Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
Private profiles - please note that profiles marked as private will soon be public. This will facilitate moderation so mods can view users' warning histories. All of your posts across the site will appear on your profile page (including PI, RI). Groups posts will remain private except to users who have access to the same Groups as you. Thread here
Some important site news, please read here. Thanks!

.22 pistol audits

  • 15-09-2021 7:28pm
    #1
    Posts: 178 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭ System


    This discussion was created from comments split from: .22lr revolvers.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ smmember20


    Ah I believe there is very blue water between the legislation on CF rifle mags> 10 rounds and the 5 shot .22 issue. The SI clearly prohibits the possession of same, there is not ambiguity, possession is unlawful and subject to automatic revoking of your certificate and a fine up to 5K from recollection.

    I believe the legislation for the .22 pistols is also clear, "modified prior to use", as we all know general pistol mags are not 5 shot and sold as 10 shot, imported as 10 shot but modified prior to use as we all should.

    Now as has been reported the current attitude of AGS is if you are in possession of a 10 shot mag you are getting your pistol and in some cases all firearms seized. Again I head of one individual being "forced" to sign over their Ruger MKII for destruction because they had not had their mags restricted.

    So again it is back to the man in the WIG and until such time as someone has the balls (and money) to stand up to the crap, individuals will continue to be targeted and have firearms seized in my view unlawfully.

    It should be broadcast far and wide that AGS are targeting .22 pistol owners and are examining magazines to ensure they are restricted to 5 shot. The FO's in some locations are not happy as they see it a total waste of their time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    I certainly can confirm now that this is happening in the areas you mentioned.

    FUNI had an approach by a concerned pistol owner that he got a call from his local station that they want to do an audit on his pistol. Go ahead,and let them,but record and film the audit as you can in the privacy of your 4 walls,and don't provide any assistance in providing ammo or information in this inspection,and also ask what qualifications do they have from the AGS to inspect firearms.IE are they Garda tech breach? Are they qualified to handle firearms by AGS? If they have zero knowledge of firearms,well then,you might as well be asking an accountant to perform brain surgery.Also, have a copy of the act to hand to show that this is what they are dealing with and nothing more. Asking about extra mags etc...answer "No comment!" IOW stand up and show and tell this is not going to go well and that you are sympathetic to their orders, but that you are not cooperating or allowing what is required. Nip this in the bud by showing some resistance.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭ BSA International


    Are you for real?


    Worst advice I've ever seen on this forum. If you've nothing to hide what's the problem? They are making an appointment and not turning up unannounced.



  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ smmember20


    Certainly not unreasonable to cooperate with the Gardai if they are making an inspection, compliance with the legislation is confirmed on every firearms application and as such a reasonable approach by AGS is all that is required, a FO making an appointment to come and inspect firearms and compliance with the legislation is fine however the reports I have heard from the Balbriggan district was the the FO was turning up at any time of the day or night unannounced and actually carrying out searches of bags etc in the persons room, all be it asking permission "is that your range bag? Yes, Can I look in it. Unfortunately FO had such success using these tactics that he managed to highlight what would appear to the Super with no real knowledge of sporting firearms a real crime wave!

    If it is that case and I have certainly can confirm this that FO's are calling license holders and making appointments to see their pistol magazines, in one case I know for sure that the FO indicated embarrassment with such a ridiculous task but he has been instructed to carry it out.

    Finally I would caution against being uncooperative as long as it is reasonable. The reason I say this is that it would not be difficult for an inspecting Garda to cite suspicion of unlawful activity and get a search warrant and then the **it storm follows: I can confirm I know of one case where it happened already.

    So my advice: get your house in order:

    1) Gun Safe Bolted to the wall

    2) Ammunition stored away from the firearms in a locked box (any locked box)

    3) .22 Pistol holders magazines restricted to five shot.

    4) Ensure that you do not have excess of your ammunition allowance.

    With all this in place why worry and why cause grief to a FO who probably does not want to be there and has been instructed to carry out the bull **it of checking magazines for 5 shot restriction.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    🙄

    The whole "if you have nothing to hide" argument is trash, and has long been pegged as a logical fallacy.


    The problem here is, again, creep.

    First it is just x, then it is just y, then by the end you are at z.

    Slow progression of more crap, and certainly I'm not aware of any legislation that allows these sort of "audits" as they are being termed.


    If I am contacted by my FO the first steps out from me will be:

    1- Why is this being done? Why is it happening now?

    2- What is the legislation supporting this intrusion(which is what it is, the home is inviolable besides warrants and the like, so what is the legal basis being used here)?

    3- Who will be doing the audit? Regular guards don't know squat about firearms(nor do many FOs, Ss or CSs for that matter), let along mag capacity, so quals please.

    4- Finally, after all that, I'll be printing up and sending http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/si/391/made/en/print to the FO and asking, with that legislation in mind, particularly the "firearms which are designed for use with 0.22 inch long rifle rim fire percussion ammunition and use magazines that have been manufactured or modified prior to use so as to accommodate no more than five rounds of ammunition" part, then why is this audit even being talked about, let alone acted upon?

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭ JP22


    Pistol magazine inspections don't currently apply to myself.

    I know how I would do it but, how exactly does the FO or whom-ever check the magazine capacity?

    A visual inspection of a genuine five rounder is easy enough, what about a larger capacity magazine that’s been altered to hold no more than five rounds.



  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    I suspect that is, attempting, to be accomplished by AGS as mentioned in Grizz's post:

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117894374#Comment_117894374


    Mentioned assistance in providing ammo, so my guess is they will ask for 6 rounds of .22, and attempt to load that many.

    Purely guess, but that would seem the simplest solution, at least from AGS point of view, to check.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭ JP22


    That was my thinking also.

    This then leads to / raises the question of experience/training/proficiency/competency of the personnel (GS) in carrying out the inspection.

    I agree totally that if you have nothing to hide and have complied with all rules/regulations, then you have nothing to worry about.



  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ smmember20


    Perfectly legal as virtually all .22 Pistols are supplied with 10 shot, hence the legislation modified prior to use to hold 5 rounds.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ smmember20


    Sounds great, let us all know how you get on in the event of an inspection 😉



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    From Smmember

    However the reports I have heard from the Balbriggan district was the FO was turning up at any time of the day or night unannounced and actually carrying out searches of bags etc in the person room, all be it asking permission "is that your range bag? Yes, Can I look in it. Unfortunately, FO had such success using these tactics that he managed to highlight what would appear to the Super with no real knowledge of sporting firearms a real crime wave!

    If this is the case Id be also have my lawyer present.AND definitely video this entire case. What that officer has done is utterly illegal and well exceeding his authority and mandate in this case. Showing up unannounced at an unreasonable hour for one. Warrantless search of a bag in a private residence with no just or probable cause, outside the mandate of the legislation which was to inspect A magazine,not plural magazines wherever they might be, questionable qualification in firearms handling or knowledge. Christ! any good litigious lawyer will have a field day with this garda misuse of authority.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,758 ✭✭✭ clivej


    So now I cannot have in 'My possession' a 10 round magazine for my pistol that I am in the process of 'Modifying prior to use'. Because if I have I risk the chance of having my pistol taken.

    Taking this to another level then.................. You order some magazines from 'Riflemags Uk' for your pistol. They arrive in the post the same day that the AGS arrive to 'inspect' your pistol magazines that they conform to only holding 5 rounds. But you have just opened the parcel with your new magazine's in, and now it's goodbye to your pistol.



  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    And any other firearms you own.

    Not to mention the legal aspect, court case, legal fees, etc in keeping yourself free.

    And then after all that presuming their fishing expedition doesn't find anything else they could do you for then the fight to get your seized property back.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 348 ✭✭ BillBen


    Just had my mags inspected. Was asked to go to the station. No drama, the FO just looked at them Checked me off of a list and said this was coming from above said thanks and that was it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ smmember20


    I believe in fairness that the legislation actually was written understanding the logistics that were faced, yes indeed you can order, import, purchase and received 10 shot magazines for your pistol, the intention of the legislation is "modify prior to use" in the cases reported in Balbriggan the FO made unannounced visits, and confiscated pistols and magazines if they were not restricted, certainly a lack of understanding of the legislation, so until it happens to someone who actually takes it to the court, it is open season and yes with the track record to date you are likely to have your pistols seized if in possession of a 10 shot magazine, is it right no, but then it took over 900 court cases prior to 2015 to eventually change the behavior of AGS!!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ smmember20


    In fairness the correct approach, the FO in Balbriggan could learn from his colleagues



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Annddd guess who got a call from his local FO to have his mag inspected? More tomorrow!😁

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 758 ✭✭✭ freddieot


    Is there a logic to the timing of the inspections ? I should get a renewal form in the next week or so (3 months from expiry) and I'm wondering if they are maybe linking the inspections to the renewals ?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Soo anyway...

    My local FO pitches up this AM and I show him my adapted 5 round mag, grand, and ask him to include in his report WADI's point as above RE 6 rounds. Poor guy was utterly clueless as to why he has to go about the district inspecting magazines of .22 pistols. I had to give him the back story as to why he is doing such. While telling him the difference between restricted licenses and unrestricted licenses when applied to .22 pistols, and what to look for to see that mags are "rendered incapable of holding more than 5 rounds prior to use"

    IOW this is a farscial situation of having Gardai traipsing about to pistol owners to check their magazine[s] for something they have no briefing about or clue on how to do or look out for,or would know if it is legal or not. Our tax euros at work...🤣🤣

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    No worries there, mine has still 2 years to run, so very doubtful. More what Smmember originally posted . One bad egg tarnishing us all.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    Considering the FO wasn't sure how to tell how the magazine was limited can I ask(in case my FO comes a calling) how did you inform him to check?

    Handing him 6 rounds, or ruler and math, or some other method?

    Or if you're fancy snap caps ;)

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭ Richard308




  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ jb88


    My two cents

    The Gardai arrived unannounced, took all of 30 seconds to see the mags, ticked a box on a list and left.

    Over at a range last week and watched two Gardai walk in and give over firearms to be plugged to an RFD and advised they can be collected as soon as they are altered. (Thats all the detail I will give) so as not to identify anyone.

    It works both ways, fair play to the Gardai in this instance for taking the right stance and helping shooters get up to date with the requirements, something every licence holder should be aware of, but often for various reasons may not be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Just assisting my local law enforcement who actually asked for this info themselves.😎

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Showed him where the pin was halfway on the 10 round mag.😉

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭ JP22


    IOW this is a farscial situation of having Gardai traipsing about to pistol owners to check their magazine[s] for something they have no briefing about or clue on how to do or look out for,or would know if it is legal or not. Our tax euros at work...🤣🤣


    Nothing new there, we have load of people up in the Dail most of whom are NOT qualified for the job/task they are doing.

    This is what got us into this hole in the first place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭ 1874



    "So in my view one can own 10 shot magazines, but they must be modified prior to use, such modification does not need to be permanent, I would equate it to a speed limit on a motor way, I am an owner of a car that will so speeds of up to 210km/Hour. I am on a motorway that has a limit of 120km/hour, if I am travelling in excess of 120 then I am guilty of an offense, I cannot be guilty of an offense for having a car that can exceed the speed limit."

    Can someone highlight the specific legislation related to pistols referred to in the thread generally,

    although my reply was mainly related to the section quoted and highlighted by the above poster, I'm asking so I can locate that specific legislation and section that states a magazine modification need not be permanent, not questioning it, I believe that is the case but would like to have the legislation for that one printed out and the section highlighted as I've been told previously, very specifically that such a modification needs to be permanent, prior to a few months back I'd always taken that to be correct.

    I've found reading other legislation related to firearms and discussing here, that other aspects of the law I have not known correctly myself, while I should have informed myself rather than just assume something I have been told was correct, people can with good intention pass on incorrect info (like the need to be permanently modified).



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    There is no legislation to say it doesn't have to be permanent, it doesn't exist. There is no law that legislates for what is allowed, only what is "not" or is an offence.

    In short SI21/2008 sets out what is restricted and not (summarising here). It was later amended by SI337/2009 which (among other things) set out that an unrestricted 22lr pistol cannot have a magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds. There was some "confusion" among shooting circles and AGS if a magazine could be modified by the user or had to be manufactured that way so SI391/2015 cleared that up by saying regardless of how the magazine is modified so long as it is done prior to use its legal.

    So in essence, and taking all three together, you can only have a mag with a five round limit that must be modified prior to use to be such. Anyone with a mag with a capacity of more than 5 rounds (on an unrestricted license) is guilty of an offence.

    Some are arguing that you could "unblock" the mag while not in use as the SI says its only prior to use. My take on it is why would anyone bother with such a trivial matter. You can only have 5 round mags, can only use 5 round mags, etc. so I see no benefit of unblocking it while not in use, and frankly you're running a gauntlet by walking this line because the argument about possession could arise. IOW you can only legally have a 5 shot mag as anything over it is classed as restricted and without a restricted license you are guilty of an offence. So simply being in possession of a 6+shot mag (whether loaded loaded or not) that is not modified will land you in the crap.

    I know of two guys that fell foul of this with rifles. Using 25 rounds mags even though they only loaded no more than 10 (it was blocked when in use). The mags were not blocked when inspected and while the mags were not loaded, and not in use, they were in the license holders possession so they had their firearms seized and licenses revoked. One is still fighting it, the other never got it back and has been refused similar licenses since.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



Advertisement