If the Social Democrats were in Sinn Fein's place

skimpydoo

If the Social Democrats were in Sinn Fein's place and the party with the most seats in the Dail, would the FFG supporters on here be willing to give them a chance? Or would they want to make sure FFG stays in power?

One eyed Jack

What sort of party supporters would anyone be if they were willing to give any other parties a chance in Government?

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925750#Comment_117925750

I am just trying to show them up for what they are.

L1011

Its very easy to tear in to the SocDems and explain why they would be unsuitable to be the main party of Government:

1: They basically have no policies, at least none of their own. What they have are just a subset of another parties. They cannot differentiate themselves from that party expect by "we weren't in Government".

2: One of their co-leaders upped and left Government rather than actually fight a fight. That doesn't work when the issues are more serious.

3: They don't have a proper leadership structure (often something said against SF)

So no, I don't think you'll find people who are anti-SF in Government welcoming the SDs in the same place.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925757#Comment_117925757

FG supporters supporting FG seems kinda obvious tbh, that’s why when I read the question I figured there must be something I’m missing. It appears what I’m missing is your opinions of people based upon their political affiliation. Never mind attempting to show anyone else up for what they are, you’re showing yourself up for what you are is all you’re doing right now tbh.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925808#Comment_117925808

What you are missing is FFG supporters who blindly vote them back in after seeing them fook up the country. What will it take for them to vote for someone else for a change.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925822#Comment_117925822

Ok, well that’s a much more straightforward question. I imagine as far as FG supporters are concerned, FG haven’t fecked up the country, and they’re likely to support FG policies. They can at least point to coherent FG policies, whereas other parties they probably could point to the fact that they lack any coherent policies. I suppose if another party had coherent policies that were similar to FG’s aims for Irish society, FG supporters might be consider supporting them too.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058209994/if-the-social-democrats-were-in-sinn-feins-place

No , the Soc Dems are the WOKE ultras of Irish politics.

Spend more time being concerned with issues like gender identity than bread and butter staple issue's

A party for students and professional activists but not for the real world

Plus Roisin Shorthall is the biggest waffler to ever sit in the dail

Sierra Oscar

A party that cannot even decide who leads it isn't capable of running the country.

Larbre34

I would, early on in their existence, have been inclined to give them a preference, but at this point, no. I agree with others that they focus far too much on niche social issues, aim their message squarely at the younger, educated voter, with the naturally socialist tendencies of youth.

On that basis, they don't possess the fabric of a governing Party, not just on the number of seats, but on the deep practicalities of being in power. I'm sure I'm not the only one who expects them to reunite with Labour at some point and I've always had the feeling that both are in limbo until they do. If they want a decent tilt at making combined gains in 2025, they must do it soon and begin a comprehensive message of what they're about.

For Forks Sake

Can't make a decision on a party leader, let alone make difficult decisions on substantive issues.

Pack of watery whingers

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925757#Comment_117925757

Who are you trying to "show them up for what they are" People who didn't vote SF in the last election?

Just because a certain party leader claimed to "win" the election it does not represent the population.

Good luck to SF making up a Government without FFG as you call them.

I see sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925905#Comment_117925905

People who say "WOKE" need help.

dudley72

I would suggest before you start a thread like this you should at least attempt to do some kind of research. Accusing people of blindly voting for political parties is rubbish. One read of all of the political parties manifesto from the last election tells a lot?

Also a statement like "I am just trying to show them up for what they are"?? Who are you trying to show up and why?

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926185#Comment_117926185

Is there any party whose voters don't blindly vote for them?

The idea that supporters of other parties are more likely to be more informed or judicious about how they cast their vote is fairly fanciful.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926185#Comment_117926185

Yes but only if the government were to the right of FG or FF

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926185#Comment_117926185

Leaving aside that stupid sheep comment can you explain how if SF + IND + GB + LAB + SD + SPBP got into government tomorrow they would make everything so great?

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926185#Comment_117926185

You are not really, others have pointed this out. You clearly don't understand politics or the people of Ireland so I will leave you to it.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926092#Comment_117926092

It's become a catch all term for arrogant rich kids, it's often not about any policy position now.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926263#Comment_117926263

Tax payer put before private often foreign business interests. No more leasing for 25 years with no option to buy and passing it off as a good deal. No more treating 'emergency accommodation' as a normal part of the housing system. Better value for the tax payer with more social housing builds instead of buying and leasing. People before profit, (good name for a party that).

We might actual see a result from Moriarty (after it's dusted off) and the siteserv investigation.

TBF, it likely wouldn't last because they'd likely hold each other to account. But that's a positive.

Wouldn't last?

They wouldn't last till lunchtime. 🤣

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926359#Comment_117926359

Ahh it is good to see the party political broadcast.

Sf would achieve none of the above, we all know it and even the most blind SF supports knows it as well.

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926359#Comment_117926359

My question to the other poster was "can you explain how if SF + IND + GB + LAB + SD + SPBP got into government tomorrow they would make everything so great?"

Reply: Moriarty tribunal and siteserv investigation etc.

On the 25 year lease do you think it would be better to allow the tenants to purchase the properties at a snip of the original price or let the tax payer pick up the tab for the refurb?

For Forks Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926263#Comment_117926263

Not a chance PBP would go into government, their existence is predicated on hurling from the ditch. And they'd find some excuse about the other parties beiing "not the right sort of socialist" to duck out.

As shown by last weeks confidence motion in Coveney, INDs aren't a singular hive mind either, and a good half of the current cohort wouldn't join a coalition lead by SF

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926185#Comment_117926185

No, because someone needs to be the adult in the friggin room.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926489#Comment_117926489

Most of the current Independents were in a party before and only two of them are ex-SF? Nolan and Pringle. The majority of them come from party backgrounds that would not support an SF-led melange.

McGrath, O'Donoghue are ex FF and both Healey-Raes are FF genepool

Lowry, Fitzpatrick, Naughton, Murphy are ex FG. Shanahan is FG gene pool.

Connolly, McNamara are ex Labour

Grealish is ex PDs

Think that leaves 5 that were Independent from the off and I just may not know some history for those!

For Forks Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926532#Comment_117926532

Nolan is indeed ex-SF but she was put out for opposing the repeal of the 8th and is closer to the Mattie McGrath school of thought these days.

Marian Harkin is IND through and through but would be fairly centrist.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926575#Comment_117926575

Just an example of how few of the Inds would be obvious supporters of such a government

Many have very little in common with their former parties at this stage of course - McNamara particularly. Of those with no known previous party support you have people like Berry who would vote for an FF/FG government any day.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926467#Comment_117926467

Very telling how you read a SF political broadcast from that.

I'll leave you to it.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926479#Comment_117926479

I listed a lot more than that. At least be honest.

I know tribunals and investigations are just something FF/FG start to kick problems down the road but we spend a **** ton of money investigating these things. No follow through has us with people like Coveney and Varadkar ffs.

There is no comparison. A 25 year lease with no option to buy, is a horrible deal for the tax payer. We should not be engaging in it.

I do believe we should be providing housing tax payers can afford. I get the sense you are more concerned with people getting a better deal than you did rather than what's good for our collective tax payers. I'm not happy as a tax payer to continue to pay through the nose to private concerns because people like yourself want everyone to get ripped off like you might have.

Every time a person gets priced out of the market the tax payer is on the hook to pick up the slack. Every time the tax payer pays for 25 year leases they are robbed and the market gets worse. It's a circular FF/FG/Green maintained crisis. Have I answered your question?

I believe this practice would end if FF/FG were out.

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926677#Comment_117926677

"I believe this practice would end if FF/FG were out."

Back to my original question:

"My question to the other poster was "can you explain how if SF + IND + GB + LAB + SD + SPBP got into government tomorrow they would make everything so great?"

jimmycrackcorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926185#Comment_117926185

Why do you think people blindly follow FF or FG?

If anything, I think people blindly follow SF. They somehow believe that voting in SF will fix health and housing simply because of all the noise they make about it. For example, some people voted FG because FG pushed for water charges and those people think that water charges are logical being the norm in every other country in Europe, and also something that is provided to us no differently as is electricity or gas. So the blind people to them are those who totally ignore the fact that not enough money is being pumped into water infrastructure because tax revenue has to be shared across the board.

I'd say the sheep are the ones who blindly follow the populist narrative.

jimmycrackcorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926677#Comment_117926677

The thing is, everyone is complaining but don't have any actual solutions or alternatives. Because the only alternatives are largely unpalatable to the voting public. when even SF representatives, including their housing spokesperson and leader, are objecting to developments in their constituency, then you can be sure there won't be any changes.

Objections to large housing schemes are inevitable (irishtimes.com)

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058209994/if-the-social-democrats-were-in-sinn-feins-place

If the Social Democrats were in Sinn Fein's place after the last election, they would be in government now.

Why? Because their policies aren't as nonsensical as Sinn Fein's, and also because their politicians don't carry the criminal baggage that Sinn Fein carry. There were no SD politicians singing "Up the Ra" when they got elected for example.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925757#Comment_117925757

The only thing you are showing is a in a lack understanding of how a parliament of Westminster style democracy works!

It is not a question of giving any party a chance! The people elect individual TDs to represent them in parliament not parties.. Your entire argument is undemocratic as it would deny people their right to representation in parliament.

Your argument has no basis whatsoever in an Irish context unless the constitution is changed and given that the Irish people twice voted against changing the PR system, the chances of them ever agreeing to your ideas is zero.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925822#Comment_117925822

Start living in the real world, they did not blindly vote them back in! Voters made a deliberate decision to cast their votes in a particular manner because those parties represent their views. And if you took any time to study is political history you’d know that many of our elections demonstrated the voters ability decide what is in their best interests as it is not unknown for Irish governments to loose constitutional referenda held on the same day as other elections.

When the only argument a party has is that voters voted blindly for the other parties, then it’s no argument! But it is a convenient side step for people unwilling accept the obvious - they failed to convince the voters. And of course the very same argument could be leveled at those making the claim.

You need to come up with some better argument.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926489#Comment_117926489

They would have to. If a non-FF/FG government becomes a realistic possibility after the next election all sections of the left would be under massive pressure from their supporters to get on board. Agree with you about the inds though.

jimmycrackcorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927205#Comment_117927205

The left can't agree amongst themselves never mind support a government. How many voters know which party Paul murphy is in now?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925757#Comment_117925757

Which is what exactly?

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926092#Comment_117926092

A good kick in the bollocks is what they need.

markodaly

There is no comparison. A 25 year lease with no option to buy, is a horrible deal for the tax payer. We should not be engaging in it.

To be clear, its local authorities that sign those leases, not the Government. This alone shows us you know very very little.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927232#Comment_117927232

Does Paul Murphy even really know what party he's in?

In theory he's in a party that is in itself in another party which ads to the confusion.

I like their TDs but their voters are just ex-Labour supporters.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926575#Comment_117926575

Independent but sat with FFs group in Europe and has been courted by FG.

quokula

Ireland has gone from an occupied colony where poverty was rife to what is recognised by bodies like the UN as one of the best countries to live in on the planet in about 100 years. All the people who think the governments of various stripes have "wrecked" the country need to see more of the world. We don't have infinite resources, we aren't omnipotent, and there isn't an easy fix to every problem.

We have an excellent voting system in this country and a good tradition of cross party cooperation. Proportional representation means that vocal minorities like Sinn Fein supporters don't get to dictate the direction of the country over other groups of parties that represent far more of the country and are willing to work together for the common good. I'll accept any government that our system produces, but will continue to hope that a large enough portion of our population will continue to see Sinn Fein as the lying charlatans that they are.

I wouldn't put the Social Democrats in the same category as Sinn Fein as they have no history of justifying violence or of using flag waving nationalism to pull the wool over people's eyes, but they have not yet put forward a solid enough agenda to get enough support to become a real political force. Personally I'd like to see them come back into the fold of a rejuvenated Labour party, who's only real sin was being in government and therefore having to deal with reality instead of fantasy.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927232#Comment_117927232

There has been no great incentive for them to put aside their differences up to now. The prize of a non-FF/FG government would be the ultimate concentrator of minds in that regard.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927774#Comment_117927774

THey had the chance last year, SF ran for the hill never to show their face till the negotiations started between FF/FG/Greens. PBP had to go to the press to ask SF to even start a discussion. Even the Greens sat down with SF first before they disappeared.

Will it be any different next time? I doubt it

The Simpson episode when Burns set off the fire alarm comes to mind, loads of people running around without a clue what to do.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927590#Comment_117927590

We are supposed to ignore all of this and believe a party which only record in government is the shambles they have made of Northern Ireland.Yet everyone who doesn't believe SF lies gets accused of been "sheep". Hilarious

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927935#Comment_117927935

The numbers weren't there in practice to form such a government. A non-FF/FG government in this Dail would require the support of most of the independents, many of whom, as pointed out elsewhere in the thread, are quite conservative and have no natural affinity with SF. SF would have just made themselves a laughing stock by trying to woo Noel Grealish, Peter Fitzpatrick, Verona Murphy et al.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928018#Comment_117928018

If SF had got the Greens onboard, then more would have followed.They never even tried, yet we have SF supporters going on about getting blocked or they want another election. If SF had all of the left with the Greens etc then they would have forced something to happen

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926317#Comment_117926317

the minute someone starts uses phrases like 'you clearly dont understand politics or the people of ireland' i stop reading.