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Does anyone give a toss about 9/11?

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  • WWII didn't start with Pearl Harbour because the US Navy was already fighting U-boats in the North Atlantic. Pearl Harbour was inevitable once the hawks on both sides gained the ascendency. For every ship in the navy another was under construction so were already rearming as fast as possible. Within 6 months most of the Pearl Harbour pilots were dead and the irony is that had diplomacy been different it might have been Japan + US against the communists in China and perhaps Russia.






  • That's because we don't do ding-dong of bells for people who have been killed, provided those people are in the wrong part of the world. Most of the time the deaths of countless numbers elsewhere in the world means little more than a 5 minute bit on the evening news, or a short article in the Foreign Affairs section. Now as unfair as we might find this, there is a compelling reason, which is that people tend to value the lives of people they know and are close to more than those that they don't or those who are far away. And don't imagine for a second this is something Americans reserve for foreigners - you've said it yourself 30,000 US veterans left to commit suicide over the past twenty years - that's four times the active service casualties and ten times the 9/11 casualties. I guess you're not alone in being turned off by the topic.

    One thing I will note though, a quick crunch of your casualty numbers suggests 3 million Iraqis dying in the conflict over the past two decades, which is frankly insane and probably something in the region of ten times the actual number. And I will remind you, invariable, it is the opposition forces, not coalition or government ones, which cause the greatest casualties amongst the civilian population.





  • I'm going to start by saying I hate this new reply system, so damn ungainly.

    In any case - this sounds like a problem you might have with the English language more than my substantive points. It's a bit like someone bellowing anti gay slurs and then declaiming 'I'm not a homophobe because I'm not afraid of men' (I'm going to leave aside the etymology of the word for now). I think my point stands fairly clear but I'll condense it below in reply to tdf.





  • My basic point is that I expect the OP was making what I see as the hackneyed argument I frequently see amongst rather vocal anti-American persons. Specifically, their claim of caring and feeling so offended by the death toll arising from US actions around the world, when quite frankly such people are happy enough to see similar atrocities and keep their mouths shut. It's not so much that I disagree with many of the proposals these people raise - namely less US involvement around the world, reining in the 'Empire', being a lot slower to fund - it's just that so much of the ire I see poured out over these acts seems to begin and end with US involvement.

    My go to would be a comparison with China - if one wants to make the case that the US should not be engaged in a Middle-Eastern conflict which is getting so many locals killed, then I think we could reasonably expect that the same people would be even more outraged when a country is in the process of ethnocide, confining a portion of its population to labour/concentration/re-education camps, and profiting in the process. But for some reason, I never see a fraction of that rage directed in such a manner. The only conclusion I can draw from this is people either don't believe in the ongoing atrocities in other regions, or their interest is not so much in opposing atrocities as it is opposing the US. I hope that clarifies things a little bit.





  • You need to contact all the historians because they think the US declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbour and Germany then declared war on the US.



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  • Yeah it's not like Japan randomly decided to attack the US for no reason, their aim at Pearl Harbour was to preemptively cripple the American Navy because they were already anticipating the US inevitably entering the war.





  • As a person own has a cousin that is a fire chief in New York And another cousin that is an Air force veteran and is her ex-husband. I care very much about September the 11th.





  • Yeah i did/do.As other people have said, seeing people jumping to cerltain deaths can have a effect on you.

    Myself, I didn't see it as I was at (construction) work on 45th Street, then locked into the building listening to it on the radio. Having worked in them alot and having been on good terms with a few freight elevator employees etc , I could never get the reaction in Ireland which was , mostly as I could see, they (US) brought it on themselves.

    The Irish girls I knew who worked in pubs down there were completely traumatised by hearing the sounds of bodies hitting the ground.

    My only real memory of seeing 911 is looking down 6th Ave and seeing the throngs walking uptown and of cars/taxis who stopped to give lifts to us across the bridges etc.

    I'm also , slightly, haunted the fact that had the lad running our 3 man job not missed the Monday I would have been there that day.



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  • The USA may be one of the biggest war mongering states in the world and i would not be a fan of their foreign policy since ww2.

    However those people in the towers and other buildings were just normal people going about their day to day lives.

    The people jumping and falling from the towers will always stay with me for life . As they were only some of the people that we could see in their last moments it does not bare thinking about what those inside went through.





  • You, or any of us don’t have to watch anything. Nor are we having anything stuffed down our throats.

    You’re manufacturing your own outrage.

    Why?





  • I find it fascinating given the OP has a clear antipathy towards the USA that the OP uses the phrase ‘9/11’. No doubt the comment was posted on device designed in America and assembled in China.

    It is clear regardless of politics that American influences the world. Even for the OP in ways they take for granted. No doubt the OP has worn American branded clothes, eaten in American franchise restaurants, watched American films and purchased American music.

    Plus no doubt the OP has had relations who went to America to live and work. So it is no surprise that the 11th of September holds resonance for America and by extension the Western World. As much of the Western World has links with America.

    As regards the over memorialising of the 11th of September. As another poster said ‘that is the Americans for ya.’ They love pomp and patriotism at the best of times. At their worst it is going to be no different. You only have to look at the flight 93 Museum and memorial. When America does it they do it big.

    Also you have to remember America are not used to being ‘under attack’. Added to most Americans lack of knowledge of world issues it still/is was a major shock for them. I have yet to see any American delve into why Bin Laden targeted America other than cursory jingoism. Bin Laden stated these reasons back in 1997.


    Yet nearly 25 years on, have Americans taken a wider analytical self reflective view and asked why? Instead of looking inward and confused as to how another could hate ‘freedom’ ? I am not sure.

    To answer the OP’s question any country with links to the USA either historically or culturally has to ‘give a toss’ about the September 11th attacks. Because if it affects America it invariably affects Ireland either directly or indirectly.

    Also given the nature of the OP’s post, I question whether they can remember a time when passengers on a plane had open access to a commercial airline cockpit? Or when security checks at airports were quick and easy?

    If the OP did remember such times, I doubt they would be making such posts.

    Because September 11th has already affected the airline industry immeasurably and it is now unrecognisable in protocol to over 20 years ago. This has affected the world.

    I put the OP’s post down to the ignorance and impetuousness of youth. And I surmise that the OP is a person who has never stood on the observation area of WTC to have a sense of not just the physical magnitude of the event. But the psychological scars it has left America.





  • I think it solidified in me the truth that there are people who literally hate the West, no matter what. That would of course include Ireland. So yeah, give many tosses.

    On a much more trivial note, the look of Manhattans skyline isn't as wow since. The WTC was so unique, so simplistic, and weren't in reality just two large grey rectangles. Throughout the day they would take on a unique look, because they weren't' just solid concrete blocks, but had lots of glass, that would reflect light in different ways per time of day. So even the destruction of the buildings themselves is a regretful loss.






  • So the reaction was to unleash rivers of blood and 20 years later still whinge and whine about being victimised?





  • Exactly. I avoided the memorial stuff 100%. Not out of coldness, it's just not something I want to consume.






  • And have you seen little girls screaming in terror as they ran from a house that had been "droned" and wrecked by thug US soldiers who attacked their country and killed over 1 MILLION of them?

    People jumping to their deaths. A Harrowing sight. Why should I or anyone else shed a tear when their demise was used to kill a million people who had nothing to do with it.?

    Poor little America.





  • Nobody said you should shed a tear. Your logic is strange though. No sympathy for the innocent people who were murdered at the WTC because of subsequent US atrocities that the victims of 9/11 obviously had nothing to do with.

    Nobody whatsoever has suggested that the subsequent US attacks on innocents aren't also horrific.

    I don't understand why it's so unfeasible to separate the two. Also nobody implied "poor little America".





  • One American friend I know said that had the four planes instead been flown solely into military and political targets, there would have been more sympathy for the terrorists.

    Imagine if Bush had not travelled to Sarasota, Florida and stayed in the White House. The first two planes crashed into the White House and Capitol respectively and the next two, the Pentagon and the CIA.

    I can imagine many people would feel much less sympathy for American politicians killed than they would if they were civilians not involved in the affairs of the country.



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  • Damm good point it has to be said, I left NY a week before it happened, I used to walk by the twin towers every morning around 9:15 - 9:20…I watched the second plane tear into the towers as I tried frantically to ring the one person I thought the most of in the whole world who I knew could be under the towers…Phones didn’t work…I cried watching people throw themselves to their deaths from the towers, I cried for me who could so easily have been there, I cried for my best friend who I did not hear from for three days, I cried for humanity because sometimes…correction, a lot of times there seems to be so little of it in humankind.





  • I give / gave a toss... but it’s an event that occurred 20 years ago. i don’t know of anybody killed in 9/11 although my cousin is a lawyer in New Jersey now but based in the NY office then and had clients in both towers... no Skype or Zoom in those days, so a client meeting was in person... because of the communication shîtstorm with cell phones and said technology being in relative infancy he wasn’t able to contact home from the car or his wife able to get him and his wife couldn’t remember if he was due to head towards the towers although she was sure enough if he was ..based on when he left home he’d never have got there before the towers were hit...





  • I'll never forget the day it happened and watching it all on TV when I got home from work.

    Incredible scenes which I'll never forget but to have been there on that very day must have

    been one hell of an experience with so many people losing their lives and so many more

    giving their lives in the attempted rescue of others and others doing whatever they could.

    I've watched many a documentary on the events after 9/11 and it still today upsets me!

    How they picked themselves up afterwards and just got on with life after that event was the real achievement!

    A lot of disturbing memories were buried after 9/11 but they resurface annually I'm sure!





  • I feel sorry for the people that died but come on you have to hand it to the terrorists it was an amazing achievement, To score 3 out of 4 direct hits is some going.





  • You nailed it.

    I would also add that tragic deaths of people closer or perceived as being more "like" one tend to resonate the hardest, just as we will find the death of a friend or relative more upsetting that that of whoever was killed in the latest car crash somewhere else in the country. Countless people die around the world every day, and some of those deaths will resonate more than most. That's normal, not a character flaw. We have more in common culturally and linguistically with those who died on 9/11 than we do with the victims of the Asian tsunami, for example. That doesn't mean one is indifferent to those deaths, of course, just that some hit one's inner gong that bit harder, and for many different reasons. Another factor in 9/11 was that whereas usually we only see the aftermath, even if only shortly after, of tragic events, whereas we watched the 9/11 attacks unfold in real time and for a long time before the event moved from "happening" to "aftermath". A plane crash live, people jumping/falling to their deaths live, two huge skyscrapers collapsing, live. Of course it bloody well resonates with people. Except for the Americaphobes, of course.





  • "Why should I or anyone else shed a tear when their demise was used to kill a million people who had nothing to do with it.?"

    What a bizarre comment. The people who were victims on that day deserve no sympathy because of the actions of the government afterwards? That makes no sense at all.





  • It was a terrible event and very harrowing for the people of New York and the USA in general.

    However, I can't help thinking that it is a case of the chickens coming home to roost/you reap what you sow.

    The USA had it coming from their activities over practically the entire second half of the 20th century. The individuals did not have it coming, it wasn't their fault, although I've no doubt some would have supported American foreign policy.

    Of course their policy got worse since then.



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