Hysterical article on Irish independent website

tdf7187

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-hits-record-gun-ownership-with-one-in-eight-households-now-armed-40888721.html

I am not personally a gun owner and I don't think I've ever even posted on this forum previously, but this is a stupid and wrong-headed article. The journalist apparently does not understand basic arithmetic. The fact that there are 234,000 firearm certificates in circulation, if that is the case, does not, of course mean that one in eight households is legally armed, as households which do have legally licensed guns tend to have several guns.

The fact that legally held weapons have been used in a number of murder/suicide cases in rural areas is of course awful, but that is because those involved in farming tend to be shotgun owners, for entirely legitimate and non-sinister reasons.

Your lobbying organisations would do well to rebut articles of this type.

Cass

It is a SWAG ("Scientific" Wild Ass Guess) which we have debunked on numerous occasions, but facts don't matter when a sensationalist headline/article garners more interest.

There were 187,432 firearm certificates up to January 2019 according to the DoJ. that number has been esitmated to have risen to approx 225,000. However they are only licenses and as you pointed out many people have multiple licenses. The last figure we had were 150,000 people with firearm certificates, plural. This gives an ownership rate of 3.06%.

The figure of 8% is a long used, and many times debunked, figure taken from gunpolicy.org. They used an algorithim based on stats from America and other countries to estimate the number of illegal firearms (they claim 150,000) along with outdated number of legally held firearms (255,000 from 2008) and used the total certificate numbers, rather than the persons licensed, to come up with the 8% figure.

This has gotten much publicity over the last three weeks due to the couple of high profile suicides, but nothing to address the tragic reasons people make the decisions. As another poster said in another recent thread they are addressing the tools used rather than the underlying cause. Of course if the shooting community comes out with data, facts and figures we immediately get accused of being heartless and callous. So damned if we do, damned if we dont'.

Cass

BTW doing a little research and math and you find the claims in the article are even more outlandish.

It says 1 in 8 households. According to the CSO there are 1,195,467 households, with a further 399,815 being single person households, and lastly 107,007 non family households. So approx 1,702,289 households. With a 1 in 8 ratio and allowing for 3 people per household that puts the number of firearms at 638,587.

So only 404,587 over the actual number of firearms licensed or almost 200% MORE than is actually licensed.

If you use the actual number based on the average 3 person per household figure with 1.7 million households you arrive at a figure of 1 in 12 HOUSEHOLDS at a minimum and possibly up as far as 1 in 16 depending on the number of people with licenses in the sme household.

The Gardai and DoJ know these figures. However they don't suit the agenda and its easier to get people to fall in behind any future restrictions if people believe the hype. I've met and spoken with people that were unaware firearms could be owned in Ireland so I don't have much, if any faith, in the impartiality of people on such emotive subjects.

Look at the currently proposed ban on semi auto rifles. They [DoJ] are doing this to stop "the proliferation of these type of firearms". There are some 200 licensed in the state since 2009. So that means they account for less than 0.1% (about 0.08%) of the total number of firearms in the state. So what proflieration are they talking about.

How about figures from 2015 when Gardaí said 1,700 firearms were stolen over a four year period between 2010 and 2014. In this list of "firearms" they included:

• Grenades (lost /stolen from defense forces)
• Fully automatic guns (prohibited from being licensed by citizens and only available to DF or An Gardaí)
• Toys (childrens crossbows)
• Gun safes (the metal boxes used to store firearms, they counted them as firearms)
• Replica (non functioning, replicas which are not legally or functiionally a firearm)
• Scopes (the optic placed on a firearm, and not subject to licensing or any sort of firearm related legislative control)

When challenged on these figures the DoJ admitted they "lumped" all gun stats into the one pot and paid no attention to the legal status of some items. The revised number off just over a thousand still included such blunders as:

Individual rounds of amunition being listed as firearms (266 if memory serves) and other items either not legally or functionally a firearm or only able to be owned/possessed by An Gardaí and/or DF.

Grizzly 45

Ho Hummm another female journalist copying&pasting to make her deadline... NEXT!

Grizzly 45

Funny how I could find those figures from the annual AGS report on the firearms act to the DOJ of 2019 dated Aug 2021 for the probably most up to date figures,and No professional newspaper hack in Ireland could do likewise within 10 mins to show what they are peddling is a fake news story?

Grizzly 45

bTW a handy page with all the links to the firearms acts and documents folks.Might want to bookmark or sticky?

http://justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/LegislationPublication

Excavo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058210507/hysterical-article-on-irish-independent-website

You're absolutely right. Really poorly researched & misleading article. Fake news even but that's what sells these days - hyperbole.

meathstevie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941882#Comment_117941882

Cass, for what my opinion is worth, it’s good to see a reasonable increase in the number of licensed firearms compared to immediately after the 2008 financial wallop. It’s a good indication that some lads and lassies have a bit of disposable income again to spend on some relatively expensive sports or hunting equipment.

Cass

I'm sure the recession had a hand in the drop in firearm numbers but from talking to my local FO over the years since 2009 he puts a lot of them down to lads not bothering to renew. He even said the number of older gents surendering guns rather than go through the 9 page application process, home visit, security requirements, etc. was surprising to him.

He also said that PULSE was "better updated" after 2009. I mentioned before, how with just with me, according to PULSE I had 13 firearms, hence licenses. Two I didn't own anymore, one was the wrong gun which I never owned, one was permanently exported years before hand and one I cancelled was still live. So by the time he adjusted PULSE I had 8 licenses.

Now factor that sort of adjustment across all 230,000 (pre-2009) licenses, add in surrenders, refused, banned (pistols), and we arrive at a figure closer to 180,000 after 2009. Firearm figures don't rise too quickly, as most lads will substitute one for another. So the rate of increase is usually slow and steady.

But yeah, good to see things increasing. Now if we could just get younger guys into. The average age for a firearm owner must be in the late 30s, or older.

garrettod

We could get more younger people into the sport, if we made it more accessible for them.

I'd suggest :

More publicity for the sport, to improve awareness.

Cheaper lessons and day rates, to give opportunities to try shooting,

Promotional Y1 & Y2 membership rates, for younger members to join target shooting clubs,

Bring an end to the nonsense that hunting clubs carry on with, by prohibiting people from outside their "clique" from joining etc.

Feisar

Cass discussed it before, we need small ranges in every county.

The problem with our sport at the moment is it's passed down the generations. Obviously I must have had an interest myself but then though I had the avenue for early access. I'm one of four and while my sister has a passing interest the other two lads have none. I'd love to see the stats on it, I'd say new blood, as in lads that don't come from a "shooting house" is low enough. By the time people have access to the sport they've gone other directions.

JP22

Yep, it’s a dying sport and I agree with last few comments.

On the age profile, I’m still a game club member even though I don’t game shoot anymore – vermin basically.

Average age is 53 years old in my club. I’ve talked to olenty of other game club sec’s across Leinster and 50-55 is the average age in most game clubs nowadays.

Grizzly 45

Strange that the UK with all its gun bans and restrictions is seeing a comeback in shooting numbers in a younger age group too.

Another group that is increasing is women in shooting disiplines.Another segment we should be looking at too.

Cass

I may be wrong but the UK has "freer" limitations on youngsters. In Ireland the only place someone can shoot like that is on range, but in the UK the legal age for a firearm is lower, lowe powered air rifles are license-free, zeroing/target shooting is allowed outside of ranges,, etc.

JP22

Another group that is increasing is women in shooting disiplines.Another segment we should be looking at too.

Indeed, I'm also a member of HH and plenty of ladies shoot there.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118025290#Comment_118025290

FIK the training license is on par with our legislation for live firearms. Dunno do they still have the minimum age for an airgun at 14?But it isn't so much just youngsters, it's people of all ages and walks of life that seem to be taking up or acquiring FACs going by the latest UK govt stats.

Cass

Then why not here?

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118030008#Comment_118030008

This is purely my opinion:

The UK has a history of target shooting, going back to training with longbows. It's sort of in the blood over there. Over here on the other hand for a long time a gun meant poacher. So gun equals bad. Yes I know there was an Irish contingent shooting on Dollymount Strand back in the day however that wasn't exactly grass roots.

Cass

Feisar -  Yes I know there was an Irish contingent shooting on Dollymount Strand back in the day however that wasn't exactly grass roots.

How exactly do you think they got to the point of shooting against other countries? They had to be formed, shooting, training, and in "full effect" for at least a while before that famous shoot. Shooting sports in Ireland is older than any other official sport so I wouldn't dismiss it so flippantly. Over 170 years of it.

Grizzly 45

35 years of Govt induced stasis.

Where the only people saw in that time owning guns were "freedom fighters" in NI or their pals holding up a post office or kidnapping dentists or wealthy industrialists someplace. Add to that a constant diet of Hollywood products with a message of "Guns are bad M'kay?" As well as rapid urbanisation of what was an agrarian society concentrated in one province would have a lot to do with why we see a lack of follow on.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031185#Comment_118031185

I would contend it was the Anglo Irish landed gentry types involved. I doubt Patrick from down the road got a look in. Please don't dismiss my comment as armchair republican waffle, it was what it was at the time.

Cass

Up to 2007 or 2008 Ireland was not allowed to compete as a country in F-Class, or more accurately we could compete but could not actually win even if we came first, fly our national flag or be named as Ireland. It was an English club from before the state was formed that held that right up to that point. Took a lot of men, many months/years and money to have that rectified. So believe me, I understand the origins of the sport and what it took to get here.

Hence my defence of any dismissal (only word I can think of, but I understand its you're not intending it as insulting) of it or its history as unimportant or not real.

Feisar

Cass, was unaware of that. Thank you for the info and no it was not my intent to insult although I may have out of ignorance. Apologies if I have.

Cass

Feisar - Apologies if I have.

None intended and none taken so apologies are unnecessary.

JP22

Re visiting this thread.

The Annual Garda Report for 2020 (available to download) was released by the Justice Minister on 15 Oct 2021.

Everyone has their own numbers/thoughts and perceptions re legally held firearms.

The following is a direct quote from the report.

Firearms Policy Unit

In 2020, there were circa 280,000 licensed firearms in the country, primarily licensed for reasons such as vermin control, hunting and target shooting.

Just out of boredom and of course research plus I have nothing better to do, I searched the report specifically for “guns”, “firearms”, “illegal firearms”, “legally licensed firearms”, “legally held firearms”.

Interesting results.

Guns – mentioned once under guns seized.

Firearms – mentioned numerous times mainly relating to Garda use and once for firearms seized.

Illegal Firearms - Zit, zero, nada, etc.

Legally Licensed Firearms – circa 280,000 (see above).

Legally Held Firearms -  Zit, zero, nada, etc.

I can find no reference to firearm types or calibres.

Possible someone here with more PC savvy than myself can re-check the figures.

Cass

Weapons were mentioned twice. Both in reference to check points for drink/drugs/weapons and again for the diving section searching for them.

I don't believe for a second there are 280,000 firearms. Now obviously the report said licensed firearms so that means licenses, not actual firearms, but even at that I still don't believe it for a number of reasons:

• The Minister's office only recently, with regard the semi-auto ban, said there were 234,000 licenses/licensed firearms which means there is an almost 50,000 discrepency between the Minister and AGS.
• The PULSE system has lost its accreditation since 2014 or earlier due to it being, well, piss poor.
• Other than the loss of accreditation, but being directly related to it, PULSE also is outdated in terms of who has what guns. As I mentioned before in other threads I was still on PULSE for almsot half a dozen firearms that I had sold, exported, cancelled, etc.
• Licenses do not equate to firearms. One firearm can be licensed by mulitple persons.

I still don't understand how they cannot give an exact number. I mean if AGS and DoJ are 50,000 apart then who is wrong, why, and if its AGS what faith can there be in continuing to use PULSE with such gaping holes in record keeping. As for actual firearms, well instead of counting licenses, and this would probably require an update to PULSE, record the serial numbers licensed and any overlap can be considered a dual license on the same gun.

I'm only shooting in the dark here, no pun intended, but you get my drift. There must eb some way to give actual numbers of licenses, dual licenses, firearms, etc. If all it takes is some man hours then put in the work and get the numbers.

Grizzly 45

There are better breakdowns in that report about what types of drugs that were seized than what types of the 23 firearms were seized.

Strange that they couldn't include a breakdown like that?