"Green" policies are destroying this country

Furze99

Politicians are lining up to have their ears burnt this winter by their electorate. It's all very well imposing carbon taxes on top of price hikes and then muttering about raising fuel allowances. That leaves the usual suspects to carry the burden - the ordinary workers supporting the state, paying their way and their taxes, not eligible for fuel or social welfare increases. There's going to be a lot of pretty pissed off voters.

As for the Greens, their biggest fans here must be SIMI. Ching, ching - churn the market and get everyone buying new vehicles. Green policies led directly to the switch towards diesel passenger cars and now EVs. The only hitch with the EV is that you'll likely have to buy a home generator running on petrol/ diesel in order to charge it in coming winters.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970355#Comment_117970355

Not really, it is only affluence which has allowed meat to become an everyday staple, its unnatural to the way we lived. There is a world of difference between the old fashioned extensive farming and the intensive meat and dairy of today. Every pound of meat we produce in intensive farms could produce 10 pounds of veg which would feed more people than the meat. I have lived as a vegetarian for 30years and I am probably healthier than most meat eaters I know. But I advocate people cut down their meat consumpton to more traditional levels, in the region of 10% of their overall diet. That would take us a long way along the path to sustainability in farming.

BobHopeless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969854#Comment_117969854

And less profit.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970381#Comment_117970381

Meat eating has been around for a couple of million years and cooked meat nearly one million so not sure why you imagine it to be unnatural. It was the calories, nutrients and ease of digestion that brought it into our diet.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970498#Comment_117970498

You completely ignored what I said there. Our parents and their parents ate much less meat than we do now and they were healthier for it.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969642#Comment_117969642

My point has been that our policy is to provide nationally 70% of our needs through the national grid by way of green energy. Far as I can see other than doing so using wind energy there really isn`t any other source being given much, if indeed ny, consideration. When the wind drops it will not be just a case of each household individually making up this 70% shortfall using solar panels. With shortfall there will be blackouts so that 70% shortfall will then become 100% shortfall for individual houses.

On your house in Athlone I`m not saying you are wrong, but the figures I provided as to the area of solar panels require to provide both 100% energy and 70% for the average Irish household of 4,200 Kw per annum are based on the figure for ! sq meter of solar panel producing 150 watts on a sunny summers day, were provided by Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, and the area required does appear to be at variance with your figure.

BobHopeless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970498#Comment_117970498

And it tastes freaking great.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967054#Comment_117967054

GP were rejected in the constituency I live in, you're dreaming if you think these parties are populour outside the well off urban areas.

Rural voters and people in less well off urban areas hate them

Beechwoodspark

If people are angry about green policies now ....

I’m sorry to break the news to you all

unfortunately the climate situation is absolutely dire and this is not going away

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970553#Comment_117970553

Dublin Central?

At the end of the day they are a small party in the Government. Anyone thinking they are making all these decision without approval from FF & FG are fooling themselves

All the main political parties including the opposition ones supported the Paris Agreement which meant these changes would have to be made yet we have people crying on here about the Greens and South County Dublin.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967480#Comment_117967480

Of course the population needs to be reduced, they are breeding like rabbits in Africa and India and that isn't going to stop anytime soon.

Many species of animals will disappear there over the next few decades when people cut down the forests and grasslands these animals live in.

You won't hear that little loudmouth Thunberg anything about that though when she is shouting the house down.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970526#Comment_117970526

No, I just challenged your claim of it being unnatural and life expectancy rates suggests this claim is untrue as well - it was 72 here in 1980 and had little changed in the previous twenty years. If you mean they had fewer lifestyle issues like obesity I'd agree but that's an outcome of our own far more sedentary and junk-filled lifestyles.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969658#Comment_117969658

And therein lies a lot of the problem with green energy. The mixed messaging. You are saying you are exporting energy to the grid and the last poster I replied to says his example would not provide for all the energy needs even during Summer. Both cannot be correct.

I gave you the area of solar panels required for the average Irish household for both 100% and 70% of their daily energy needs in Winters based on a sq. meter of solar panel output according to the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland. Are you saying my figures are wrong, SEAI is wrong, or that both are wrong because there does appear to be a rather large variance between the area of solar panelling required of your figure and mine ?

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970561#Comment_117970561

Sure but it's their single target approach that people have issues with. The solutions will ultimately be massively multi-faceted, something the Greens are not good at.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970575#Comment_117970575

This is the second time someone mentioned the Paris Agreement in a post of mine which I said nothing about at all and for the second time I'll say I never suggested that FF/FG didn't also sign up to it.

The reason the Greens won't ever be popular is they want to stop many of the things rural folk see as a way of life like turf cutting and beef production.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970594#Comment_117970594

What you find with solar depends on if you are home or not. People with solar have invested in battery plus eddi and if a electric car a zappi. All to use excess electricity before sending to grid because they are not getting paid for it. Then the excess goes to the grid.

What it does mean is the base load for the house is gone so during the day so that power can be used for offices etc. If you removed 100k houses off the grid during the day it would have an affect, if you move 500k houses off the grid during the daty etc

That is before you look at excess.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969664#Comment_117969664

So you have no problem with China or any other country burning whatever they can get their hands on to provide cheap energy thus giving them a competitive market edge up until they reach the same level of per Capita emissions as we do. Good to know.

Do you expect them to have a sudden road to Damascus moment at that point ?

If anyone needs to grow up and smell the coffee it`s someone who believes that.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970624#Comment_117970624

They are building more sustainable capacity than practically any country in the world, they are doing as much or more than most advanced countries. They are the primary manufacturer of all of the solar PV in the world as are they the largest manufacturer of Lithium technology batteries - all contributing towards lowering everyones carbon footprint. They aint the bad guys but I am really not sure about the like of yourself.

MAULBROOK

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970613#Comment_117970613

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970613#Comment_117970613

Look at you using logic and sense. Just wish we had a little bit more of it.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970217#Comment_117970217

you can't think of anything more natural than agriculture? what a strange thing.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970561#Comment_117970561

My problem with green policies is not that they are costly or difficult but that they are irrational and illogical.

They want ev transport and ultra efficient electric heat pump homes and they want to end fossil fuel power plants simultaneously.

So they want to make people totally dependant on the grid while simultaneously making the grid unreliable.

As pointed out above, there still seems to be no incentive for homeowners to even sell their solar energy back to the grid. My parents for example simply heat water with theirs because that's the economic model that makes most sense to them.

They have a solution to the energy grid problem and energy security and emissions for the past 30 years but they refuse to include nuclear power in their policies.

So they give us no solutions and in fact weaken transport and energy security and ignore real solutions due to political cost.

They are not a serious "green" party. Riding bikes and building windmills isn't a viable solution in the modern industrial world. And talking about it ironically just a distraction from actual climate action.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970602#Comment_117970602

This is the problem I see on boards, people seem to have half a story and think firing it out is the answer. In this day and age how many people see turf cutting as a way of life? the reality is that it's a tiny percentage and it was on the decline. I do admit we seem to have got it wrong with the policy now of importing turf, not sure why that is a good plan.

I don't see the Greens hitting beef production, what they have asked for is more organic farms and more vegetables/fruits etc. Then again the market is moving in that direction so Irish farmers should be ahead of it.

If the Greens didn't get into the last government we would still have to meet the Paris agreement terms, so who would you blame then when these changes are implemented? At least with the Greens in government you know they actually have an idea. That is why people reference the Paris agreement,.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970681#Comment_117970681

China represents more than 25% of all global carbon emissions, with 18% of global population. If you believe that our carbon footprint in Ireland is somehow taking advantage of China on an individual basis, then aren`t the Chinese doing similar to others. ?

58% of their energy consumption is provided by coal burning plants.They are now proposing to build additional new coal plants that would provide 73.5 gigawatts of power as opposed to the rest of the world`s 13.9 gigawatts. They are also under their Belt and Road Initiative building hundreds of coal fired plants around the world.

Do not fool yourself where China is concerned. They see an economic and political advantage from cheap energy in a post Covid world and are going for it while countries like ourselves ramp up our energy costs. The are not doing too badly out of the green energy agenda either while doing so, being the chief suppliers of solar panels and batteries.

Congrats by the way, you really just hit the nail on the head when it comes to how most people view zealots. It`s either their way unquestioningly or you are the bad guy. Not a great attitude for making friends, let alone influencing people.

Shoog

Nuclear is not a solution:

"Cheap dreams, expensive realities

In the dawn of the nuclear era, cost was expected to be one of the technology's advantages, not one of its drawbacks. The first chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, Lewis Strauss, predicted in a 1954 speech that nuclear power would someday make electricity “too cheap to meter.”

A half century later, we have learned that nuclear power is, instead, too expensive to finance.

The first generation of nuclear power plants proved so costly to build that half of them were abandoned during construction. Those that were completed saw huge cost overruns, which were passed on to utility customers in the form of rate increases. By 1985, Forbes had labeled U.S. nuclear power "the largest managerial disaster in business history.”

The industry has failed to prove that things will be different this time around: soaring, uncertain costs continue to plague nuclear power in the 21st century. Between 2002 and 2008, for example, cost estimates for new nuclear plant construction rose from between $2 billion and $4 billion per unit to $9 billion per unit, according to a 2009 UCS report, while experience with new construction in Europe has seen costs continue to soar."

............

If we want to reduce the climate impact of electric power generation in the United States, there are less costly and risky ways to do it than expanding nuclear power. A 2011 UCS analysis of new nuclear projects in Florida and Georgia shows that the power provided by the new plants would be (more expensive per kilowatt than several

alternatives)[https://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear_power/nuclear-power-and-our-energy-choices/nuclear-power-costs/nuclear-power-projects-risky.html], including energy efficiency measures, renewable energy sources such as Biomass and wind, and new natural gas plants."

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/nuclear-power-cost

it is to expensive and no where near as reliable as its advocates claim. We would need at least 3 and probably four nuclear power plants for reliable supply all year round - other wise half of the grid could drop off at the drop of a hat. Estimates for new build plants in the UK are running at over £15 billion per plant meaning Ireland would need to find £45 billion to build the dream of Irish Nuclear. There is also the not inconsiderable hurdle that Uranium is a finite resource and increasing demand is pushing prices up for the raw fuel.

Meanwhile the very achievable "Spirit of Ireland" project could make us net exporters of wind electricity and the pumped storage capitol of Europe with the ability to buy in excess cheap overproduction of sustainables and sell it back at peak times for profit. Even if we were to allow for the sort of cost overruns typically experienced by nuclear we could build multiple Spirit of Ireland projects for the cost of a viable nuclear fleet and have a far more reliable grid to boot. This is the sort of visionary project which actually makes sustainable energy a reliable future for our energy needs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Ireland

Nuclear for Ireland is a pipe dream and if you are advocating for Nuclear in Ireland you are referencing dishonest sources.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970761#Comment_117970761

But you're definitely in favour of nuclear as a replacement for fossil fules? After all, you have a planet to save and no time to waste.

If you're not it would suggest that you're motivated by the same irrational relgious zealotry of the Eamonns of the world.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970946#Comment_117970946

Nuclear fusion will eventually be the replacement for everything but it's still a very long way away.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970526#Comment_117970526

Never knew that.If grandma or pa or mammy and daddy ate less meat its because they didn't have the money to buy it every day.When I was young mammy gave me and siblings meat nearly every day as well as any of our friends sitting with us.We are all healthy now-not dead

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970946#Comment_117970946

You obviously didn't read a word I wrote. Nuclear cannot save the planet because its to slow and to expensive and doesn't actually save as much carbon as the equivalent wind/solar.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966693#Comment_117966693

It’s not, but in 20 years spiraling population, not enough Gardai, nowhere to build homes, house prices through the roof , many of the ones that do get built will be given to new arrivals...our population is over 5 million at present and projected to grow quickly to around 6 million according to the government.

services stretched and not enough people paying for them. So that those who DO pay for them end up being taxed more.

MBE220d

I see the likes of Brid Smith and Boy Barrett are very concerned about the rising gas prices, these are the clown that was front and centre to getting gas and oil exploration banned off our coasts, someone would want to remind them what happens when you depend on other for supply, no control on price or supply.

Having these populist clowns is not only stupid but dangerous to the people that they are supposed to represent.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970761#Comment_117970761

Should I cite information from wind turbines in 1954?

I like the idea of using reservoirs for energy storage but this seems like a pipe dream to me. You are claiming that this is a far more viable and financially prudent solution. However, where are the details on the reservoir sites, the construction cost and maintenance cost, the environmental cost of pumping saline into the hills, of relocating communities. Seems risky to me, untried and untested sites , what happens if we have leakage issues? Buying energy via interconnector introduces more dependence. So while you worry about our dependence on uranium imports, you don't seem to have an issue with direct power imports(which ironically the french will be selling us nuclear power). The loss of energy from long distance conduction in interconnects. The idea is novel and interesting but is it developed enough to consider it a proof of concept? Nuclear is tried and tested, it would be part of a hierarchy of power sources including wind but as a direct substitute for the fossil fuel element. Major western economies still rely heavily on nuclear power, the upfront cost is very high but they can produce for decades. I think I would have to see a balance of all estimates for the "Spirit of Ireland Project" including "initial analysis of sites, buying land, building dams, maintaining dams, loss through electrical conduction via large interconnect and of course evaporation, building enough wind infrastructure and buying sites and environmental impact, market risk of importing power from the continent and environmental impact of creating large salt lakes"

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971102#Comment_117971102

There is a website discussing the proposals, i advocate reading it. The bottom line with Renewables are that they become more reliable the bigger the interconnected network. The is the strategic plan been built across Europe as we speak and Wiki has a nice map of the built and proposed HVDC network linking all corners of Europe. The recent opening of a HVDC line from Norway to the UK shows what is possible and means that Norway who have invested almost all their North Sea Oil revenues into wind and hydro can export their significant excess and become earners of revenue. This is what is available to Ireland through projects such as Spirit of Ireland. In such a scenario we would be importing and exporting renewables from as far afield as North Africa and the Russian stepps. All technically possible with current technology and the knock on benefit is that an interdependent world is a more secure one since the costs of conflict are amplified.

I have little issue with importing French Nuclear overnight to sell back to the French in peak demand times, but installing a single watt of Nuclear on Irish soil is costly folly which fortunately will never happen. Nuclear is old dead technology which can no longer obtain finance because of its implicit costs and a total inability to insure against its risks - renewables have overtaken it and all the sensible investment money is acting on this inevitability.

MBE220d

https://www.gempool.ie/insights/data-centres-in-ireland-the-ever-growing-industry

I didn't realise that there were as many of these data centres around and a lot more to come by the looks of things, did anyone query the electric usage of these or would that be too much to expect of those granting planning permission.

Thelonious Monk

So when the Greens are gone from next election, and even though I vote Green I want them gone completely with no seats from next Dail, just to see who rural Ireland and the angry boardsies will blame for all the Green climate agenda stuff when they're gone.

I would imagine they'll still blame the Greens though, even when it wasn't the Greens I knew it was the Greens. FG/FF/Sinn Fein or whoever aren't just going to ignore the climate bill and whatever measures are agreed at COP26 happening pretty soon.

One way or another a lot needs to change.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971081#Comment_117971081

Brid Smith and Barrett are best left outside the Dail while the rest of them get to work. I thought at one stage Brid would be useful but she hung around with Barrett etc too long and was more interested in talking about Leo's jacket than real politics.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970972#Comment_117970972

You might have got meat but you didn't get the quantity you are currently served up today. In reality what I got as a child in terms of meat, if I looked at my kids plates now they are getting double to what I got.

We had a lot more vegetables on the plate to fill up.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970058#Comment_117970058

Any noticeable health benefits?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969968#Comment_117969968

So what if he needs to draw from the mains occasionally? I’ve no idea where the rest of your arguments come from.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970745#Comment_117970745

The problem I see is all the mixed messaging. Turf burning being just one example.

We fought a mini war with farrmers over cutting turf for the sake of the planet and now we are importing it. People were told diesel was the way to go, and that has been a disaster on numerous levels. At one stage wood pellets were the way to go, even though or home grown timber was so high in moisture content the pellets had to transported half way around the world or our home grow dried to the level where it took more energy to dry it as it produced, and now burning timber is a no no in any form anyway.

In all those cases we had the zealots telling us those were the ways to go. Some believed them and got burned, while many others looked on and saw them getting burned. Or in the case of diesel where practically everyone got sucked in. Nobody is denying climate change, but can you blame them for being very wary of large financial layouts on green energy systems based on the theories of the same zealots. Especially when the figures from them vary so much and going down the road we have been is now threatening Winter blackouts on top of rising carbon taxes to pay for it.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971270#Comment_117971270

no but certainly no drawbacks anyway, am still very active and can lift heavy etc.

Replacing beef, dairy and other meat production with vegetables means leaving vast tracts of land that does produce right now with land that can produce nothing much, or nothing at all.

Btw according to eirgrid this morning renewables, mostly wind, was 76% of demand and bet imports was -14%, so we were exporting 14% of demand. That’s pretty successful already with very little offshore developed.

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971302#Comment_117971302

What age did you say you were again.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971359#Comment_117971359

41

Arealred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970553#Comment_117970553

100 per cent agree. Its important that rural voters highlight the stupidity of the Greens policies at every opportunity.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970696#Comment_117970696

No I said an animal out grazing grass is about as natural as things get.

theguzman

With the cost of energy, heating oil and the appalling weather where I live I am going flying out of Ireland for the next 6 months, I can rent a nice one bedroom apartment for €350-€375 per month and my house will bring this in every week. I won't see temps below 28-30c for the entire time. Everything will be cheaper and I can work from home abroad. I am in the process of getting a mobile home installed on some farmland to act as my summer home when I'd come back from Mid-April onwards. Short days, incessant non-stop rain, extreme costs, a rural depressing existence is triggering the move. I met a man from Norway years ago in Thailand and he was doing the same thing and said the cost of heating his home for winter would nearly keep him in Thailand the same time. No wonder it is so popular with Nordic people due them getting no daylight for months.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971461#Comment_117971461

no, you said you can't think of anything more natural.

"I can't think of anything more natural to be honest than animals grazing in a field."

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971475#Comment_117971475

replying to the comment that said there's nothing natural about cattle in a field or sheep grazing on a hill.

Of course there's more natural things, what are you trying to contribute to this debate?

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971018#Comment_117971018

with a growing economy, you must have a growing population, and in order to keep the whole show on the road, you must also include immigration into that, or the whole thing would probably collapse. theres plenty of land to build houses, we just havent had the will to truly do it, it was noted during the previous crash that we were quickly running out of houses, particularly in the dublin region, but we effectively decided it would be best to do fcuk all about it, so here we are! you ll also find the immigrants had pretty much fcuk all to do with that, nice scapegoats though, along with the welfare classes. house prices virtually have fcuk all to do with those scape goats also, its primary due to the fcuked up political and economic ideologies we ve been chasing for decades, which are ultimately based in doing whatever it takes to continually drive up the price of property and land, again, go us!

will agree with in regards gardai resources and services stretched, again, another fcuked up part of those ideologies, i.e. defund by as many different approaches as possible such as austerity etc, but again, its always nice to have scapegoats about, such as those mentioned. again, i will agree in regards workers getting fcuked in all of this, thats another fcuked up part of those ideologies again, i.e. continually fcuk over those working, and make sure to point the blame towards the scapegoats, works a charm!

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962760#Comment_117962760

Green party themselves are a quasi-religious cult with a puritanical outlook, shouldn't be let anywhere