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Tenant overholding

  • 05-09-2021 9:38am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭ Comment_below
    Registered User


    Hi all,


    I've given one of my tenants in a house q notice of termination due to expire end of this month.


    They are a single tenant in a 2 bed property and are on HAP.


    I'm curious what are the next steps involved if the tenant overholds or stays beyond the notice of termination? They've been given over 7 months formal notice.

    Will their overholding affect their HAP with the Council for the next property they move to ?

    Some have said it'd be easier and cheaper to change the locks, inform tenant of alternative airbnb accommodation for a week (they have family in the area anyway) Take a video of everything in the house so the tenant can't say anything is missing or damaged and offer date for collection of items.


    I would be interested in hearing peoples opinions



«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,240 ✭✭✭ JeffKenna
    Registered User


    €500 in an envelope to help with moving "costs". Sad state of affairs but the tenant has all the power.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,230 ✭✭✭ Flinty997
    Registered User


    No it won't effect their hap.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,230 ✭✭✭ Flinty997
    Registered User




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,230 ✭✭✭ Flinty997
    Registered User


    Just follow the process. Takes forever.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭ mrslancaster
    Registered User


    How do the professional landlords who own blocks of apartments deal with it or does overholding only affect small landlords with one or two properties? Does anyone know what happens in places like germany or austria as they seems to be the model held by many to be the gold standard for the rental market.



  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭ Comment_below
    Registered User


    There's no way I'm being bullied into giving a tenant money to move out of my property when they've been given proper notice with 7 months notice.

    On looking at past RTB cases for a single tenant the highest awarded for unlawful eviction was 750 euro and that was during lockdown before Christmas and it wouldn't have been the tenant overholding.


    It's really a case of damage limitations and the rtb adjudicators must consider mitigating factors presented by the landlord for having to perform unlawful eviction. An rtb adjudicator cannot look favourably on a single tenant where they are over holding after 7 months notice of termination, have family in the area who can accommodate them and also was provided with alternative airbnb accommodation for a week.

    If a tenant is awarded a few 100 for unlawful eviction, the landlord can appeal the determination and play the game too in not paying and having the tenant wait months/years for payment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭ Jmc25
    Registered User


    Absolutely agree in principle that if the tenant has been given proper notice they shouldn't be paid off to leave as that just encourages that type of messing and they'll likely do that to their next landlord as well.

    I've read some horror stories on these threads though so that's interesting that the highest awarded recently for unlawful eviction was 750.

    If that was a genuine unlawful eviction with no overholding, and unrelated to petty arguments about what method of communication constitutes "proper notice" then that's too low in my view and would seriously contradict the dominant view on this forum that the RTB is massively biased against landlords.

    I think most landlords would probably advise playing by the rules, and many will tell you their own horror story of bad tenants getting away with overholding etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭ Comment_below
    Registered User


    Yes, I think the high awards go to an entire family that is evicted with stress caused to children etc with no proper notice, and rightly so in my opinion! Disruption of innocent children is a major no no whatever about their parents !!

    I think you'll always hear the stories from a friend of a friends next door neighbour that has exaggerated the claims. When I've looked at the rtb cases breakdown of damages the high payouts are for alternative accommodation costs (for families this would be high) and then max of 750 was awarded for stress caused for this family with children being interrupted with school etc. This family weren't overholding.

    With a single tenant that is overholding and with alternative accommodation options, the rtb adjudicator should find it difficult to award anything near to what a family was awarded. The single tenant can then chase the landlord to pay !



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,792 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_maxx
    Registered User




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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,230 ✭✭✭ Flinty997
    Registered User



    In the past conversations about the practicalities of the fines was not allowed on boards. You could only have a conversation about the official legal process.

    I would not rely on the RTB website as a guide either. Often you can't find your own disputes on it, never mind anyone else's. Hard to trust the media either, but plenty of articles there. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/landlords-fined-for-breach-of-rules-protecting-tenants-1.1288412



  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭ Comment_below
    Registered User


    That's a 16 year old article!!


    The determination orders of all hearings/tribunals are published online a couple of months after the issuance of the order.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,230 ✭✭✭ Flinty997
    Registered User


    Just the first one I found, googling finds more. I've always thought the RTB toes the govt line when it comes to sharing information.

    Post edited by Flinty997 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭ Comment_below
    Registered User




  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭ Comment_below
    Registered User


    It doesn't say or breakdown the the damages, the damages could relate entirely or mostly of alternative accommodation



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,230 ✭✭✭ Flinty997
    Registered User


    My point is I don't find the RTB data reliable. (there seems to no fines re: evictions post 2018 in there data, but yet media reports of fines). I suspect the data is incomplete. I do know people who say they have been fined for various things. But I couldn't find them. In fact searching seems very hit and miss, even for records I know are there and have a link for. I can't find them using key words. Very weird.

    But even in that data that is there. There exist high awards, fines. How likely that is, I have no idea.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik
    Registered User



    People get their names taken off it too.

    Say a tenant took a landlord for a few thousand and the next landlord looked up the tenants name.

    Well they dont want that coming up, so they get it removed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 899 ✭✭✭ DubCount
    Registered User


    Thanks for sharing.

    Not the narrative that Threshold, Peter McVerry Trust or the Irish Times like to talk about, but unfortunately this is not an isolated case.

    Official Ireland is so busy protecting the tenants, they have ignored the legitimate issues of landlords. No wonder they continue to bail out of the market.

    The saddest part of this is that decent tenants (and the state through HAP) are paying for the rogues to play the system through higher rents.

    Overholding is just another example. Adequate legislation to provide for reasonable notice periods (and more than reasonable notice) can be ignored by tenants with no consequence. Its even encouraged. Just one more reason to avoid the private rental sector in Ireland.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]
    Registered User


    When the local authorities who pay the HAP advise tenants to stay where they are regardless of the notice to quit date and they’ll keep paying the HAP; you know the system is fucked.

    Local authorities try and make out that they’re doing the landlord a favour by continuing to pay them when all the landlord wants is their property back in their control. I’ve got my property back in my control now and not a hope will I be renting it again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik
    Registered User



    What a horror story.

    Becoming all too common.

    There is a cohort who can basically live for free in rented accommodation.

    When their 2 or 3 years in one place are up, they simply move on to the next property and repeat.

    Never any punishment.

    And then you have threshold and the councils advising people to overhold when their notice period is up as well.

    And you can indeed get your name taken off the RTB.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭ whippet
    Registered User


    But what it proves is that in nearly all cases it is impossible for a landlord to recoup and sort of arrears / compensation from a tenant. So you can have any sort of legislation in place but unless there is actual enforcement powers it is useless.

    I would love to see a mechanism whereby revenue or social welfare can garnish incomes to repay either landlords or tenants who have been stiffed … but I’d imagine is would be impossible to achieve as our political system is totally ham strung by virtue signalling and constant weak coalitions who can’t make a decision without having to pander to the whims of government partners who are fringe political parties at best. think of the greens - always in the single digits in the polls yet any government decision needs to be ok’ed by them

    So - as a society we need to decide who is going to provide rented accommodation … and who will protect the assets of those who do



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭ mrslancaster
    Registered User


    Its very rare to see horror stories about the loss and damage to landlords reported in the press because there's an attitude in this country that all landlords are evil greedy parasites. No surprise really as that's what they teach in our education system.

    Tenants and landlords have an agreement/lease whatever name its called, its a contract between the two parties but only the landlord is made to abide to the terms. Tenants can break the contract to the detriment of the landlord with the blessing of the state. Is that even legal?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭ whippet
    Registered User


    The amount of arrears owed to DCC for social housing is also eye watering …. It’s almost a cultural thing in Ireland that rent seems to be something that can be viewed as optional - even when the rent is linked to actual income in the form of social housing.

    Mortgage interest rates are artificially high due to how long and almost impossible it is to repossess a property - even if a mortgage has been in arrears for decades.

    So this is where the government must step in an either become the provider of accommodation directly and let the private rental sector operate outside of the guise of bleeding hearts. If you can afford private rental - be housed by the state and then your social welfare / tax credits can be adjusted to pay the pro-rata / nominal rent - no problem with arrears or people dodging rent.

    then in the private sector if we enforced determination orders in favour of the tenant or landlord with actual teeth (garnishing wages / social welfare/ tax credits)



  • Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭ .42.
    Registered User


    You don’t need to do anything currently.

    Your tenant has been given adequate notice so expect them to move out on that date.

    Is there a deposit involved?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭ Comment_below
    Registered User


    Yes I know, however I'm preparing for the worst, as this tenant appears to be reluctant to engage. I had to try 3 times to carry out an inspection of the property , all with over 2 days notice and given the tenant a week to pick any date/time in a week to pick for the inspection. I only got a reply when I Cc'd the Council in the email. Their excuse was then that someone else was opening their emails somehow! They then selected a date at the very last time period given, stating they work 7 days a week all day (yet HAP is for people on income under 35k) and talking to neighbours he or his car rarely moves from the house. On inspection date he then demanded he be shown an "active covid vaccination certificate " "as per Covid19 legislation "(whatever active in this context means) otherwise he'll refuse entry into property. I then sent him email chat from RTB that there's no legislation that refers to that , he couldn't argue.


    I guess I'm lucky in one way that my partner knows the tenant and their homeplace address yet as I've only been dealing with the tenant and not from the area, they know nothing about me or who my partner is.


    I won't be surprised if the tenant suddenly develops Covid19 symptoms on the last day. The onus will be on him to prove he has it though!


    There's no deposit involved.



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