New handicap system

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118303001#Comment_118303001

But it doesn't work like that. As has been pointed out here before, a decent round could see your handicap go up if it pushes an even better round off your last twenty. Bad rounds in themselves don't change your handicap, they will just not count towards it. But what happens is that each round you play can push better rounds played previously down the list and eventually push them off your record completely.

If lads are playing lots of general play rounds to achieve that, handicap secretaries have two options: Make an adjustment to bring the handicap back into line, or delete the general play rounds that they believe are 'padding' the record.

Golfgraffix

If h/cap secs are doing their job, it's very easy to see if players are gaming the system with general play rounds

I agree but I’ve seen first hand at the stress it can cause, when a handicap sec has to address it with the player, human nature is to go in the defensive, even when only brought up as a discussion.

Im all for WHS but having seen the numbers of comp vs gp in many clubs, I honestly think it needs to be tightened up.

What the fix is, I’m not sure 🤷

The new rules for digital gp scores outside the Golf Ireland should help a little

bakerbhoy

Discussion has started around my club of internal handicap for comps. Lack of back up from governing bodies to h/cap sec committees is causing loss of confidence in the whole system.

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307942#Comment_118307942

I always thought handicap committees had a thankless task, seems with the new system it got even more so.

Having to take a member to task for poor casual rounds which have the potential to increase handicaps is something I believe no committee will do.

Previously one could stand over general play cuts relating to competition scores, how do you do justify that with casual play?

Seems to me the best thing is allowing the system to look after that rather than an individual

At least then the h/c secretary can say don't blame me blame the system😀

We all know of bandits winning foreign holidays major comps etc in the past, my attitude always was if thats their way let them off,their reputation obviously means nothing to them, we all know them and their form.

I wouldnt want to play with them..would you?

Besides I genuinely do not believe they are as big a problem as they seem to be anecdotally

bakerbhoy

The individual who took away Capt's prize this year, did so for the 3rd time his playing partner has 2 and is already installed as favourite for 2022(hcap 10 shots higher than when he last won 5 years or so ago) and a former partner has 1.

All notorious , but this last one made news beyond these shores. He is using the services of the legal profession in fighting the attempts by H/Cap sec to administer his H/Cap.He has ''done nothing wrong and is within the rules''. So without the governing body supporting the ''lack of honest effort '' part of our handicap regime it's doomed. If you can't beat them join them will take hold and its already evident in some strong golfers letting their indices drift.

blue note

I'm pretty sure I know the club and who you're talking about. One of the trio is no longer in the club if I'm correct? And that particular guy I believe another local club made a complaint to his one about him - that he was playing their open every week and sandbagging to make sure to get .1 back if he wasn't in with a chance of winning. It must have been shameless if they were confident enough to do that.

I don't know what can be done about them though. After one of them won one year he was given an exceptional scoring reduction. He was already a hugely unpopular winner and he still appealed (successfully) the reduction. But between the 3 of them they'd won something like 4 of the last 6 or 7 captains prizes. The odds of a particular threeball doing that are miniscule.

But as you say between the trio they have 6 already, so one under the new system, 5 under the old. As they saying goes, "cheaters gonna cheat". If people are intent on doing it, it's very difficult to stop them.

Salvadoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118312432#Comment_118312432

He's not the only one. Winner of a Major this summer in a Killarney club also sent a solicitors letter to the handicap committee.

golfguy1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314084#Comment_118314084

that is not true.

mjsc1970

I cannot see how winning any "major" in any club could be seen as an achievement anyone would seriously care about. I just don't get it. Like seriously, who really cares. I couldn't tell ya who won our captains or presidents prize this year.

Now the GOTY I take note of as an achievement.

Salvadoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118315781#Comment_118315781

How sure are you?

golfguy1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118318998#Comment_118318998

pretty certain the handicap committee did not get a letter from any solicitor since neither major winner has been affected by handicap committee as far as I can see

Salvadoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118319543#Comment_118319543

Maybe the reason they haven't been affected is because of the letter.........

golfguy1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118319820#Comment_118319820

again not true. have a look at both of their NEW handicaps.

Salvadoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320714#Comment_118320714

there has been no adjustment applied

golfguy1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321016#Comment_118321016

keep an eye on it. it will update maybe overnight

monkeybutter

did it update or wah?

golfguy1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118325546#Comment_118325546

it did.

3 of our biggest handicap builders were cut 6 shots 4 shots and 2 shots

2 of the above were also cut during yr after major wins

blue note

Wow. 6 shots in one go is some cut. It makes 4 seem normal, but when you think about it that's a huge cut as well. 2 is more normal in fairness.

Without knowing a lot more it's hard to comment on it to be honest. It could be a handicap secretary / committee that just can't accept a new system and are in a hump about a fella getting a handicap he can play to and then winning with it. Or, it could be something more deliberate by the player.

Timestamped

That is some cut but if reasoning is there then it should stand.

Handicap committees and in particular secretaries have a hard job, providing justification for cutting to a player that's been cut and listening to all the bs for not cutting people.

Just in relation to the AHR, if a player has say 5 flags for low scores should he receive an adjustment sufficient to remove all the flags??

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326684#Comment_118326684

I guess it works both ways. 6 is not a crazy jump, if you look at it relative to being able to go up by 5 in a year.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326814#Comment_118326814

Yep agree a 6 shot cut might not really be a lot when you look at what scores has the guy got in his 3 year bucket.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326812#Comment_118326812

In relation to the question on flagged scores, no is the short answer. Players can be flagged in both directions at the same time, so it can be just an indication of outliers in an otherwise normal handicap record. In a lot of cases (possibly even most), no adjustment is necessary. For example, they could be flagged for a few high scores, but their handicap progression is downwards. Or the flagged scores are outside the most recent twenty and form no part of their calculated index.

Luckycharm

Our Bandit got cut 5 shots!!

bakerbhoy

Don't know how true this but i was told at the weekend. In some clubs in the USA that if a player beats his/her handicap by 6 or more they are DQ'd from comp.

bakerbhoy

Obviously playing from incorrect handicap. Gets past law suits around calling cheat.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357835#Comment_118357835

Not really that obvious. It depends on what the handicap is. If a chap off 12 beats his handicap by 6, that's 50% and you might well say he's off the wrong handicap. But if the chap's off 30, it's now 20% and we're in completely different territory.

Luckycharm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357826#Comment_118357826

Anybody can have a one off good day but someone is continuously doing it, that is a different story.

Sultan_of_Ping

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357826#Comment_118357826

Seems to be true enough. Ivor Morris mentions it here ------> First year of WHS has not gone well (a good article if you haven't read it).

Anything in the yellow is a DQ. Not disagreeing with the idea, but I'm not sure about the automatic bit being such a good idea.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370203#Comment_118370203

That table obviously at least covers the issue I raised about handicaps and rounds under par. At least it recognises that there is a sliding scale and higher handicaps will need relatively more strokes to cross the threshold. Not sure if it's ll warranted or not, but at least the relativitiy has been incorporated.

That article in Irish Golfer is terrible. The author when presenting data on geeral play rounds decides to stick a conpletely unfounded opinion in without any backup whatsoever. "the vast majority of them (I am convinced) with the intention of giving themselves ‘comfort strokes". Quite a statement there. Which having made up, he then proceeds to get outraged about for a paragraph.

And then he doubles down with the made up statistics, deciding that the only cuts from GP rounds come from low handicappers. And in the same paragraph decides that there are people putting in multiples of nine hole rounds on the same day because... reasons. We're only just four paragraphs in and there's been nothing but wild conjecture and outrage based on his own prejudices.

This is followed by three paragraphs of anecdote and a forecast of terrible things for golf in the future due to people not entering competitions through to just giving up altogether. Hysterical data-free nonsense.

It gets worse as he goes on to talk about CSS (gone) doesn't know that the handicap limit of 54 was introduced under CONGU and betrays his complete ignorance of the reporting facilities available from the Golf Ireland portal.

TL;DR This is a badly researched rant which mkes no effort at balance whatsoever. No recognition of the problems that WHS set out to overcome or the systems in place that make up the WHS or even acknowledge that the problems he blames on the WHS already existed before it. Pure drivel that I found hard to read for the amount of facepalms it caused me.

Lip Out

There was a 9 hole comp at my club on New Year's Eve which was won by a score of 25 points (which included a scratch and he was 9 over for the other 8 holes). Meanwhile, the lowest handicap golfer in the club shot 3 under and finished 15th.

Our club has brought in categories to address the flaws of WHS but unfortunately only applies if 60 or more are playing in the competition. It is pointless for lower handicap players to enter into competitions where there are no categories/gross prize.