If the Social Democrats were in Sinn Fein's place

Sunny Disposition

When SF take power in Ireland it will be a seismic political event.

They will push extremely hard for a border poll, and even if it doesn't come for a few years, the momentum for it will be too strong to ignore. It'll just have to be held, or it'll look terribly anti democratic and that would lead to unrest.

The border poll may or may not pass, but if it does we are in for a huge historic change. Disaffected unionists, who may not be ready for constitutional change, are going to have to be dealt with.

On another note, it's past time for FF and FG to amalgamate, the differences between the parties are too small to justify being separated, given there are other options now.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982992#Comment_117982992

SF drag people down alleyways and kneecap them? jaysus - youve some imagination

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983088#Comment_117983088

How would it be terribly undemocratic if a Sinn Fein government in the South is refused a border poll in the North, which the people of the North don't want?

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983508#Comment_117983508

Well the majority of people surveyed in opinion polls in the North do want one. That could possibly turn around, but it probably won't. I think it's much more likely that a border poll will fail than that it won't be held.

Partition is going to become a major political issue in the south, and I don't think the kind of approach taken by FF and FG is going to be suitable for the coming years. There's going to have to be some genuine planning done for constitutional change, the demographics make it very unlikely the status quo will remain. It'd suit the south if it did, but it probably won't.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983805#Comment_117983805

I support the conversation being had, it will bring home to people what a mammoth task it is, and the huge cost involved for taxpayers, and maybe that will bring a dose of reality. The doe-eyed green-tinged fairytale of a united Ireland of milk and honey paid for with taxes on unicorns and rainbows needs to be put under a harsh light.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983850#Comment_117983850

Serious discussions are going to have to happen, no sign yet of FF or FG wanting to have them.

. I doubt many people think post reunification would be a land of milk and honey, it will be problematic, the unionist population and their culture will need to be catered for. Plus the northern economy is very weak. I still think the south will vote for reunification, but the north is potentially problematic if the vote passes there. How would unionism accept such a defeat?

While the Belfast Agreement was a huge success, which ended a conflict that had seen thousands of people die, unfortunately the years since have not seen reconciliation and the North is extremely divided. It's mad when you compare it to the South, the division is so stark. In an ideal world a border poll would happen in a less divided atmosphere. But it's unlikely now, it probably will happen this decade in a very acrimonious atmosphere.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984013#Comment_117984013

Support for nationalist parties in the North is declining, as is support for unionist parties. There are effectively three minorities now. The minority in the middle won't vote for change that will bring huge disruption unless there are clear benefits. The taxpayer in the South can't afford the clear benefits.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983850#Comment_117983850

The doe-eyed green-tinged fairytale of a united Ireland of milk and honey paid for with taxes on unicorns and rainbows needs to be put under a harsh light.

Nobody thinks like this. This is an ignorant line thrown out by people unwilling to take differing opinions on board.

Can I ask what the hell any of this has to do with the SD's being in SF's position?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984244#Comment_117984244

I don't know, I was just answering another poster. However, it is about Sinn Fein and the differences to the SDs

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984253#Comment_117984253

It's actually about the Social Democrats being the main opposition, being in SF's place.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983263#Comment_117983263

I never said they did as far as I recall.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982992#Comment_117982992

Neither have Sinn Fein that I am aware of. What's your point here? It reads like you are suggesting they may have? Can you clarify?

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984433#Comment_117984433

I was responding to someone else. Read the thread. Funny that you immediately assumed that I was saying SF were involved in that kind of activity isn't it.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984439#Comment_117984439

I asked you a question, because it does indeed read like you are comparing the SD's to SF and then claiming one hadn't. Can you say what your point is? Nothing funny about reading your lazy attempt at a dig, because that's how it reads. If you want to clarify and say that's not what you intended, great.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984493#Comment_117984493

Kneecapping and punishment beatings have occurred on the island of Ireland. I assume we can agree on that?

Where we will disagree (for some reason) is that you will deny that SF ever had anything to do with it. I am not sure who you will blame but you will stick your fingers in your ears and claim that it never had anything to do with SF. That is where we will disagree.

When we think of kneecapping in this country we immediately think of SF/IRA and other paramilitaries. For some reason you will now claim that SF were never involved with these activities. Nothing anyone will say will convince you otherwise. It would be like explaining to Gemma Doherty why getting a vaccine is a good idea.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984531#Comment_117984531

That's all cool. So Maccord was correct. Just wanted clarity. Shinner rant understood.

I'm not aware of MLMD and Co. knee capping anyone. If you are talking the IRA of the last century, I'd agree. You clearly tried to compare the Social Democrats of today to IRA stories from last century and current SF in 2021. As I said, lazy.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984550#Comment_117984550

Does & co include everyone currently in the SF membership both north and south?

Are you going to respond to the point or (as I said you would) stick your fingers in your ears and deny it ever happened?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984550#Comment_117984550

They did replace it with the Padre Pio, and I think this was still being administered by the PIRA this century.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984595#Comment_117984595

Yes it does. You might be referencing the former IRA lads, who likely where? You were comparing SF to the SD's. That would be in the present day.

I wanted clarity for you and I that you were getting in a dig at SF using knee capping. Neither of us were sure, but now we know and Maccord was correct. Thanks.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984602#Comment_117984602

MLMD's SF? Have you told the Garda?

Pawwed Rig

I would also note that the SD never held kangaroo courts in their constituency offices (again that we are aware of).

A dig implies an insult or a taunt. Stating a fact does not qualify as a dig unless you are insulted by the stated fact. Unclear whether that is the case or not as you are just dismissing the point rather than confirming or denying that it happened or how you feel about the practise. I assume you condemn it and all who are involved in it by way of the actions themselves or the turning a blind eye.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984715#Comment_117984715

Another dig. You earlier claimed you didn't recall that you were claiming SF did kneecapping. Now you are doubling down. Fair play. I never denied there is that history. Things like kneecapping, did happen. It was clarity on what you were saying I asked for, not my opinion on it, which I know.

I am against any and all violence. I am not going to equate the Social Democrats today to SF or the IRA of the past. It's a silly and lazy effort to get digs in at MLMD/SF. Neither will I discuss the armed wing of FF/FG/Green holding similar kangaroo courts for abused members of their armed forces.

You are talking about issues, in the past, up north, on the thread about if the SD's replaced SF in the south. There's a shinner rant thread already.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984823#Comment_117984823

The thing is, the reason that the SDs of today are considered so different to the SF of today (which is essentially the question of the thread), is because of the differences in respect of their past, some of which continues today. Catherine Murphy has never expressed a view that the PIRA were right, Mary-Lou has, that explains the difference. The other posts put flesh on that.

You might explain the reference to the armed wing of FF/FG/Green? I didn't realise they operated a private army as SF did.

Edit: Actually, forget the last question, I would only be going off-topic with you on some demented fantastical road-trip

Pawwed Rig

I didn't say that.

Good to hear that you at least acknowledge their role in punishment beatings and shootings and condemn them although you seem oblivious to the fact that it happened in the 26 counties aswell (although that doesn't make it any better or worse). The question is then does it still go on? Or how long ago is too recent. SF (imo) can never be acceptable to a moral person until they come clean on their past or all the relevant players have moved on.

You will still hear people advised to talk to the local SF councillor where there is antisocial behaviour in an area.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984860#Comment_117984860

I think he is talking about Oglaigh na hEireann and military tribunals

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984866#Comment_117984866

It is a bit bizarre to claim that the Irish Army is a private army of three political parties. One wonders.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984862#Comment_117984862

Point is you referenced knee capping in a comparison of SD and SF. That's all I wanted clarity on. You going on to rant about shinners and such is for you. I've no interest in the circular rehash of jaded scenarios in which most of us aren't interested. I know it's a comfort zone when the government is criticised but it's kinda boring for most of us.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984876#Comment_117984876

Who claimed such a thing? Do FF/FG/Green not over see the Irish armed forces? Have they not been dealing or more accurately not dealing with victims of abuse and not passing them on to Garda?

Anyway my part in this jaded Shinner rant is over.

landofthetree

SD or SF won't last in government. They won't be able to take hard decisions.

(I wouldn't vote for FG or FF. They aren't pro business and committed to reducing personal taxes)

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985127#Comment_117985127

So where's the better option if that's what you want?

landofthetree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985154#Comment_117985154

There isn't an option. So I will vote independent.

The electorate don't seem to want tax cuts. Everyone seems to think that increasing taxes and spending more is the solution to our problems. No party wants to reform.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985127#Comment_117985127

Have you heard of the housing crisis? Cuckoo funds are kinds of business.

landofthetree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985245#Comment_117985245

Well if they reduced all the ridiculous planning laws then more houses would be built. Small builders would also be able to expand.

Also SF want to increase planning red tape.

"Sinn Féin spokesperson on Housing, Eoin Ó Broin TD, speaking ahead of the Housing Committee meeting this morning, has called for the fast track planning legislation to be abolished immediately."

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985181#Comment_117985181

But do you genuinely believe FG are not even a small bit better than the avowedly 'left' parties on these issues? Because if you think they are even slightly preferable to the SDs or whoever, the rational thing to do is to give them a lower preference.

landofthetree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985331#Comment_117985331

FG increased public spending by 11billion from 2016 to 2019.

They are a tax and spend party.

I guess FG would be better at making cuts. SD SF etc live in a fantasy world where cuts will never have to be made. They don't seem to grasp that the government doesn't decide that. Its whoever loans you the money.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985293#Comment_117985293

Probably weary of FF/FG/Green rushing through more bad developments.

I think the move by every other party and many experts to get away from what the government are doing, would be a good idea.

landofthetree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985468#Comment_117985468

Or keeping the crisis going.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985479#Comment_117985479

Well all I know is FF/FG/Green are doing a great job at keeping the crisis going. Everyone and their dog says their new plans will make matters worse and both SF and SD want to move away from what FF/FG/Green are doing, so I don't see how that's the goal. Agreeing with everything FF/FG/Green would achieve that.

landofthetree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985493#Comment_117985493

SF and SDs claim to support the Nordic model.

The Nordic model includes:

High Rise developments

Water taxes

Property taxes

Fast track planning for housing.

Funny how they are against all of the above.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985493#Comment_117985493

all I know is FF/FG/Green are doing a great job at keeping the crisis going.

That does seem to be pretty much all you know. Unfortunately, it is a very limited and blinkered knowledge. We could do with changing the record as it is stuck in a groove. Truth is nobody knows what SF and SD want, because all they seem to be is against everything.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985543#Comment_117985543

It is quite strange that all of the left-wing parties are against left-wing policies common across Europe.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988049#Comment_117988049

It seems you don't know anything about what SD/SF/PBP etc. have planned but are happy to prop up failed policies.

I know we need a change, which is more than you.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988065#Comment_117988065

Tell me about these wonderful policies planned by Sinn Fein and the SDs. Tell me how they will fix the planning process to deliver more housing. Tell me where they will get all the builders to build these houses that fly through the planning process. Tell me more, I'm all ears as to how this will work. Tell me how Sinn Fein will get more consultants into hospitals while paying them less and taxing them more.

Or will I just get tumbleweed?

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988080#Comment_117988080

The claim was you can't comment or criticise if you've no alternative. That's nonsense. There was alternatives given. Just because people might pretend it isn't any better doesn't mean there's none.

We are buying and leasing builds all the time. Somebody is building them.

The shinner gave an interview, go listen. That's what we were talking about. If you don't know you've no business trying to jump in. I'm not here to recap or bring you up to speed. Pointing out **** government policy is the duty of the opposition and any decent government minister, if you can find one.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988140#Comment_117988140

Well, tell me about these alternatives. You keep saying that there are alternatives but I can't find a post where you detail one.

Build more houses is about as far as your alternatives go. You have a whole thread to point out **** government policy, do it there. This thread is about the SDs and SF, so asking for their alternatives is a very reasonable question.