you understand the meaning of 'unalterable'?

Does it sound to you that when a 'reforming' Taoiseach said that that he was presiding over division?

You are spinning like a top to avoid admitting your claim that there were no 'deeply held convictions' not to mention trying to get your favourite subject introduced by way of deflection.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124095#Comment_118124095

Maybe I am wrong, but I seem to recall Fine Gael allowing free votes in the Dail on a number of occasions in the 1980s on such issues.

The leadership of Garret was clear on the issue, but there were some laggards. As I said, FG are now clearly a socially liberal party with the departure of Lucinda being the last throw of the conservative dice. That simply can't be said of the other two large parties who both contain deep reserves of illiberal politicians and illiberal policies.

If you want to vote for socially liberal policies and you want to vote for one of the three biggest parties, FG are your only choice.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124104#Comment_118124104

'Unalterable'...until the wind changes, then we are all for it.

FG in a nutshell.

Brussels Sprout

On the Irish Times Politics podcast a few weeks ago they referenced a quote from Enda Kenny along the lines of:

"Had you told me prior to the 2011 general election that I would preside over a government that would enact Abortion legislation and back same sex marriage I would have told you that you were mad."

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124363#Comment_118124363

The coalition/merger will doubtless be saying the same thing about climate legislation in 20 years. jumping on bandwagons after resisting reform (as they did on SSM and adoption) is not true social liberalism but can be claimed as such if you have no shame, I suppose.

Leonard Hofstadter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118092811#Comment_118092811

I agree 100% with you on this. I was brought up in a Fine Gael household and I would have always voted for them, and I was very proud to have done so, indeed I did in 2020 despite the tide clearly running out on them and my own judgement on their performance clearly being out of touch with the public at large.

I thought they handled Covid very, very well and they deserve a lot of credit for that. I also thought Leo and Simon Coveney handled Brexit very well indeed, and that was another reason to vote for them, and be proud to say I would vote for them. And yet, I would struggle to vote for them now. They should have gone for another election back in May-June last year when they had a proper chance and we could have had a radically different Government to the one we have now.

I feel betrayed by their decision to go into Government for a third time. I couldn't care less about going in with FF, those days are all gone and are never going back. What I could not stomach, and still cannot stomach, is how bereft the leadership of the party is in terms of backbone and the willingness to stand up for the sorts of values that FG stands for - or rather, used to stand for. They gave the Greens everything they wanted (with the kitchen sink thrown in for good measure) and I genuinely cannot see what exactly Fine Gael got in return enriching Leo, Simon and the other Ministers. I do not see any evidence whatsoever of FG values being implemented in this Government, if there is, I'd like to see evidence. I would have always voted for them because they were the party that believed in law and order, keeping a lid on spending, looking after people 'get up early in the morning', rural Ireland, our farmers, being pro-business (small and large alike), putting the national interest above party political interest, holding high standards in public office, being more socially liberal than FF (and some elements of SF). Those are classic FG values, and are values worth having in my opinion. I saw evidence of these values being implemented in the 2011-2016 Government, and to a lesser extent in the minority Government, so that's why I voted for them - and happily so. As I see no evidence of these values being implemented in this Government (except some elements of being pro-enterprise at times perhaps), and thus having come to the conclusion that FG is no longer looking out for the people that would typically vote for them, why should we return the favour?

The books are still nowhere even close to being balanced despite record growth this year. Their track record on housing speaks for itself.

You would think listening to recent announcements on the National Development Plan and the Climate Action Plan that FG is like a fake Green party, but why vote for a synthetic Green party when I can vote for the real thing?

That in a nutshell is the main problem with this Government - I cannot believe I am saying this but I 100% agree with Mary Lou that this Government is out of touch - their number one priority is not aligned with the public's at large. They've spent the past few days blabbering on about the climate action plan, but back in the real world it's housing (as I know only too well speaking from personal experience). That's what I want prioritised above all else.

I genuinely don't know what to do the next time I vote, I'm not sure I want SF in power because of their past and I find their populism hard to take at times, but I know that I don't want FG in again for a while, well not until they've rediscovered some bit of backbone and remember to stand up for those that make up their traditional voter base.

Triangle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125443#Comment_118125443

Not pointed at you or your party in particular brady.

Large organisations have a tendancy to start a protectionist strategy whereby the tribal instinct kicks in. This is some what true of smaller organisations but not the same as larger ones. Its a quick google to find many studies done on the subject.

My point being is that the larger the organisation, the less it will work for the actual people and more so for the organisation itself. Hence FF/FG and soon (if not already due to the large IRA contingent) to be SF.

But this is a FG thread and as above i believe they've become this monstrosity.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134300#Comment_118134300

I don't want FG in again for a while, well not until they've rediscovered some bit of backbone and remember to stand up for those that make up their traditional voter base.

But is a period out of office necessarily going to drive FG in that direction? If they are replaced by an SF-led left-wing government, are they not just as likely to conclude that the way forward is to move further left?

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134445#Comment_118134445

Dunno. What is clear is that another period in office will just make them take the p!ss even more.

Murph85

"I would have always voted for them because they were the party that believed in law and order, keeping a lid on spending, looking after people 'get up early in the morning."

They are obsessed with looking after those that contribute nothing. These people dont even vote and the handful that do, would never vote FG, even though FG throw the free houses , medical cards and everything else at them. Then you have you, I and many people I know. Who will no longer vote for them, because they are obsessed with optics and correctness. Look you will never get everyone to agree on everything, if they had bothered looking after their voters, they wouldnt be hemorrhaging support. Its political cowardice in the extreme and at least it is reaping, what they have sewn!

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124302#Comment_118124302

Wonderful riposte. Meaningless and trite.

As I said, if you are socially liberal and want to vote for one of the three largest parties, FG is your only choice. Yes, beyond that, you also have the Greens, SDs, Labour etc., but don't touch FF or SF as they have deep wells of conservatism in their party.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135234#Comment_118135234

Is there even the remotest chance of either FF or SF in government actually reversing amy liberal reforms? Is there any history of any Irish government even contemplating this? So what does it matter what a handful of backwoods backbenchers might be fantasising about?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135234#Comment_118135234

Look, you are trying to rewrite history. It was Garret the 'social reformer' that unequivocally said that the government (supposedly reforming) had an 'unalterable' objection to women's rights.

Lip service, in other words and quite willing to climb on bandwagons when the wind changed...also demonstrable, even recently.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135490#Comment_118135490

Link to Garret's so-called statement please, as I can't find it anywhere.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135458#Comment_118135458

Yes, there is. The legislation on abortion could be revisited. So could the legislation on divorce.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135639#Comment_118135639

Took me literally 2 seconds to find it:

"the government is unalterably opposed to the legalisation of abortion and is committed to taking whatever steps are necessary to ensure that an appropriate constitutional amendment is brought forward without delay".

Garret's 'constitutional crusade' is still puzzling - Independent.ie

Had you lived through the era you'd remember the reaction to it from... eh...real social liberals.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135667#Comment_118135667

So could any legislation. In theory. For you to have a point on this you need to come up with some plausible reason to believe it might actually happen.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135688#Comment_118135688

That isn't a statement, that is an extract from a letter in 1981. Remember that Fine Gael allowed a free vote in the Dail on the 1983 amendment. So now, we are holding Fine Gael to a position set out in a letter forty years ago. I suppose it is progress from when we were calling them fascists based on what Oliver J. Flanagan said in the Dail before he joined them.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135744#Comment_118135744

I literally give up.

Impossible to have a discussion.