New handicap system

valc

Does anyone know if the anual handicap review can cut someone which would then "place" them in Category 1 (i.e. h/cap 4.5 or less)?

My memory of the system pre WHS, was a member could not be cut in to Category 1 without prior agreement of GUI / ILGU.

Rikand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215376#Comment_118215376

This year with the review, the handicap committee make their recommendations and then they submit them to the GUI for approval. So I guess a club could decide to cut someone into Category 1 and then the GUI will decide if the club are right to do it or not

DuckSlice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215376#Comment_118215376

From reading the documentation they only have to consider if they are adjusting them into the "Elite" category which is below 2.0. So I think they have changed the ranges for the categories.

valc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216234#Comment_118216234

tnx duckslice, i'm obv not so elite anymore!

spacecoyote

Saw this on Twitter, example of a course in the US that has rated all tees for Male and Female golfers

Thought it was a good illustration of the points that were being made by @prawnsambo around the case for just having the same some slope and rating for all golfers for all tees

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118228265#Comment_118228265

That's really interesting. Looking at the course ratings for women off the longer tees, I suspect that the pars would be different as well.

Edit: That got me looking on the rating database to see if I could answer my own question. A lot of clubs in the USA seem to do this, although often not for all tees. Here's an example where the same tees have different pars for men and women. The middle and forward tees specifically.

Edit again: Had a look a bit closer to home and found one from England that has red tees rated for men and women and in total three sets rated for both. Different pars as well.

mjsc1970

Feel like I'm hopping a ball with this but here goes

https://irishgolfer.ie/latest-golf-news/2021/12/03/first-year-of-whs-has-not-gone-well-2/?mc_cid=c77630e5fb&mc_eid=6150307cb1

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118261957#Comment_118261957

All that is is a rant with no data to back anything he says up

srfc d16

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118262222#Comment_118262222

I posted a pretty long reply in the comments but for some reason it didnt publish. It is a nonsense article in my opinion with nothing to back up any of his assertions. Where did he get the idea that he is one of very few low handicap golfers that play with higher hcp golfers?

CorkBoyInDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118261957#Comment_118261957

He's probably right in bits of what he's saying but as OEP said, he has no data to back it up. It's all anecdotal.

He talks about how everyone he's ever played with uses their handicaps as a badge of honour, but then goes on to accuse 46% of people playing casual rounds as bandits. Doesn't stack up for me.

I do agree with him for things such as handicaps going as high as 54. It's ridiculous. If I was playing with someone who had 51 shots I'd need an abacus in my bag to try and work out their stableford points.

blue note

There are an awful lot of assumptions in that article. 10% of rounds submitted are from casual golf and he's convinced that the vast majority of them are cheating (or "comfort strokes" as he calls them). I'll certainly call BS on that. I'm submitting my casual rounds as are the people I generally play with. In my case my casual rounds are twice as likely to count as my competition ones. Unfortunately people are using the casual rounds to cheat, but I'd say that the opposite is true and that the vast majority submitted are by people who want to get their handicaps down.

He played with three lads, one off 18 and two off 28 and they were embarrassed by their high handicaps and would prefer instead for there to be a limit of 24 and they'd simply be at the max. Are we supposed to extrapolate that this is the consensus amongst higher handicaps? My handicap has gone up since WHS came in and it bothers me. But it bothers me because it reflects how I have been playing. The handicap is a badge of honour as he says, but only because it reflects your ability. An artificially low handicap is no badge of honour. And as regards people being happier having a max handicap of 24 that they can't compete off? I call BS on that too. Some guys might prefer it, but I've met plenty who are delighted that they can now play in competitions and compete.

He mentions a discernable decline in numbers playing in domestic competitions. I'm guessing that's based on his perception as opposed to actual figures? Anecdotally I've heard of people saying they're not going to play in competitions anymore, but I haven't seen any spare spots on the timesheets.

And his suggestion that you disqualify anyone who plays too well relative to their handicap is, in fairness to him, genuinely funny. I saw a guy off +2 shoot a -7 recently. According to his chart he'd be disqualified for it!

The article just reads like someone who wants things to be the way they always were. In the end he even suggests going back to a 1983 rule whereby all new male golfers get a handicap of 18. Back in 1983, men were probably free to go golfing every Sunday while the wife prepares the roast while minding the kids. Whereas now husbands don't get away with that. So everyone being able to practice enough to play to an 18 handicap back in 1983 was far more possible than it is now. A handicap system that doesn't take into consideration that guys won't be able to practice enough to play to that sort of handicap won't work.

An interesting contradiction that really sticks out for me is the number of people who question the point of playing in competitions now because they don't feel that they can win them. And what they want to happen is new members be given low handicaps, and all golfers have a maximum handicap. With these two things the result will be heaps of members who won't have a chance of competing in competitions. I suppose the difference is that it will be other members rather than themselves.

mjsc1970

Yeah, if anything, in my club there's more playing the comps now than ever. I don't know if WHS has anything to do with that either way. Winning scores are in the main ballpark what they've always been too.

I play golf with my pals in comps, and their handicaps make no difference to me. It's their company I look for, not their golfing ability. Ive been a low handicapper for years but in the posse theres a handicap there from all the categories. Always been the way.

I take his point regarding GI should be looking more into trends of clubs in the final stages, each year, for the inter club.

Ive no clue how many submit casual rounds in my club but I'd imagine it's folk trying to get their handicap down rather than up.

gman127

Yeah interclub is the only part of that I'd agree with at all. I'd see no reason why members of a team, who competed in say at least 2 rounds, were docked shots at the end of the year for it by, say, 3 shots for the winners, 2 for the runners up, and 1 for the beaten semi finalists. And I say that as a member of a team who made it to a final this year

joebloggs32

The last two paragraphs really hit the nail on the head for me. Same clubs year after year competing for honours in these competitions. GI laughably suspended a club last year during lockdown when it was caught out.

On the individuals gaming the system he is spot on. Every club has them and everyone knows who they are. I don't know how these lads can actually have the nerve to blatantly do it, year after year returning inflated scores, and suddenly shotying the lights out in the csptains prize, or hoovering up the classics.

If prizes were dialed down it would cut a lot of this crap out.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118266641#Comment_118266641

If there was an easy way to get those guys it would be done. Most clubs have players like that and have cut them only for it to be overturned on appeal.

Rikand

And his suggestion that you disqualify anyone who plays too well relative to their handicap is, in fairness to him, genuinely funny. I saw a guy off +2 shoot a -7 recently. According to his chart he'd be disqualified for it!

A + handicap golfer from Athlone shot 64 in Lahinch in the South championship over the summer. He would been disqualified for it on that table

cjfitz

Ok guys, our club had a 3 man champagne scramble on the weekend. 2 scores to count, 3 drives each. Placing on the fairway and drop in the rough. What do you think won it?

blue note

100

cjfitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283977#Comment_118283977

104. I thought this was absurd. I thought there’d be something in the low to mid 90’s. There was two 96’s after that.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284115#Comment_118284115

Not unheard of to be fair. I'd expect high 90s if the field was a decent size. If you set up your team right, you'd have a couple of high handicaps with a couple of big hitters and you'd be in with a good chance of five or six points a hole.

cjfitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284400#Comment_118284400

Fair enough. But I think 96 was huge given the conditions. So having 8 more than that is a lot. One of the guys had an index of 25.9, playing handicap of 30 had 5 pars and 8 single bogies and 1 double counted on the card. That’s 39 points for 14 holes. That really isn’t 30 hc golf.

gman127

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284531#Comment_118284531

Of course it isn't 30 handicap golf. But it's also a scramble. They are likely 50+ yards closer to each green than they are used to and loving life all of a sudden 😄

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285331#Comment_118285331

This exactly. They are reaching into their bag for a wedge where they'd be expecting to hit a hybrid normally. At best. And generally these lads are good with a wedge because it's probably the club they use most of all. So getting to use their most trusted club and getting it in close for a birdie chance a lot of the time.

Which is why I say the ideal team has these guys in it. They've a good short game and the big hitters get them into a position to use it. The three drives thing will pretty much always sort itself out on par 3s or where the big hitters inevitably go astray.

blue note

My father plays off a mid 20s handicap and has a very tidy short game. But he could hit two good shots before he's up with a good drive of mine. I'd actually love to play a champagne scramble with him to see how he'd go. I'd expect him to feature on the card far more than me because his short game is much better than mine.

And I play with two high handicappers regularly - 24 and 31 I think. Again, I'd love to try a scramble / champagne scramble with them. They've decent length, so if we'd three goes at the drive on each hole we'd surely have one in play 18 times and a fair few of them would be in good positions. And we'd have heaps of shots.

Of course, if you've 3 low handicappers you're probably not benefitting all that much from the drives because they tend to be in play anyway. But in a scramble, I'd say you've 18 holes that you're pushing for birdie on.

I must look out for a team comp. They sound fun!

cjfitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285540#Comment_118285540

That’s fair enough but almost level 6’s is daft. ya higher guys can be very comfortable with shorter irons and feel the difference of a good drive but even with good drives 8 of our par 4 on Sunday left 180+ yards in, not the easiest shots for 17, 26 and 30 handicappers.

I like the new system personally, it always gives me something to play for even if I’m out of the competition but we’ve had some farcical results at our club. Both majors were a joke and recently a guy off 12, who was off 7 fourteen months ago shot level par recently. The majority of people are just paying the entry fee to get a time slot on a Sunday. Maybe our club has been one of the exceptions

Blue Note, ya it was good to play a different format and it’s something that I’m sure your father would enjoy, my father would enjoy it himself.

golfguy1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285937#Comment_118285937

I played in that event aswell. the winning team had 1 long hitter who hit 12 of 18 tee shots. the 2 high lads were in positions off the tee they would never normally be. the reason for the high scores was that we played off full handicaps when we should have been off a precentage(75%) which would have levelled off the advantage to higher handicaps.

our majors were won by 2 of our renowned bandits. but the scores weren't outrageous as the 2 lads who came 2nd (losing by 1)are honest golfers.

the last lad who shot level par is now off 7. he just had a good day as I assume you and I have had. most of our comps have been won with "normal" scores.

since the club started the €5 for casual rounds the well known bandits have all stopped building their handicap

cjfitz

Fair enough they had a long hitter but almost level 6’s is ridiculous. 75% would have been better.

The winning scores may not have been outrageous but the handicaps were. The guy who won the presidents prize was telling people he was going to win it for months beforehand.

The guy that is now off 7 is also renowned and had more than a good day. I look forward to shooting 12 shots better than my handicap one of these days. His handicap building is something to behold.

The fiver might reduce it somewhat this time of the year but I don’t think it will curtail it enough in the summer. Of someone is that way inclined they will spend the fiver.

Golfhead65

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286545#Comment_118286545

The 5 euro administration charge for (casual golf handicap building) is a great idea and something i put to our committee to consider

golfguy1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286637#Comment_118286637

all casual rounds must be signed in book in proshop along with payment. all monies raised go directly to junior section. ive been informed that no 9 hole casual rounds returned since the fee was brought in. lots of 9 hole scores beforehand.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285937#Comment_118285937

8 of your par 4s leave 180 yards plus after a good drive? What do you regard as a good drive? That sounds like an exceptionally long course.