Tenant overholding

Comment_below

Hi all,

I've given one of my tenants in a house q notice of termination due to expire end of this month.

They are a single tenant in a 2 bed property and are on HAP.

I'm curious what are the next steps involved if the tenant overholds or stays beyond the notice of termination? They've been given over 7 months formal notice.

Will their overholding affect their HAP with the Council for the next property they move to ?

Some have said it'd be easier and cheaper to change the locks, inform tenant of alternative airbnb accommodation for a week (they have family in the area anyway) Take a video of everything in the house so the tenant can't say anything is missing or damaged and offer date for collection of items.

I would be interested in hearing peoples opinions

And leave a big chunk of money aside to give the tenant when the RTB rule on your illegal eviction.

The unfortunate fact is, if the tenant overholds, you are in for a long drawn out process to recover your property. You will have to raise a dispute with the RTB, then just wait, and wait, and wait for the process to run its course.

JeffKenna

€500 in an envelope to help with moving "costs". Sad state of affairs but the tenant has all the power.

Flinty997

No it won't effect their hap.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848889#Comment_117848889

More like multiples of the deposit.

Flinty997

Just follow the process. Takes forever.

mrslancaster

How do the professional landlords who own blocks of apartments deal with it or does overholding only affect small landlords with one or two properties? Does anyone know what happens in places like germany or austria as they seems to be the model held by many to be the gold standard for the rental market.

Comment_below

There's no way I'm being bullied into giving a tenant money to move out of my property when they've been given proper notice with 7 months notice.

On looking at past RTB cases for a single tenant the highest awarded for unlawful eviction was 750 euro and that was during lockdown before Christmas and it wouldn't have been the tenant overholding.

It's really a case of damage limitations and the rtb adjudicators must consider mitigating factors presented by the landlord for having to perform unlawful eviction. An rtb adjudicator cannot look favourably on a single tenant where they are over holding after 7 months notice of termination, have family in the area who can accommodate them and also was provided with alternative airbnb accommodation for a week.

If a tenant is awarded a few 100 for unlawful eviction, the landlord can appeal the determination and play the game too in not paying and having the tenant wait months/years for payment.

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117849222#Comment_117849222

Absolutely agree in principle that if the tenant has been given proper notice they shouldn't be paid off to leave as that just encourages that type of messing and they'll likely do that to their next landlord as well.

I've read some horror stories on these threads though so that's interesting that the highest awarded recently for unlawful eviction was 750.

If that was a genuine unlawful eviction with no overholding, and unrelated to petty arguments about what method of communication constitutes "proper notice" then that's too low in my view and would seriously contradict the dominant view on this forum that the RTB is massively biased against landlords.

I think most landlords would probably advise playing by the rules, and many will tell you their own horror story of bad tenants getting away with overholding etc.

Comment_below

Yes, I think the high awards go to an entire family that is evicted with stress caused to children etc with no proper notice, and rightly so in my opinion! Disruption of innocent children is a major no no whatever about their parents !!

I think you'll always hear the stories from a friend of a friends next door neighbour that has exaggerated the claims. When I've looked at the rtb cases breakdown of damages the high payouts are for alternative accommodation costs (for families this would be high) and then max of 750 was awarded for stress caused for this family with children being interrupted with school etc. This family weren't overholding.

With a single tenant that is overholding and with alternative accommodation options, the rtb adjudicator should find it difficult to award anything near to what a family was awarded. The single tenant can then chase the landlord to pay !

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848889#Comment_117848889

Add another zero if chosing that route

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848998#Comment_117848998

Tenants do not have immunity from either not paying their contractual rent or damaging the property in those countries

No country in Europe offers more protection of delinquent tenants than this one

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117849391#Comment_117849391

In the past conversations about the practicalities of the fines was not allowed on boards. You could only have a conversation about the official legal process.

I would not rely on the RTB website as a guide either. Often you can't find your own disputes on it, never mind anyone else's. Hard to trust the media either, but plenty of articles there. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/landlords-fined-for-breach-of-rules-protecting-tenants-1.1288412

Comment_below

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117849642#Comment_117849642

That's a 16 year old article!!

The determination orders of all hearings/tribunals are published online a couple of months after the issuance of the order.

Flinty997

Just the first one I found, googling finds more. I've always thought the RTB toes the govt line when it comes to sharing information.

Comment_below

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117850232#Comment_117850232

Nope

They're all here!

https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-case-outcomes

Flinty997

How about this one?

https://www.rtb.ie/documents/TR0717-002495/TR0717-002495-DR0517-34062%20Determination%20Order.pdf

or

https://www.rtb.ie/documents/TR0817-002545/TR0817-002545-DR0717-35511%20Determination%20Order.pdf

Comment_below

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117851869#Comment_117851869

It doesn't say or breakdown the the damages, the damages could relate entirely or mostly of alternative accommodation

Flinty997

My point is I don't find the RTB data reliable. (there seems to no fines re: evictions post 2018 in there data, but yet media reports of fines). I suspect the data is incomplete. I do know people who say they have been fined for various things. But I couldn't find them. In fact searching seems very hit and miss, even for records I know are there and have a link for. I can't find them using key words. Very weird.

But even in that data that is there. There exist high awards, fines. How likely that is, I have no idea.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117853372#Comment_117853372

People get their names taken off it too.

Say a tenant took a landlord for a few thousand and the next landlord looked up the tenants name.

Well they dont want that coming up, so they get it removed.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117853496#Comment_117853496

I didn’t think that you could request for your name to be removed .. but if that is the case it makes it even more pointless.

About 10 years ago I got stung by a tenant … I got caught out like many with the celtic tiger madness and ended up having to rent out a house when I moved to a more suitable property for my family.

I tried to do everything right and used a letting agency to manage the tenancy which cost about 10% of the rental price. They rented it out to a single mother with two kids - everything seemed fine - they ‘vetted’ the tenant and had actually let a property to her before apparently.

About 2 weeks in to the tenancy I get a call from my old neighbours who asked if I was aware of who had actually moved in to the property - turns out the ‘single’ mother’s partner was released from the ‘joy just after she rented the place - hence the need for a bigger place. This lad had a notorious record and made a living in the import and distribution business (but just not the legal kind) … this was only the tip of the iceberg - anti-social behaviour, guards raids and constant complaints from neighbours including death threats etc.

Rent was never paid - and I went though the process of a notice to quit …. All done properly and by the book.

Day came for them to move out and when I went over there was no sign of anyone moving anywhere. The partner arrived over with a van load of his mates and requested €10k in cash to facilitate the move - it would pay for a ‘mobile home’ that they could move in to.

Over the next few weeks this moving fee went to €5k …. I was powerless …. Nothing I could do.

I was engaging my solicitor to progress the eviction when I got a call from my neighbour to say they moved in the dead of night … turns out there was heat from the guards which he needed to disappear from.

So after 5 months I got - zero in rent and it took about €8k to repair the damage done to the house (it was like wild animals had lived in it). I lodged a case with the RTB and they couldn’t be contacted so it went nowhere.

About a year later I get a phone call out of the blue from your man looking for his deposit back .. thankfully I had moved a few time so he didn’t know where to find me.

I sold the house and would never rent again

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117856714#Comment_117856714

Thanks for sharing.

Not the narrative that Threshold, Peter McVerry Trust or the Irish Times like to talk about, but unfortunately this is not an isolated case.

Official Ireland is so busy protecting the tenants, they have ignored the legitimate issues of landlords. No wonder they continue to bail out of the market.

The saddest part of this is that decent tenants (and the state through HAP) are paying for the rogues to play the system through higher rents.

Overholding is just another example. Adequate legislation to provide for reasonable notice periods (and more than reasonable notice) can be ignored by tenants with no consequence. Its even encouraged. Just one more reason to avoid the private rental sector in Ireland.

When the local authorities who pay the HAP advise tenants to stay where they are regardless of the notice to quit date and they’ll keep paying the HAP; you know the system is fucked.

Local authorities try and make out that they’re doing the landlord a favour by continuing to pay them when all the landlord wants is their property back in their control. I’ve got my property back in my control now and not a hope will I be renting it again.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117856714#Comment_117856714

What a horror story.

Becoming all too common.

There is a cohort who can basically live for free in rented accommodation.

When their 2 or 3 years in one place are up, they simply move on to the next property and repeat.

Never any punishment.

And then you have threshold and the councils advising people to overhold when their notice period is up as well.

And you can indeed get your name taken off the RTB.

whippet

But what it proves is that in nearly all cases it is impossible for a landlord to recoup and sort of arrears / compensation from a tenant. So you can have any sort of legislation in place but unless there is actual enforcement powers it is useless.

I would love to see a mechanism whereby revenue or social welfare can garnish incomes to repay either landlords or tenants who have been stiffed … but I’d imagine is would be impossible to achieve as our political system is totally ham strung by virtue signalling and constant weak coalitions who can’t make a decision without having to pander to the whims of government partners who are fringe political parties at best. think of the greens - always in the single digits in the polls yet any government decision needs to be ok’ed by them

So - as a society we need to decide who is going to provide rented accommodation … and who will protect the assets of those who do

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857337#Comment_117857337

Its very rare to see horror stories about the loss and damage to landlords reported in the press because there's an attitude in this country that all landlords are evil greedy parasites. No surprise really as that's what they teach in our education system.

Tenants and landlords have an agreement/lease whatever name its called, its a contract between the two parties but only the landlord is made to abide to the terms. Tenants can break the contract to the detriment of the landlord with the blessing of the state. Is that even legal?

JimmyVik

I was helping my cousin fill out a mortgage application and scan what seemed like endless documents that the bank wanted.

Baically thew back wanted to know not only what my cousin and her partner had for breakfast the past few years, but also what their kids had for breakfast too.

Every transaction they have done in the last 6 months was in there and had to be explained and proof provided.

Now they are only looking for a loan of €100k as they already have a house paid off and they have to go through that.

Compare that to a landlord handing over a €400k house to someone and only allowed to take a months deposit and not allowed to discriminate on all sorts of grounds. Also not allowed any security against the property.

I can see why landlords are bailing out.

whippet

The amount of arrears owed to DCC for social housing is also eye watering …. It’s almost a cultural thing in Ireland that rent seems to be something that can be viewed as optional - even when the rent is linked to actual income in the form of social housing.

Mortgage interest rates are artificially high due to how long and almost impossible it is to repossess a property - even if a mortgage has been in arrears for decades.

So this is where the government must step in an either become the provider of accommodation directly and let the private rental sector operate outside of the guise of bleeding hearts. If you can afford private rental - be housed by the state and then your social welfare / tax credits can be adjusted to pay the pro-rata / nominal rent - no problem with arrears or people dodging rent.

then in the private sector if we enforced determination orders in favour of the tenant or landlord with actual teeth (garnishing wages / social welfare/ tax credits)

Comment_below

Whatever about rent arrears and attaching a payment order to individuals to repay landlords (as Revenue themselves successfully do), where a tenant is given the appropriate notice and then overholds, the tenant should have legitimate reason such as they were in coma for the last 6 months therefore couldn't search for accommodation, otherwise a landlord should be entitled to changes locks giving the tenant 1 week to vacate before locks are changed.

.42.

You don’t need to do anything currently.

Your tenant has been given adequate notice so expect them to move out on that date.

Is there a deposit involved?

Comment_below

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858516#Comment_117858516

Yes I know, however I'm preparing for the worst, as this tenant appears to be reluctant to engage. I had to try 3 times to carry out an inspection of the property , all with over 2 days notice and given the tenant a week to pick any date/time in a week to pick for the inspection. I only got a reply when I Cc'd the Council in the email. Their excuse was then that someone else was opening their emails somehow! They then selected a date at the very last time period given, stating they work 7 days a week all day (yet HAP is for people on income under 35k) and talking to neighbours he or his car rarely moves from the house. On inspection date he then demanded he be shown an "active covid vaccination certificate " "as per Covid19 legislation "(whatever active in this context means) otherwise he'll refuse entry into property. I then sent him email chat from RTB that there's no legislation that refers to that , he couldn't argue.

I guess I'm lucky in one way that my partner knows the tenant and their homeplace address yet as I've only been dealing with the tenant and not from the area, they know nothing about me or who my partner is.

I won't be surprised if the tenant suddenly develops Covid19 symptoms on the last day. The onus will be on him to prove he has it though!

There's no deposit involved.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117851467#Comment_117851467

They only go back to 2014. I was trying to find a 2012 case a few minutes ago and it is not available.

redarmyblues

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857337#Comment_117857337

How do you remove your name from the RTB database?

Red Silurian

So obviously the tenant is 100% in the wrong messing they're unlikely to take their case to the RTB

Why do you want them out exactly? Are they messy? Not paying rent? Damaging the premises? Keeping your neighbors up all night? Are you selling the place?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861350#Comment_117861350

Course they will go to the RTB.

Taking the case drags it out another 3~6 months. They won't actually turn up. The LL will do all the paperwork, dot the i's cross the T's.

Interesting to note that its the Landlords who fund the RTB. Not the tenants.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861350#Comment_117861350

the reasons for issuing termination is irrelevant as long as it is done within the onerous confines of the law.

The tenant has nothing to lose by referring to the RTB and dragging it out as regardless of the outcome they won't have any repercussions of not abiding by a determination order.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862185#Comment_117862185

The reason is always relevant in the context of why a landlord would want a tenant out, especially since this particular landlord isn't saying

One repercussion I can think of, for the tenant, is that he's unlikely to get a reference from his landlord for a futureif he's overholding... You'd be surprised how significant that can be in this day and age!

There's also a possibility that the tenant doesn't have a place to go yet so what's he/she to do realistically?

nothing

My neighbours had an eviction notice, on antisocial behaviour grounds, and should have left 4 months ago. The agency guy asked them last month when they were leaving. They said they weren't. It's baffling.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862263#Comment_117862263

Do search on daft or similar and find a place that they can afford. Showing 1,935 Properties to Rent at the moment.

If they can't afford it, (and there no reason to believe they can't)

Comment_below

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862263#Comment_117862263

My reason is a genuine and relevant cause and an affidavit of same has been signed and included in the notice of termination.

The tenants homeplace is 8km away where he can stay if the 7 months notice didn't give him enough notice to find a place. He's a single tenant on hap in a 2 bed property, he's been told to look for house shares as renting an entire property as a hap applicant might be difficult to find.

Oh yeah, I won't be surprised if he takes an rtb case on the last day to drag things out. Well I've done my homework and based on his responses any adjudicator won't look on him favourably in an unlawful eviction. It's a complete joke of a system both HAP and RTB.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860374#Comment_117860374

You contact the RTB and ask them to remove it.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862263#Comment_117862263

If the OP is following the correct legal framework in terminating a tenancy it isn’t relevant. The problem is with the enforcement mechanism in Ireland where everything is stacked in the tenant’s favour.

My advice to the OP is to work with your solicitor in following the process and be prepared for months of disappointment.

Back when I was trying to deal with my tenant I had engaged my solicitor and was preparing for the long expensive drawn out process but due to luck was I spared the additional months and months of pain.

I also considered all the other ‘advise’ and methods from friends and relatives - but ultimately my solicitor told me to ignore them as I would only end up forking out money and getting myself in to more trouble

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862397#Comment_117862397

Again, strange that you don't say the reason

There's 2 ways of going about it that I can see

1 - change the locks and expect to defend yourself against the RTB, there's no obligation to pay for a week in an Airbnb or similar and the tenants deposit can be held against any damages or cleaning etc etc

2 - make a complaint to the RTB if your reason is indeed genuine they will eventually evict the tenant and until the date he goes you are eligible for rent

Either way gives you the same result if your reasoning is indeed genuine. The question is do you want the RTB on your side or the tenants side and can you wait another few months for him to move out, while paying you rent of course?

I'm currently a tenant, working full time, paying my own rent.

I was given notice in May and as yet have not found a single property to move to. In fact, most places I enquire about, I don't even receive replies.

I have no intention of overholding. I will be out when I am due to be. I haven't heard one word from my landlord since I was given notice, because there is no need. I'm still paying my rent, and I'm sure they expect I will quit when supposed to.

Why don't you wait OP, until the tenant is supposed to leave, before you start worrying? Or making up scenarios in your head?

Maybe, like me, he is just finding it difficult to find anywhere else.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862693#Comment_117862693

The RTB aren't all that good for tenants either

We challenged a rental increase once as we felt the landlord hadn't properly shown examples of where rent is similar in their notice (pre-RPZ rules) and the RTB found in favour of our landlord, not only that but we were also ordered to backpay the increase

Cuddlesworth

https://www.rtb.ie/documents/TR0817-002545/TR0817-002545-DR0717-35511%20Determination%20Order.pdf

7k, like others have said the RTB site and search tool is beyond useless. You cannot trust what it returns. It really depends on the circumstances, but it might not be cost prohibitive to evict without a RTB order.

Also, technically the tenant has the right to break right back into the property and there is nothing you can do about that. Its worth thinking about how that situation would just escalate when your the one with assets and money and they are not.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862883#Comment_117862883

Also, technically the tenant has the right to break right back into the property and there is nothing you can do about that. Its worth thinking about how that situation would just escalate when your the one with assets and money and they are not.

Good point worth noting

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862776#Comment_117862776

I’d accept that - however - you can be sure that the enforcement of a determination order from the RTB is much easier as a tenant than a landlord.

It’s a flawed system that does not serve the purpose that it should.

Comment_below

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117863122#Comment_117863122

This is why I take comments from Boards.ie with a pinch of salt.

It is a criminal offence for a tenant to break into any property including a property that the landlord changed the locks. This is according to a criminal defence solicitor and a Garda!

What a ridiculous comment !

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862153#Comment_117862153

Would you genuinely propose tenants co-fund the RTB? Genuinely now, at a time of record high rents is that something that you think would be desirable?

Leaving aside whether that's a good or fair idea, in practical terms we all know that the same tenants that cause hassle and take up the RTBs time would be the ones who would refuse to pay and get away with it.

Similarly, generally the worst landlords are the ones who don't register with the RTB.

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858643#Comment_117858643

Do they not still use the city west hotel for people with nowhere to self isolate