New handicap system

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118401131#Comment_118401131

We did have a 27 points score for 9 holes in our place just before Christmas. About a 20 index or so shot +1 gross for the 9. Needless to say, he comfortably won the prize that day!!! 3 points per hole is fairly crazy stuff

willabur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118401131#Comment_118401131

How many scores does the 25 pointer have on his record?

Rikand

Jaysis, I had 27 points for 12 holes today and I played well for it :D

blue note

I had 25 points on the front 9 one day. Since my handicap was revised for whs that would now be 27. If it had been a comp I'd have had to pull up or I'd be featured on here and on WhatsApp groups around the country.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118404230#Comment_118404230

Rightly so 😂😂😂

To be fair, I think if you are shooting that kind of score you are likely playing off the wrong handicap

Sultan_of_Ping

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118374870#Comment_118374870

Interesting, I thought it was a pretty good article. An opinion piece, to be sure, but - in my view - it was broadly consistent with some of the discussions I've been party to. I'm not sure if his opinions are based on his experiences or his prejudices, but I found it broadly chimes.

I know a few lower handicap lads, not many but a few, who are grumbling on about scores in the club I'm in and are talking about not entering some of the club majors on the grounds of cost. Whether they will follow through or just keep grumbling I suppose remains to be seen .

I'm not sure if GP scores are being used to gain "comfort" strokes but was it not always the case that people sought to build their handicaps? WHS just offers a different way of doing it. I think the dishonest player will still be dishonest in their effort and it may just be that WHS brings such behaviour into starker relief because it allows handicaps to be built quicker than before.

Personally, I think it's too early to pronounce on it. Last I saw barely 60% of players in Ireland had a "full," 8-from-20 handicap. It needs at least another full season before any changes should be made.

1 of 7

I thought it was a bit sensational of an article. There was a far more accurate article in the Irish times in November and Golf Ireland gave some replies to questions in November. One of which was 90% of submitted scores for the year were from competitions. It makes sense as the majority of golf is played at the weekend, When competitions are active. Golf Ireland also gave a reply stating the attester’s handicap could be suspended along with the member who submitted the score if there was evidence of deliberate handicap building. I think the whs has not came in a full year yet, Once we get to 15/18 months and the majority of members have 20 rounds counting, the benefits of the system will be more apparent.

CalamariFritti

Definitely an issue with the new system.

I can see how a handicap that goes up and down quicker according to form may be a good thing. But the fluctuations are too great I think.

We have people who went through bad form in the summer/autumn and they gained 3, 4, 5 shots. Low enough guys not even massaging their handicap or anything. I went through it myself last year. 3 shots up then 2 shots back down.

But some guys went those 3,4,5 shots up and then qualifying golf ended and they now shoot 40 plus almost every time. Some had 46 or 47 points repeatedly. With no consequences to their handicap.

1 of 7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417223#Comment_118417223

In fairness those members probably went out those shots as their golf reflected some bad form. There should be qualifying golf nearly all year round, with the mild weather this year in Ireland,This is a failure of golf Ireland not rating enough courses. If there was qualifying golf their handicap would reduce to reflect the improvement in scores.Also the handicap review at the end of the year should pick up if their handicap does not reflect their demonstrated ability. It is more a golf Ireland or handicap committee issue than the WHS.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417877#Comment_118417877

I disagree with this. And for the record I dont think these handicap increases are deliberate. I thought I said so in my OP.

But people never play to their standard all the time. There are always mini slumps and recoveries and slumps again.

I think the new system is too immediate and the increases are too big. If someone is off say 10 and plays shite for a couple of months they could go to 13 or 14 or 15 even. But realistically they're still a 10 handicap and will be playing to it again soon enough, too. I mean I dont even get the idea behind it. Why would someone who goes through s slump need be kept competitive?

1 of 7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417932#Comment_118417932

The idea of a handicap is that everyone has an equal chance of winning when they tee it up. If your 10 handicap is playing to a 17 handicapper (as would be the minimum required to get five shots back), it is hard to disagree he doesn’t deserve to play off 15,to give him an equal chance to everyone else. If they hit form, they will be back to a 10 handicap very quickly. It is great to get to get good discussion on it. I do feel Golf Ireland could do more to smooth the transition.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418026#Comment_118418026

Ye I dont agree with this. People play better some of the times and worse some of the times. They dont need to be kept competitive at all times. I know when I'm playing shite and when I do I wouldnt expect or even want to have a chance of winning even if it goes on for a while.

1 of 7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418060#Comment_118418060

In fairness, if you are not playing well, You won’t play to within one or two shots of your handicap index and won’t win. But the Whs is more reflective of your current form as opposed to Congu, which was reflective of your potential form. It is a fairer system than Congu, in my opinion but it requires everyone reading up on rule 7 of handicapping in the whs and handicap committees implementing it. Also Golf Ireland needs to make sure qualifying golf is played as often as possible, like Scottish Golf has.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418098#Comment_118418098

What did Scottish Golf do? I thought once you touch the ball in the rough qualifying is off?

1 of 7

Scottish Golf allow rule 3.2 of handicapping to allow 12,14 or 15 hole competitions count for handicapping along with the nine and 18 hole courses. They have also carried out temporary course ratings to allow mats for use on the tee boxes. Model local rule E-2 and E-3 allows for lift,clean and replace to the ball in the rough this is applicable in Ireland.

billy3sheets

Handicap Committees can adjust WHS for non-qualifying rounds also. If a golfer's demonstrated ability is showing that they are playing better than their WHS. The problem is that the methodology (number of good scores, period they were achieved over and amount cut) applied is at the discretion of the individual committee and is not likely to be applied equally across clubs.

1 of 7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418496#Comment_118418496

I agree with the above, This is where golf Ireland could do more to allow for as close as possible to a 12 month qualifying season and take a lot of the work from the handicap committees. The R and A advice to the developers of the club Systems was to leave out the winter handicapping function as there was enough concessions in the WHS to allow for 12 month qualifying competitions. There should be very little non qualifying golf anymore meaning every round is counting towards your handicap.

bakerbhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118401131#Comment_118401131

26 to 30 points for 11 hole seniors tees. Long h/cap same.

Seve OB

I agree with above posts by Calamari. The system is great in principle but no golfer needs to be competitive all the time. Sure wasn’t the premise of the old system that you would only shoot your handicap once in 8 or something like that?

I was almost a single figure golfer just before WHS came in. I have had (not a lot) but still a fair few rounds of 6,7 over par and would usually knock a couple better than +10 out each year.

I had a terrible golf year, just played bad, head was fried, busy with other stuff etc. I still have a game in me though. I have 32 counting rounds this year, some casual ones in there (boards outings mainly which are anything but casual as most here can attest to) which actually are helping me keep my handicap lower than it otherwise would be. But my handicap has gone out to 14.3 which can give me up to 17 shots depending or where I’m playing. I don’t need to hear all the ribbing I get from my buddies and club members cause I already know it’s a joke and I should be shot.

Actually a true story, on a recent golf trip we met an aul lad over a pint and chats with him and my buddy soon led to handicaps. The rebel county pensioner was off 5, my fellow boardsie declared his handicap of 8 and when the Corkonian turned to ask me I was very quickly muted! “Well he his his driver better than me, he hits his irons better than me, he has a better short game than me, he putts better than me and he has better course management than me……… so of course he plays of 14 🥸”

A big part of my problem is that I’m streaky and I don’t practice. I got a lesson a few weeks ago which gave me a bit of confidence back with my setup and I know ball striking will improve. Probably going to get another lesson in week or 2.

I don’t know how or when, but I reckon I could well start getting a game together over the next few months. Then I’ll put a decent score in and I’ll be the talk of the what’s app groups and twitter sharing “would ya check this score out craic”.

I don’t want the shots, I don’t need the shots, I’m just having a bad run of form. This is not accounted for at all in WHS and it needs to be addressed.

billy3sheets

But @Seve OB WHS is an average of your 8 best of last 20 scores not an average of your last 20. So your bad run will have to continue for quite a while to flush out 8 good counting scores and increase your WHS. It reflects your current form whether you like it or not.

Virtually every golfer thinks they're in a slump and are capable of shooting much lower. WHS factually shows that's not the case.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418257#Comment_118418257

In our case lack of rating or mats are not the issue. The course is playable (ish) most of the winter and our system allows for qualifying scores with less than 18 holes.

I dont think the issue in the rough is primarily the dirty ball. Rough in the winter is sparse and thin and the ground is very soft. Playing as it lies or equivalent leads to people ploughing up the place. Placing in the rough is as much about playability as it is about course protection.

It really comes down to the immediacy of the new system and the size of the increases in my opinion. The winter situation where a number of players will sit on a too high handicap for months only highlights this. As well as it does distort the winter comps/leagues.

Rikand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418842#Comment_118418842

Seve, if you were a single handicap golfer when WHS came in and now you're off 14.3 - that's not just a bad run of form. That's a shocking run of form over 35 rounds of golf. You've basically increased your handicap by the maximum number of strokes allowable in the WHS. And it's not that WHS doesnt account for this. It does. It has a soft cap that you go through after gaining 3.0 strokes and a hard cap of 5.0 strokes. Once you hit the soft cap, your increases in handicap are hit by 50%, so it becomes twice as hard to increase your handicap and you'd want to be playing really really bad to get up to the 5.

However, there is a recourse for you. You can approach your handicap secretary and inform them that you don't believe the current handicap you have been given is a proper reflection of your golfing ability. Ask them to cut you back to a handicap that you deem appropriate and for the next year, all your rounds will have a deduction applied to them. I imagine your handicap secretary will have no problem doing this for you. It'll save him a lot of grief if you go out and shoot 61 in the Captains prize next year playing off 20 :)

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419804#Comment_118419804

But up until just before Christmas, courses were in relatively good condition and playable under model local rules E-2 and E-3. I played Powerscourt East a couple of times and there was no reason it shouldn't have been qualifying. My own course stayed qualifying up to Christmas and it's only the heavy rain we've had since then that's made it impossible.

Now, I know courses were running comps over 12 and 13 holes (due to the short days), but I think they could just have easily played nine hole comps qualifying instead. Clubs are making a choice to go non-qualifying when they could as easily choose otherwise.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418842#Comment_118418842

I'm sorry but having 32 counting rounds that has you off 14.3 - and as you said, a whole year of bad golf - means that it is more than a slump and that your handicap should be higher than previous years when you were not in a "slump".

Ivefoundgod

The system is reflective of ability IMO unless you are actively manipulating. We all know players who have the ability to be serious golfers but have no consistency and as a result are playing off handicaps that don't seem to reflect their skill level on the surface. I played a few rounds this year with guys and early on would think to myself 'this guy has no business being off this high a handicap' and yet as the round goes on and you add up the scores you see why they are (I'm sure others have played rounds with me and thought the same). I know personally it would frustrate me to see my handicap go up by 3+ shots over the course of the year but your scores are your scores. I think I might have the ability to be a 5 handicap, that doesn't mean I am one though and my scores reflect where my game is in terms of ability and consistency. Its pointless to say to myself 'I am capable of breaking 80' therefore I should be off 'X'. I need to go out and actually break 80 with regularity to get to that handicap, it would be an ego thing to say otherwise IMO. There are plenty of players out there who are capable of putting in rounds that would be comparable to low single digit golfers but one good round doesn't make you a single digit golfer yet I've come across people who seem to think that because they did it once, that is their level. Its the same thing you get with distance, so many golfers take their longest ever drive as their 'average' length and is common with a lot of golfers.

Not saying any of the above is true of you Seve_OB by the way, my comments are based on members in my own club and general experiences.

Seve OB

No I agree that bad form should show an increase in handicap.

I'm more saying that it should not be allowed to go up so much, for me or anyone else.

We were at a 1 shot capped increase just over a year ago, now you can go out by 5 shots, which in fact can be a lot more depending on the course you are playing.

It just needs to be reigned back in and a lower increase allowed

CalamariFritti

I am a little confused because people are making a case now for WHS to be more reflective of form and therefore superior to CONGU.

I didnt think that was the reason why WHS was introduced. I could be wrong but I got the impression the overwhelming if not sole reason for its introduction was the 'unified' aspect to which there are two angles in my opinion.

• International comparability - Which I think has limited benefits to the amateur golfer except maybe for the elite amateur
• National interclub comparability - Which in theory is a great idea but ask anyone and they will tell you handicaps in interclub teams are largely farcical anyway

Which leads to me thinking that the 'unified' angle has limited use to anyone but the elite amateur level.

After that I'm looking at the actual handicap system itself and when I compare it to CONGU I must conclude 'if it an't broken don't fix it'.

The new system is a) more complicated and b) allows for faster and bigger swings. a) is hardly an advantage whatever way you look at it and b) is going into the wrong direction altogether with regards to what needed fixing in CONGU golf (handicap massaging).

I really find it hard to see the improvement that WHS is supposed to bring along.

monkeybutter

Surely both are true

I can play off different tees in the same club with a different handicap

I can put in casual rounds not easy to do previously if supported at all at my own club or any irish club

I can get a truer handicap on harder courses if playing casual or open or inter club assuming the course rating was done correctly

its easier for me to why my handicap is what is with the website and app

Handicap massaging wasn't caused or fixed by this, only manual intervention can do this

If you are playing to 20 for half a year or a whole year, it makes more sense to allow the swing up as it does down, otherwise its just a vanity thing

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118420444#Comment_118420444

I agree wholeheartedly with this post! We've all heard people say you don't have pictures on the scorecards, all that matters is the number that goes onto the card. But for handicap purposes, we seem to want the pictures. You hear a fella can drive it 250 yards, or get a lot of spin on his wedges and you want that factored into his handicap because once he starts doing it consistently he'll be far lower. There is absolutely no guarantee he'll start doing it consistently this year, next year or ever! Although that's not the case with Seve - he has had the lower rounds. Kind of similar to myself to be honest, I've gone out from 13 to 18 (and counting) over the course of less than 30 counting rounds.

To me how slowly handicaps could increase was probably my biggest gripe with the CONGU system. Not from a personal point of view, if I was playing badly I didn't mind scoring badly. It's only recently that that has gone on for a long time, but if my handicap was now 15 instead of 18, I'd probably prefer it being honest. WHS handicap shows your actual current ability and I don't like that it is showing mine at over 18 now. But it's accurate. My gripe with them increasing slowly though was coupled with people being given handicaps far lower than their ability. I can think of a few specific examples. The clearest being a junior I grew up with. He played a lot, went to the weekly lessons with me and never got down from 36. And bear in mind they'd cut a junior if he got near 36 points. Then he turned 18 and was given an official handicap of 20. They had years of cards from him in junior comps and ignored them and gave him a ridiculous handicap. Over a few years he played in enough competitions to get over 2 shots back. He certainly never got to 20 points and I'm not sure how many times he broke 10. And this was fine to people. If he still played, he'd surely have a handicap in the 40s and this would be appropriate.

It wasn't a limitation of CONGU that the handicaps assigned were often too low, but the fact that it was so hard to increase from them was a problem with the system. Now, you don't need to get on to the handicap secretary to ask for a review. And realistically, if your handicap was far too low, they'd only ever meet you in the middle of where it should be. If it should have been 34, they'd give you 27. Now, your handicap will actually reflect your ability.

Just as an aside - do you actually come down in handicap quicker with this system? I think I've only shot over 40 points twice in competition and I think they were 41 and 42 point rounds. They were a long time ago so my memory is hazy. But I was given an ESR for each of those of 2 shots. So I came down by the 6*.3 / 6*.2 for each of them, plus 2 shots for each of them. Very roughly I came down about 7 shots from those two rounds. Whereas with WHS, if you beat your handicap by 6 shots, you'll (very roughly) come down by about an eighth of that each time, so from the two rounds about 1.5 shots. The calculations are extremely crude, but I'm not convinced we come down faster under WHS.

1 of 7

Just in relation to the Whs being more complicated, I would disagree as the manual for the rules of handicapping for Whs is half the size of the Congu one. Congu was quite complicated but we all grew up with it. Not many members I knew,could tell me what was needed to calculate a standard scratch for a competition. They just accepted what was with the results.Also it could be argued that Congu was too slow to react to poor form. If a member went through his bad form for a year they were bringing in low 20 points and unable to get any increase in handicap past the one shot.Also resulting in incorrect stand scratch as they were not able to play to their handicap. It goes back to the definition of a handicap in sports “To impose a disadvantage on a superior competitor in order to make the chances more equal “. I agree with SeveOb and calamarifritti, If you are left on a high handicap for a non qualifying period, It is also unfair and wrong. There are plenty of concessions in the whs to allow qualifying golf for nearly all the year. The clubs and Golf Ireland have to adopt them into play. But this is an issue for both and not the WHS System.