Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501713#Comment_118501713

The Jesuits were a bit more successful than old Ari at putting it into practice though, ensuring that our entire country was church-controlled for centuries, and our education system remains church controlled for now.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118502517#Comment_118502517

The Jesuits are around for less than 500 years. They are one of the youngest religious male orders. Just like you missunderstanding of your quotation you are lacking in understanding of church history.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118503367#Comment_118503367

That doesn’t contradict with anything that I said.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118502517#Comment_118502517

Andrew you have some very strange ideas if you don’t mind me saying so. The Department of Education was established by the Ministers and Secretaries Act of 1924, and has controlled the education system in Ireland since that time -

The Department of Education which shall comprise the administration and business generally of public services in connection with Education, including primary, secondary and university education, vocational and technical training, endowed schools, reformatories, and industrial schools, and all powers, duties and functions connected with the same, and shall include in particular the business, powers, duties and functions of the branches and officers of the public services specified in the Fourth Part of the  Schedule  to this Act, and of which Department the head shall be, and shall be styled, an t-Aire Oideachais or (in English) the Minister for Education.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1924/act/16/section/1/enacted/en/html

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118503449#Comment_118503449

Me and my strange ideas indeed

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/298604/

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118503610#Comment_118503610

Well that’s Ruari’s strange idea (and boy did he have some clangers), but that article is referring to control of Catholic schools, as opposed to control of Education. I hope you’ll forgive my Jesuitical interpretation, but the distinction is kinda important 🤔

One of Ruari’s stranger, and more memorable ideas (apart from being remembered for cutting newly qualified teachers pay at the time) has to be this one -

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/ruairi-quinns-comments-about-feminisation-of-education-go-down-like-lead-balloon-30208110.html

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118503756#Comment_118503756

Yeah, it's definitely just me and Ruairi and our strange ideas

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40274339.html

https://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2016/05/etb-vec-schools/

When 90% of schools are church schools, control of church schools IS control of education effectively.

Bhail

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/we-re-thriving-how-one-catholic-primary-school-changed-its-patronage-1.4778423

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501713#Comment_118501713

Back then though, much of that was about being true to your class and not rising above your station.

Many "deprived" kids were "shown" to the religious clergy and wrote off as dirt and treated accordingly.

One eyed Jack

Colm O’ Connor complaining, again 😒

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40793868.html

DURING this Catholic Schools’ Week, I’ll be reflecting on the fact that, for the past five years, my daughter has not been able to walk to our publicly funded village school with her friends but instead has to be driven to an equality-based primary school in a nearby town. This disruptive and unnecessary commute has not been the free expression of our ‘parental choice’. We did not want to move her or her brother, but we had no choice if we wanted to protect them from daily religious indoctrination.

That’s exactly what it’s been! Sheesh 🙄

There are some other points he makes in the article, but to state that he writes in a personal capacity, while mentioning that he’s the Principal of Cork Educate Together Secondary School is frankly, just taking the proverbial.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543667#Comment_118543667

Who needs protection from indoctrination when your father is a preacher ...

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543772#Comment_118543772

Oof! Bit mean, but damn it’s quare accurate all the same 😂

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543667#Comment_118543667

What's the problem with him confirming that he's writing in a personal capacity and not representing his school or ET?

Awful to see the sneering at a parent who wants to avoid indoctrination. Would you prefer him to keep his head down and toddle along in line to the communion and the nativity play like the 'good parents' do?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545354#Comment_118545354

The problem with I have with the footer is that it changes the entire context of the opinion piece.

It’s not all that different to your perception that I was sneering at a parent who wants to avoid indoctrination, or more accurately - his assertion that they wanted to avoid the daily religious indoctrination of their children.

It was actually an expression of disbelief at the idea that he claimed “this disruptive and unnecessary commute” he refers to, “has not been the free expression of our ‘parental choice’.”

It’s misleading to characterise the outcomes of their decisions for the education of their children as anything other than the free expression of their parental choice.

Hotblack Desiato

It's deeply ironic that the same posters who say that "it's not indoctrination", "it's all about peace and love", "it's harmless", "your right to opt out is respected" are the first in line to abuse and ridicule people who call for change which is long overdue.

Hotblack Desiato

FFS it's not hard to understand. He'd much rather send his child to the local school (as he previously did). But he knows from experience that his child will not be equally respected in that school. That's not a free expression of parental choice, it's a choice made under duress.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545461#Comment_118545461

If they had parental choice, they'd have sent their kids to the local school. Their additional commute is a manifestation of the absence of choice.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545914#Comment_118545914

They chose not to send their children to the local school, because it did not provide an education for their children consistent with their values. The additional commute is simply the manifestation of the choices they made for their childrens education. I have no doubt it’s not the only inconvenience for them, but he is complaining as though they were forced to make the decision not to send their children to the local school.

I completely get where he’s coming from, that there should be a local school which is consistent with their values for the education of their children, but the education of their children is primarily the responsibility of their parents.

Hotblack Desiato

It's really, really not too much to ask that all schools treat all pupils equally and with equal respect.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545994#Comment_118545994

That's like saying that the bank teller CHOSE to hand over the money to the man standing in front of them pointing a gun. There is no choice involved in avoiding indoctrination in Ireland.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546058#Comment_118546058

That’s not the issue HD, the issue is that the adults involved have no wish to treat each other’s values equally and with equal respect.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546526#Comment_118546526

No Andrew it’s nothing like that. The bank is the school, the teller is the staff, the irate customer making demands is the parent.

The irate customers issue is really with the regulator, not the teller. The teller and the other customers are not the issue, nor is the bank which does not provide the services the irate customer is demanding.

Bass Reeves

Nationwide is on at the moment. Great to see all the children making St Bridget Crosses. Great to see the tradition being maintained.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546627#Comment_118546627

Irate customers don't generally carry guns..

While the Department has indeed the main responsibility, there is a huge amount the schools could do today to drop the indoctrination of students of other religions and no religion, with very minor effort.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545601#Comment_118545601

Abuse and ridicule ? Hyperbole much ?

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545914#Comment_118545914

He has an option and he chose what suited his belief system, then he complains it's a little further away than a school he doesn't want.

That's just entitlement.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546627#Comment_118546627

That’s not the issue HD, the issue is that the adults involved have no wish to treat each other’s values equally and with equal respect.

It absolutely is the issue. It may be difficult to see from where you're standing, high on the hog of controlling 90% of primary schools in your favoured and discriminatory "ethos". Maybe try to look at things from someone else's perspective for a change.

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118535819#Comment_118535819

The previous issues in this school had nothing to do with patronage.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547446#Comment_118547446

Entitlement? From the people who use State funds to indoctrinate kids from other families ?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547433#Comment_118547433

Indeed, which is why the analogy was poor, and I suggested a far more accurate analogy where nobody has a gun to anyones head.

At least you’re willing to acknowledge that the department has the main responsibility to manage the education system and allocation of resources.

I take your point that there’s a huge amount schools could do to provide the form of education most amenable to your values, but that would mean foregoing their own values, and no school should have to do that. I wouldn’t encourage anyone to enrol their children in a school which is inconsistent with their values, and then attempt to undermine the values of the school. That sort of behaviour leads to outcomes like this -

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/parents-vow-to-withdraw-children-from-sex-education-class-given-by-catholic-group-1.3908704

“To this end, Educate Together will be writing to all schools under its patronage to ask them to ensure that relationships and sexuality education is delivered in a way that is consistent with its ethos and free from religious bias,” a spokesman said.

An entirely reasonable course of action from Educate Together’s perspective, IMO.

Or this -

https://www.thejournal.ie/muslim-charlie-hebdo-limerick-school-1923456-Feb2015/#comments

Now, the above example is a bit more tricky than the first, because it leans into @Hotblack Desiato ’s argument that it’s really not too much to ask that all schools treat all pupils equally and with equal respect.

It’s why I made the point that the issue is that the adults involved have no wish to treat each other’s values equally and with equal respect. Almost as if to prove my point, both yourself and HD pointed out that I would say that given what values both of you ascribed to me. I don’t take it personally because I actually do understand where both of you are coming from.

Neither of you have any business knowing that my son does a 50km commute to attend a school which both I, and his mother, agree provides an education which is consistent with our values and provides the best educational opportunities, supports, and prospects for our son’s future as an adult. My wife is not religious, it is of no consequence to her whatsoever, but she understands that not all schools are created equal, not all schools are funded equally, and a whole boatload of other criteria which parents consider for their childrens education, whether that education is provided in a traditional formal setting, or a more liberal, informal setting.

It’s precisely because I understand the OP has positioned themselves in an awful pickle that I empathise with their circumstances, and I would never sneer or jeer at anyone in similar circumstances. It’s just an incredibly immature thing to do.

It’s also why I have far less time for the Principal of an Educate Together school complaining that the daily school commute to a school which provides education consistent with their values is not a manifestation of their parental choice, and for that reason I made the point that it was misleading. For the OP, I can understand how they might have overlooked religious indoctrination or the purpose of a Catholic education (it happens!), but the Principal is not in the same position - being far more familiar with the Irish education system than most parents or guardians, they quite literally went out of their way so that their children would be spared religious indoctrination -

DURING this Catholic Schools’ Week, I’ll be reflecting on the fact that, for the past five years, my daughter has not been able to walk to our publicly funded village school with her friends but instead has to be driven to an equality-based primary school in a nearby town. This disruptive and unnecessary commute has not been the free expression of our ‘parental choice’. We did not want to move her or her brother, but we had no choice if we wanted to protect them from daily religious indoctrination.

To claim that is not the free expression of their parental choice, is the epitome of, as I suggested in the post - taking the proverbial. It’s also yet another example of the adults involved having no wish to treat each other’s values equally and with equal respect.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549518#Comment_118549518

Schools are not being asked about "foregoing their own values". They can do whatever values they want, outside the State funded mainstream curriculum. They can do their own values on their own funding, as extra curricular activities. They shouldn't be using State funding to impose their values on other people.