Michael D Higgins insists he is President of Ireland, refuses to commemorate partition

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992603#Comment_117992603

Hey, of course individual people can aspire to a united Ireland, just like individuals can refuse to have an abortion. However, the official position of the State is that abortion is allowed and that partition is fine.

To be clear, Francie, and no more nonsense on this. We voted to amend our constitutional claim on the North. The future of the North has nothing to do with us, except that if they (and only they) did decide to want to join us, we would then vote on whether we also agreed. So we never voted to accept the majority decision in the north. What we voted for was to accept partition.

GM228

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992502#Comment_117992502

I would think it is more accurate to say that rather than voting to "accept partition" we voted for acceptance of the various mechanisms required to bring about an end to the troubles, the Constitutional changes was just one element of what was required to accept the overall provisions of the GFA.

We did not vote to accept partition per se, rather we voted to accept the GFA (and all it entails) and end the troubles.

On a side note, whilst there is no longer any "constitutional" claim for NI to be a territory of the state, the GFA did also acknowledge that the majority of the people on this island still wanted a legitimate united Ireland, so whilst arguing we accepted partition, you must also acknowledge that we (the majority on the island) also want reunification (as did a substantial amount of people in NI), on that point and taking that into account I do wonder if such a referendum were conducted today without sitting on nearly 30 years of troubles would Articles 2 and 3 changes have been voted for?

votecounts

https://twitter.com/_FeachNews/status/1446436018870276097

Sums up FF FG to me.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992611#Comment_117992611

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992575#Comment_117992575

Furze...

If you voted in the Presidential election you were consulted as the majority of the people said Michael D be president...

He made the decision on behalf of the people of Ireland which i happen to agree with.... Our politicians (all of them) decided to go against his judgement... I personally think it has done tremengous damage to the office of President and will damage the office....

Blanch...

You don't know what your talking about... you shift with what happening... i was told it was to mark the division of Ireland...

The religious congegrations have lost the little bit of credibility they had left...

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992672#Comment_117992672

"It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland,"

That phrase does not call for a united territory, just a united people. All the people who share the territory of the island can be united in harmony and friendship, but live in two separate political jurisdictions.

GM228

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992759#Comment_117992759

Perhaps you should read it in conjunction with the GFA and UK law which acknowledged the governments would accept a sovereign united Ireland if the people so wished, UK legislation also accepts that the North would no longer be part of the UK if that happened, that is reunification, not simply united people.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992654#Comment_117992654

We DID NOT vote to accept partition blanch. Can you show anywhere this was asked? No, you can't. You have to make assumptions to arrive at your view - which is to enshrine partition in our constitution. It never was.

Pathetic again.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992817#Comment_117992817

Our constitution used to say "The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas."

That is gone, simple as.

Now it says "It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island."

We have accepted partition, unless and until the people of the North say otherwise. We have stepped away from our territorial claim, and said to the North, if you want to stay part of the UK forever, that is fine with us. Yes, we wish and aspire and hope to change that, but we still have accepted it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992759#Comment_117992759

Ah here we go again, willfully ignoring the rest of the sentence that addresses the physical uniting of the 'territory'. Pathetic attempt again blanch.

...  recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament[a] that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992834#Comment_117992834

Again...we have accepted the will of the majority in the north to maintain partition. That is NOT an acceptance of partition.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992849#Comment_117992849

We have accepted partition, whether or not the North accepts or rejects partition is up to them, not to us. We haven't even agreed to taking them in, if they ever do reject partition, as that requires another referendum down here.

Our Constitution is about us, about what we can do, and we have accepted that this island is currently partitioned and will remain partitioned until somebody else decides differently. That in essence, means that we have accepted partition.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992874#Comment_117992874

We never denied the reality of partition.

NOWHERE do we accept it.

You are stretching to make us constitutionally partitionist...quite simply, that is an outrageous lie.

Tony EH

We have accepted partition

We have "accepted" that partition merely exists for the time being. Not that it's "fine" or any other guff you want to try and pass off. The provision is still there for a united Ireland should a referendum be held that produces that outcome.

Stop talking bollocks. You aren't the remotest bit convincing.

Not that you ever were.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992759#Comment_117992759

I dont think it makes a bit difference what anyone says... Boris wants out of NI.. The US are in the middle of GFA so United Ireland inevitable...

So it likely be a nation sooner than we think... harmony and friendship may take a few weeks longer....

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992896#Comment_117992896

Oh the provision is there for a united Ireland, but it is outside our control. We are reliant on a British SOS to start the provision, we are reliant on the people in the North to clearly show that they want one. None of that is happening anytime soon, none of that is within our power so like it or not, we have accepted partition and left it to others to decide the fate of the nation.

The difference is that in our previous constitution, we didn't accept partition - we clearly rejected it.

GM228

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992982#Comment_117992982

The SOS has full discretion to call for a referendum if they decide to at any time (subject to there been none within the previous 7 years) even if there is no indication from the people of NI, the reality is they most likely won't, but, they could.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992545#Comment_117992545

I don't its that important to many people. So they don't have strong feeling either way. Its irrelevant to them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992575#Comment_117992575

Many people have a problem with religion full stop. They don't want anything to do with religion.

I'm unclear how its reconciliation. if you are starting from a clean sheet and forward looking then ok.

But this isn't forward looking, its backward looking.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992982#Comment_117992982

This is nothing more than a flaky interpretation.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993271#Comment_117993271

Its like assuming people not opting out is the same as them opting in.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992982#Comment_117992982

No one's mentioning anything about "control".

However, the "acceptance" is only that partition exists for the time being. But there's nothing "fine" about it or any other shite your trying to sell.

GM228

I have often wondered if the 1998 GFA referendum was conducted today without sitting on nearly 30 years of the troubles would the Articles 2 and 3 changes have been accepted?

When I voted in 1998 the troubles was forefront on my mind, not any sort of acceptance (as some have put it) of partition, in fact reunification probably also came to mind long before partition, certainly not any form of acceptance of partition though in the sense being portrayed.

noelfirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991340#Comment_117991340

I think this post really has hit the nail on the head. This entire episode has just been an opportunity for Unionism to make hay while the sun shines, meanwhile part of the establishment in Ireland wrings its hands and considers how self-flagellation can be achieved.

The shortest and most direct way to deal with it would have been to just come out and say that the head of state has made his decision, the issue is closed and it's not open for further discourse. Instead we get unchallenged foghorn polemics from Donaldson and co, Bruton questioning the constitutional standing of the President and a piss poor kow towing by the government. Can anybody really tell me it wouldn't have become a major diplomatic incident if the shoe had been on the other foot and commentators had been lobbing verbal grenades at the Queen?

I think the level of support among surveyed people for Michael D's original decision might be less about an in depth view on the merits of the commeration service and more a reaction to the incessant abrasive hooting that seems to eminate from certain sections of the political establishment in the north, coupled with the usual outcome where the political establishment in the south goes out of its way to condone and facilitate their obnoxious behaviour.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992575#Comment_117992575

You can exist in a democracy without religion. Hasn't religion caused most of the problems to begin with?

Why our president should go to a fairies and unicorns ceremony to placate a bigoted minority within unionism is beyond me. Unless he went wearing a black armband and spoke on how disastrous partition is.

Top man Michael D..

PeaSea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982797#Comment_117982797

I can think of nothing worse than living in a state where the DUP have a majority and there are no balance checks from Ireland or GB. History tells us this does not end well. It's a No from me.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993762#Comment_117993762

Well, the DUP don't have a majority in Northern Ireland, and never have, so I don't think that you have any worries in that regard.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993356#Comment_117993356

There you go, that wasn't so difficult. Even if you want to maintain the hope that it might change sometime in the far-distant future, you have to concede that we have accepted partition exists, and that changing that is for someone else.

PeaSea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993766#Comment_117993766

Is Paul Givan not First Minister ? Was Arlene Foster not First minister ? Are / were they not DUP leaders ?

A DUP head of an independent N. Ireland is a truly frightening thought.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993766#Comment_117993766

They seem to have a de-facto majority at the moment, because like FG and FF, the UUP wouldn't stand up to them.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993258#Comment_117993258

Thought it may seem i have strong feelings abott NI i do not... I have strong feelings on our President being undermined by what has happened... Not thjat i am a big fan but he is head of the State...

I actually the curches has made fools of themselves on this one... i wonder did they do a solo run or were they prompted... i cannot figure why anyone thought it good idea except a few that may have an agenda...

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994071#Comment_117994071

Its old church thinking. Ingrate themselves into everything to stay relevant.

They need to reinvent themselves as a ethos for modern living. But they can't as they are too rooted in the past.

So instead of embracing the future, they are clinging to the past. Just alienates more people.