If the Social Democrats were in Sinn Fein's place

jimmycrackcorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926185#Comment_117926185

Why do you think people blindly follow FF or FG?

If anything, I think people blindly follow SF. They somehow believe that voting in SF will fix health and housing simply because of all the noise they make about it. For example, some people voted FG because FG pushed for water charges and those people think that water charges are logical being the norm in every other country in Europe, and also something that is provided to us no differently as is electricity or gas. So the blind people to them are those who totally ignore the fact that not enough money is being pumped into water infrastructure because tax revenue has to be shared across the board.

I'd say the sheep are the ones who blindly follow the populist narrative.

jimmycrackcorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926677#Comment_117926677

The thing is, everyone is complaining but don't have any actual solutions or alternatives. Because the only alternatives are largely unpalatable to the voting public. when even SF representatives, including their housing spokesperson and leader, are objecting to developments in their constituency, then you can be sure there won't be any changes.

Objections to large housing schemes are inevitable (irishtimes.com)

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058209994/if-the-social-democrats-were-in-sinn-feins-place

If the Social Democrats were in Sinn Fein's place after the last election, they would be in government now.

Why? Because their policies aren't as nonsensical as Sinn Fein's, and also because their politicians don't carry the criminal baggage that Sinn Fein carry. There were no SD politicians singing "Up the Ra" when they got elected for example.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925757#Comment_117925757

The only thing you are showing is a in a lack understanding of how a parliament of Westminster style democracy works!

It is not a question of giving any party a chance! The people elect individual TDs to represent them in parliament not parties.. Your entire argument is undemocratic as it would deny people their right to representation in parliament.

Your argument has no basis whatsoever in an Irish context unless the constitution is changed and given that the Irish people twice voted against changing the PR system, the chances of them ever agreeing to your ideas is zero.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925822#Comment_117925822

Start living in the real world, they did not blindly vote them back in! Voters made a deliberate decision to cast their votes in a particular manner because those parties represent their views. And if you took any time to study is political history you’d know that many of our elections demonstrated the voters ability decide what is in their best interests as it is not unknown for Irish governments to loose constitutional referenda held on the same day as other elections.

When the only argument a party has is that voters voted blindly for the other parties, then it’s no argument! But it is a convenient side step for people unwilling accept the obvious - they failed to convince the voters. And of course the very same argument could be leveled at those making the claim.

You need to come up with some better argument.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926489#Comment_117926489

They would have to. If a non-FF/FG government becomes a realistic possibility after the next election all sections of the left would be under massive pressure from their supporters to get on board. Agree with you about the inds though.

jimmycrackcorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927205#Comment_117927205

The left can't agree amongst themselves never mind support a government. How many voters know which party Paul murphy is in now?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925757#Comment_117925757

Which is what exactly?

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926092#Comment_117926092

A good kick in the bollocks is what they need.

markodaly

There is no comparison. A 25 year lease with no option to buy, is a horrible deal for the tax payer. We should not be engaging in it.

To be clear, its local authorities that sign those leases, not the Government. This alone shows us you know very very little.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927232#Comment_117927232

Does Paul Murphy even really know what party he's in?

In theory he's in a party that is in itself in another party which ads to the confusion.

I like their TDs but their voters are just ex-Labour supporters.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926575#Comment_117926575

Independent but sat with FFs group in Europe and has been courted by FG.

quokula

Ireland has gone from an occupied colony where poverty was rife to what is recognised by bodies like the UN as one of the best countries to live in on the planet in about 100 years. All the people who think the governments of various stripes have "wrecked" the country need to see more of the world. We don't have infinite resources, we aren't omnipotent, and there isn't an easy fix to every problem.

We have an excellent voting system in this country and a good tradition of cross party cooperation. Proportional representation means that vocal minorities like Sinn Fein supporters don't get to dictate the direction of the country over other groups of parties that represent far more of the country and are willing to work together for the common good. I'll accept any government that our system produces, but will continue to hope that a large enough portion of our population will continue to see Sinn Fein as the lying charlatans that they are.

I wouldn't put the Social Democrats in the same category as Sinn Fein as they have no history of justifying violence or of using flag waving nationalism to pull the wool over people's eyes, but they have not yet put forward a solid enough agenda to get enough support to become a real political force. Personally I'd like to see them come back into the fold of a rejuvenated Labour party, who's only real sin was being in government and therefore having to deal with reality instead of fantasy.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927232#Comment_117927232

There has been no great incentive for them to put aside their differences up to now. The prize of a non-FF/FG government would be the ultimate concentrator of minds in that regard.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927774#Comment_117927774

THey had the chance last year, SF ran for the hill never to show their face till the negotiations started between FF/FG/Greens. PBP had to go to the press to ask SF to even start a discussion. Even the Greens sat down with SF first before they disappeared.

Will it be any different next time? I doubt it

The Simpson episode when Burns set off the fire alarm comes to mind, loads of people running around without a clue what to do.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927590#Comment_117927590

We are supposed to ignore all of this and believe a party which only record in government is the shambles they have made of Northern Ireland.Yet everyone who doesn't believe SF lies gets accused of been "sheep". Hilarious

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927935#Comment_117927935

The numbers weren't there in practice to form such a government. A non-FF/FG government in this Dail would require the support of most of the independents, many of whom, as pointed out elsewhere in the thread, are quite conservative and have no natural affinity with SF. SF would have just made themselves a laughing stock by trying to woo Noel Grealish, Peter Fitzpatrick, Verona Murphy et al.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928018#Comment_117928018

If SF had got the Greens onboard, then more would have followed.They never even tried, yet we have SF supporters going on about getting blocked or they want another election. If SF had all of the left with the Greens etc then they would have forced something to happen

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926317#Comment_117926317

the minute someone starts uses phrases like 'you clearly dont understand politics or the people of ireland' i stop reading.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926969#Comment_117926969

i think what the op is saying is that a life long government of either FF or FG (which is what we have had) is a tad boring. the OP is correct on that.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928108#Comment_117928108

I agree it is a bit boring and there are some parts of society that could definitely be improved but all in all we are doing alright as a country. Even the worst off people have more opportunities now than the average person 30 years ago. With SF I would say be careful what you wish for as this country could be a hell of a lot worse.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928104#Comment_117928104

You do realise that was all that was in the post. So everyone would have stopped reading it then.

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927104#Comment_117927104

Can only be posted by someone that has never read their policies.

https://www.socialdemocrats.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/RentersCharter-Jul2021.pdf

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926969#Comment_117926969

There is no comparison. A 25 year lease with no option to buy, is a horrible deal for the tax payer. We should not be engaging in it.

I do believe we should be providing housing tax payers can afford. I get the sense you are more concerned with people getting a better deal than you did rather than what's good for our collective tax payers. I'm not happy as a tax payer to continue to pay through the nose to private concerns because people like yourself want everyone to get ripped off like you might have.

I know tribunals and investigations are just something FF/FG start to kick problems down the road but we spend a **** ton of money investigating these things. No follow through has us with people like Coveney and Varadkar ffs.

Every time a person gets priced out of the market the tax payer is on the hook to pick up the slack. Every time the tax payer pays for 25 year leases they are robbed and the market gets worse. It's a circular FF/FG/Green maintained crisis. Have I answered your question?

I believe this practice would end if FF/FG were out.

Put simply: To answer your question for a 3rd time:

An end to being so reliant on the private market. This will save the tax payer money.

An end to well worn cronyism, for at least some time.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927042#Comment_117927042

That's simply not the case. The solutions put forward by numerous bodies and parties are build more social and affordable. Don't depend so much on buying and leasing.

Every time they object they give reasons. It's usually regarding build to rentals and other private builds the state is in the wings waiting to throw tax payer money at. And this is beyond just SF.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928772#Comment_117928772

Build more social and affordable? Just a populist slogan.

We have one poster in here a while back who made a complete fool of himself trying to argue that developers would take zero profit and it would be cheaper to build social and affordable housing.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929730#Comment_117929730

Sounds completely ridiculous. Are you calling FF/FG/Green populist?

Have you ever paid a tradesman to carry out a job of work? Did he just want paying for materials? Sounds like you have trouble understanding how business works maybe? When you pay someone to build you a house you pay them for materials and their labour. No wonder FF/FG/Green strike such bad deals believing the only option is buying or leasing.

If you think developers build for companies at a loss I think you've no idea how construction industry or the housing market works. Do you think all these hedge fund investors are picking up trowels or paying people to build for them? 😎

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930263#Comment_117930263

Populism is something Gaelers just say instinctually when they're bungling something and they don't have any answers because their brains have been hijacked by neoliberalism and a simple Simon worldview long ago - kind of like when you accidentally trod on a dogs paw and it yelps. You know you've hurt the creature when they wheel out 'populism'. It's in their handbook of "Tight Spots you May Find Yourself In When Defending Sh*tty Policy" that you'll find in freshers packs when you join YFG.

Chilling, sinister etc

CDarby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930329#Comment_117930329

More of this guy's input please! A way with words like no other, very very refreshing, nor afraid to say it as it is.