2021 NFL season - Week 3 thread

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117947153#Comment_117947153

Well I never said 'winz' in my life. And I do rate clutch performances, as in playoff performances, highly. It's more than that though, it's the whole package and wining in the playoffs is part of that.

Like Phillip Rivers was a very good QB but I'll never rate him great due to his playoff performances.

Everybody makes mistakes, the best learn from them and never make the same mistake again.

We are talking about a rookie QB here who hasn't shown anything yet in the NFL. You are saying he should be starting ahead of a guy whose brought his team to a Superbowl in the last normal season.

You have nothing to support that notion. You have a coach who is rated very highly who obviously doesn't think he's ready yet. He might at some stage this season or it may be next year. Remember Andy Reid sat Mahomes for a full season and that worked out pretty well.

Impatience may be your issue.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117947246#Comment_117947246

When Jimmy played GB in the NFC Championship game that year he completed 6 passes in the entire game.

'QB Winz' is the football analytics joke towards people who rate players the way you do - giving a key focus to wins their team has. Last night again showed why it is at best flawed or at worst a stupid measure. If Crosby misses that kick, Jimmy gets a 'clutch' win and if Crosby makes the kick - the win Rodgers gets a 'clutch' win. There is very little true value to the stat - we've discussed this before so I'll leave that there.

I am the one that actually watches every 49ers game and I see little to nothing that supports that Jimmy is doing anything that Lance couldn't do or be schemed by Shanahan to provide better options. Shanahan clearly has lost all faith in Jimmy unless their backs are against the wall and it has been like this since early last season. Kyle has basically removed or Jimmy refuses to throw further than 15 yards down the field and anything outside of the numbers aside from the odd prayer pass. Defenses keep stacking the box because they know Jimmy can't/won't beat them which then hurts the run game (which needs all the help it can get). Jimmy is also prone to at least one rookie like mistake a game, last night being a Mac Jones like reverse spike, and Jimmy isn't even accurate with his short and mid level passes anymore which hurts YAC potential.

Your second last paragraph shows that you're just being contrary for the sake of it - you have no real opinion at all whether Lance is ready now, later in the year, or some time in the future, you just want to disagree for the sake of it. Interesting that my belief during a week 3 game that Lance could be an option is 'impatience' to you yet you claimed your rookie 'looked ready' and wanted him to be the regular season starter after the NE preseason game... sounds like hypocrisy.

eagle eye

Firstly, I don't call any regular season win a clutch performance, well maybe from week 15 onwards when your season is on the line. Maybe it can be considered clutch but it won't change my opinion on a player if he does it in the regular season.

I'm talking about the playoffs when you are up against a top D and everything is on the line.

So you think Shanahan has lost all faith in Jimmy, well what does that spay about Lance then?

I've watched every 49ers game this season. I'm still trying to grasp this offense where they are so successful running the ball. If it were me drafting for them I'd have looked at Samuel, Aiyuk and Kittle and decided I needed a really good passing QB. It's not me though, it's Shanahan and a fantastic offense that keeps going no matter whose injured.

Actually I don't have it to hand but what's their win/loss record when Jimmy has been injured?

My second paragraph is all truth. You have nothing to back up your claim that Lance could be better than Jimmy. Shanahan has first hand knowledge. And whether that's him holding back Lance or not being confident about his abilities we don't know. And I reminded you that Andy Reid sat Patrick Mahomes for a full season. No lies or made up stuff there.

And again, sounds like you are just impatient.

collybyrne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931643#Comment_117931643

11 - 5 for the week. 31 - 17 overall.

Tough break for the Lions but watching Tuckers kick live really felt like watching history in the making. Especially the drama of it hitting the cross bar and having to wait to see what side it landed, felt like time stood still for a second! It will get lost in the noise of the kick but you can clearly see what Campbell is doing with the Lions and it's quite remarkable. Even within the space of three games you can clearly see their identity, how much they want to play for the coach and each other and how well they've competed with some of the best teams in the league. Dan Hanzus spoke over the weekend of being a Jets fan and not asking for much, just wanting to see some tangible idea of an identity, a style of play and some marginal improvement week on week. Campbell has given that to the Lions and I'm excited to see how far he can take them this year.

Chargers Chiefs lived up to the billing anyways and congrats to Herbert and any Charger's fans in here. This was the weekend they confirmed themselves as one of the top teams in the league for me and with that guy at quarterback and Staley as head coach the future is extremely bright there. Rodgers pulls another rabbit out of the hat in what is an absolute heartbreaker for the 49ers. Its early days yet but those are the games SF need to see out if they're to be taken seriously I think. And full credit to the Rams as well. I know the Bucs secondary was decimated but I thought some of the play design and the route running of their receivers was as good as anything I've seen, regardless of who was out there on D. When the defence gets that pumped up and that emotionally invested in a game they can be almost unplayable too. Only the Bucs would have put 24 on them in that mood and not many teams will hold the Bucs to that score or less this season.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928105#Comment_117928105

10-6 leads me to 31 - 17.

paulie21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930608#Comment_117930608

10-6 brings me to 28-20

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117947940#Comment_117947940

I see you completely ignored me pointing out your hypocrisy in calling for your rookie QB to start after some preseason games against mostly backups yet you again say I'm impatient... 😂

You got me, Jimmy has a better win/loss record than Beathard and Mullens - give him a gold jacket.

Kyle was very open about why he didn't want to draft a Jimmy 2.0 and went with Lance, he sees the value in having a QB that causes the defense to play 11 on 11 football with a QB who is also a good passer and an arm strength to make any throw. I thought you said that no one can question Kyle's judgement yet it seems like you are here with the QB pick...

49ers haven't been successful running the ball though recently. Since the 2019 season, teams have worked out what the offense is doing due to Jimmy's limitations and/or Kyle's refusal to trust him with chunk plays and they just crowd the run and short/mid pass areas. This is made worse by how frequently Jimmy is inaccurate on these passes which causes so many to fall incomplete or the receiver to have no chance at making YAC. Here is Kittle talking about it post game and then a below it is a video example of what defenses over and over

https://twitter.com/hutchdiesel/status/1442361803128795137?s=20

https://twitter.com/richjmadrid/status/1442533558216626186?s=20

eagle eye

You see in New England it was a case of going with a pocket passer or a running QB. Our history suggests that under Belichick we are much better with a pocket passer. Just look at last year with a running QB, worst season in New England for Belichick, worst season as OC for Josh McDaniels.

So I went and checked and Jimmy in 26-9 as 49ers starter. I couldn't be bothered trying to find stats for his replacements but it's obviously pretty bad when Shanahan's 49ers are 6-24 without Jimmy.

I asked you for those stats but obviously it'd make you look stupid so you didn't post them.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949926#Comment_117949926

You talk about pocket passer vs running QB. Is Jimmy a better pocket passer than Lance? Lance can make throws Jimmy can't and I am not sure that the reverse is true. Jimmy is struggling to lead the team to wins when it is put on his back and is not safe enough to be a game manager. We know Kyle has no faith in Jimmy to win. Otherwise he wouldn't have mortgaged the future to get replace him.

I don't know what your stats point to other than bad QBs are bad? None of them are running QBs either and none of them are Trey Lance.

I can only imagine he is seeing the other rookie QBs struggle and figuring he will stick to the Mahomes method to build for the future because this team will struggle to make play offs with Jimmy at QB.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950219#Comment_117950219

I was specifically talking about the Patriots situation when I spoke about pocket passer Vs running QB.

One would imagine a QB that can run is a good option for Shanahan's offense.

I said that I'd suspect that Shanahan is hoping that a year behind Jimmy will help Trey Lance.

You are attributing things to me which I never said. Maybe read through my posts again.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950388#Comment_117950388

Yeah no coach has gone "I want a running QB or a passing QB" in the last decade. They want both. Bill would also like both but he had to choose and decided Mac was either better or would learn more from playing in games. If he somehow had peak Cam Newton he would have gone with Cam and likely been pretty successful.

NE had a bad season because the team as whole was pretty weak and they had a much stronger division than they have had in a while. Certainly Brady could have gotten more out of it than Cam but that is more due to Brady being the GOAT as opposed to play style. This year they got a lot of covid opt outs back on defense and revamped up the receiving core.

Shanahan hoping Lance will learn from a year not playing isn't Shanahan thinking Jimmy is better or that Lance isn't ready to come in if Jimmy gets hurt. It is just were Shanahan thinks he will learn more. I still have no idea what your Jimmy wins stat is meant to mean or how it makes anyone look stupid. It seems pretty irrelevant.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950592#Comment_117950592

Pointless continuing this as you clearly are making your mind up on things I've never said and attributing them to me.

And we aren't fat off in our thoughts but you seem to think we are.

I asked him the other poster for stats on when Jimmy played to when he didn't. He just said things were better when he was there than when two backups were there but made it sound like it meant nothing.

I think when you look at Shanahan's full record with the 49ers and spilt it into games where Jimmy did and didn't play there's a massive difference.

What would you attribute that to?

26-9 with Jimmy, 6-24 without Jimmy.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950632#Comment_117950632

I would attribute that to Beathard, Mullins and Hoyer being really bad at QB (at an NFL level). It doesn't mean much to me and I am not sure it should. No one is looking at those 3 to start anywhere and successful teams will likely revert to losing if they have to start any of them.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950731#Comment_117950731

But both of you are pretty much putting Jimmy in that category of QB with what you've been saying.

dh1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949926#Comment_117949926

The reason for it been the worst season in new england under billcor mcdaniels was more to do with the fact it was the first season without tom brady. Apart from cassels who still had the best offense the patriots had ever assembled in tow. Put Jimmy in last year and the result would have been the same whether they were passing, running or eating the football.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952116#Comment_117952116

I disagree. Newton threw more picks than TDs, a shocking 8 TD passes over an entire season. That's not on anybody else but him.

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927058#Comment_117927058

8-8 and after week 2 I was 17 -15 so after three weeks I’m 25 - 23 which is rubbish when compared to previous years.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950966#Comment_117950966

No Jimmy is competent at an Nfl level and I would rate him as a high end back up. I guess I should have had compared to a lot of nfl starters for a lot of the criticism.

Compared to the back ups they have had he is very good but that is not the standard.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950219#Comment_117950219

This is the key really - 'Jimmy is struggling to lead the team to wins when it is put on his back and is not safe enough to be a game manager.'

At this point in the season despite having Shanahan scheming guys open Jimmy has made only 7 throws that went more that 15 air yards (total - counting those that were incomplete or intercepted) while at the same time he has the 4th highest number of turnover worthy plays - behind only Lawrence, Lamar, and Winston, who all offer much more in other facets of QB play than Jimmy.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950966#Comment_117950966

I thought you claimed you didn't heavily rely on 'QB winz' and now you're repeatedly using them to gloat about a point I acknowledged - very strange.

No where have I put Jimmy in that category - I'd put him down as a decent QB who when on form is good, better than several guys starting games in the league. He is right in that QB purgatory zone, where you could win a SB if everything else lines up perfectly but who struggles to put the team on his back when it is needed against elite teams and in most seasons will not perform close to the cost of his contract.

I see you've once again ignored me pointing out your hypocrisy on calling for Mac Jones to start during preseason and now claiming that I'm impatient for saying I want to see more of Lance. I doubt you'll ever explain how your opinion was less impatient than mine but I'll pose you a question instead - would you be happier currently if the Patriots had decided to instead trade/sign Jimmy and his $27m cap hit this season and have Jones sit on the bench getting basically no snaps, rather than Jones having his current opportunities to start?

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117956132#Comment_117956132

I did explain the Mac Jones thing.

As for Lance you are where you are right now whether that's Shanahan wanting to sit him for the year or half a season or else that he doesn't think he's up to it and that Jimmy is a better option.

There is no way for you to prove that Shanahan is wrong. You don't have any data from Pro football to even surmise that Lance is a better option right now.

It sounded awfully like you were saying that Jimmy wasn't fit to be a starter and that's why I responded. His win/loss record is pretty impressive. I'm not calling him a world beater by any stretch but I think he gets a lot of undeserved criticism too. It's possible that if people shut up and let him do his thing for a while that with a bit if confidence he could start improving. I'll never forget those two games he played for us when Brady was suspended. He has that in his locker, you just need to get that out if him.

I wouldn't want him back in New England at that price. We drafted a pocket passer and that's what I want to see on the field. If he doesn't work out it didn't cost us that much and we can go draft another one and keep the cost down.

I like that we brought back Hoyer to back up Jones, he'll get lots of good advice from him.

Paleface

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928279#Comment_117928279

10 - 6 for the week brings me to 29 - 19 overall.

Igotadose

Ah...ahhh... a lead? The Jets? Leading someone?

Can't be.

Igotadose

One in a row!