Coveney claims to have previously been hacked.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845586#Comment_117845586

Wasn't Coveney using one of the latest Apple's?

We are asked to believe, Varadkar, involved in Brexit and one time Taoiseach/Tanaiste and Taoiseach in waiting wasn't a target and wasn't following the same security procedures? He kept his texts or a backup of these texts which could not be found in an FOI request, because he was on holidays, even though he was chirping previously on social media that even though he was on holidays he wasn't really fully on holidays. The FOI officer who is conveniently no longer working for the relevant dept apparently didn't think to call him and ask for the relevant, requested text communications or backup?

While Coveney's story has gone from deleting some messages because of data clogging his phone, to 'wiping' his phone completely* because a previous phone and number was hacked?

*Notsure if COveney has actually said he did full wipes or if that was an excuse made for him here.

SchrodingersCat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845594#Comment_117845594

Well, to be fair, its Róisín Shortall that is making the claim that it not backing up government communications is an offence. The leader of an opposition party will say what they want to the media, but they should show us in the legislation where it is an offence. I agree with her that the important question is when he deleted the messages. If he deleted them after getting the FOI, then that is an offence.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845626#Comment_117845626

The Taoiseach has said it is best practice not to delete. But conveniently 'best practice' was not followed here.

McMurphy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845626#Comment_117845626

lol, shoot the messenger much? She's referring to the actual FOI act.

Under the 2014 FOI Act, records can be requested from relevant bodies – including government departments. 

The records include written or printed materials in any form, including in any electronic device. .

expectationlost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845070#Comment_117845070

without having a backup?

expectationlost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845247#Comment_117845247

everything we discuss here is pure speculation then????

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845626#Comment_117845626

Sure they make it up as they go and Rosin is a member of the club... she just wants to appear to be relevant... circle the wagons....

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845555#Comment_117845555

There is a specific Circular from 2019 I think setting out the requirement to forward any Ministerial communications on 'unofficial' channels (such as text messages or WhatsApp) to their Ministerial email so they are recorded and available for FOI.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844936#Comment_117844936

I don't want to be defending Coveney, as something is definitely off here, but deleting messages isn't an unreasonable or unexpected response to being hacked. It probably isn't official security advice, which raises some questions in itself, but it isn't an unusual response.

There is no info in the public domain as to whether he's using the same phone / number as when he was previously 'hacked' (whatever that means). If he switched Departments in the meantime, it is probably a different physical phone, but probably the same number would have een transferred. That's just speculation on my part, but it isn't hugely relevant as to whether he's using the same phone or a different phone.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845626#Comment_117845626

https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2019/09.pdf

expectationlost

FOI Act 2014 s52.

Where an FOI request has been made in respect of a record, a person who without lawful excuse and with intention to deceive destroys or materially alters a record shall be guilty of an offence

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/act/30/section/52/enacted/en/html#sec52

seem to encourage early deletion

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845973#Comment_117845973

52. Where an FOI request has been made in respect of a record, a person who without lawful excuse and with intention to deceive destroys or materially alters a record shall be guilty of an offence and be liable on summary conviction to a class B fine.

Anyone know what a class B fine is?

maestroamado

https://www.thejournal.ie/micheal-martin-katherine-zappone-5540542-Sep2021/

We have this from MM... Basically saying its nothing to do with me and he is supposed to be the BOSS.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846530#Comment_117846530

Basically I'm the gaffer. A gaffer that does fook all.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846594#Comment_117846594

if he thinks its nothing to do with him he is a fool...

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846623#Comment_117846623

That goes without saying. The buck stops here, unless it involves FG.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846653#Comment_117846653

Are you suggesting we have two Taoiseach in parallel... i didn't think of that but it may be the case....

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845296#Comment_117845296

If I were an Irish minister I would be wiping my phone every couple of weeks at the very least.

But the problem is what benefit is that when spyware that is used by intelligence agencies can send all communications back to the hacker in real time? Its of little benefit deleting something that the hacker already has possession of. If you introduce a second intelligence agency and second hack into the scenario then it might have limited benefit but not really if their software has the capability of retrieving previously deleted messages.

But anyway thats of little consequence because intelligence agencies are only going to hack people who hold a position of interest to them. So when Coveney was Minister for Agriculture agencies would have had no interest whatsoever in his texts between him and the President of the Irish Farmers Association discussing the price of beef. But the minute he becomes Minister of Foreign Affairs thats when he becomes a mark and an agency will start intelligence gathering, its only then that his communications are actually valuable to them.

In any case if he has already been hacked it is stupid to continue on using an iPhone anyway. Ive a mate at board level in a Fortune 100 company in the US and they are banned from using iPhones and Android. They used to be able to use Blackberry but thats gone now as well. All of those systems have been compromised by spyware over the last few years. Instead the whole board runs encrypted phones to communicate with each other with each phone costing over $10k a piece and them all being monitored by a counter surveillance company staffed with ex-CIA cyber security experts. They have to go to those lengths because corporate espionage in the US is a very real thing and the information they're often discussing is extremely valuable in the wrong hands.

So if thats the level big companies in the States are going to prevent phone hacks you'd wonder why similar arrangements are not in place here for key Ministries like Foreign Affairs, Defence, Taoiseach, Finance, etc. Especially against the backdrop of Brexit, there was already allegations of spying going on at the EU Commission last year and the British came out and pointed the finger at the Chinese which sounded like a handy cover story. It could have easily have been both the British as well as the Chinese who were hacking persons of interest in the EU Commission.

SchrodingersCat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117847001#Comment_117847001

Two reasons to delete data on your phone:

1) When the hacker gets into your device, older sensitive information has been purged from the previous wipe, so there is less information that they can compromise.

2) Wiping the phone removes potential hacking tools from the device. It is one of the methods given by Reporters Without Borders to remove the NSO hacking software, for example. https://rsf.org/en/news/rsfs-recommendations-those-who-could-be-spied-pegasus This tool was used to spy on reporters and politicians around the world.

I agree, politicians in higher parts of office, particularly Defense and Foreign affairs, should be using more secure devices. Macaron, Merkle and many other politicians were the targets of phone hacks, so its not an issue isolated to Ireland.

Grab All Association

So if his phone was hacked, did he notify the data protection commission and constituents whose data that was potentially on the device?

TD's get many emails looking for help regarding Passports, medical cards, Disability Allowance appeals etc

SchrodingersCat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845966#Comment_117845966

I completely agree with your post. I don't want to be defending Coveney, as this story is 100% fishy.

Not publicly advertising the "makey-uppey" Special Envoy post before giving it to Katherine Zappone is absurd and stupid. They could have easily advertised it, said that there were no other suitable applicants, and given it to her. Why they did not do this I can only put down to corruption. Secondly, Leos texts attempting to confirm the legality of the outdoor dining is bizzare. How does the Tainiste not know these rules himself?

However, and to get back on topic, deleting data on a phone for security reasons is a reasonable act by a minister. Particularly one involved in Foreign Affairs.

SchrodingersCat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846691#Comment_117846691

Haha! 😁 It could be, that would explain why Micheal Martin keeps referring to Varadkar as Taoiseach https://www.joe.ie/news/micheal-martin-defends-accidentally-calling-leo-varadkar-taoiseach-multiple-times-724861

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117847339#Comment_117847339

I think its reasonable that ministers may have to delete messages etc from their phones. However, there should be protocols in place for that, ensuring backups of data, particularly where such communications relate to ministerial business or appointment of special envoys.

Nonetheless, if Coveney deleted the texts from his phone due to his ministerial position, Zappone who is not a minister should still have them on her phone, and should be able to easily produce them if there's nothing untoward in them.

SchrodingersCat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845972#Comment_117845972

Thanks, I was trying to find this information earlier but couldn't. This does not bode well for Simon:

10. Any communications relating to official government business issued or received through a private email account or other private messaging service must be forwarded from such account or service to an organisation issued email account or service as soon as is practicable. This will ensure that any such communications can be readily accessed by the organisation should the record fall within the scope of a particular FOI request or for other records management purposes. This is consistent with civil servants’ obligations under the National Archives Act.

So if Simon deleted his messages for security reasons, he should have backed them up to the government servers first.

CDarby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117847407#Comment_117847407

My reading of if also, I assume a lot will depend on, whether or not it was just some texts, or all texts he deleted, for example, if he conveniently deleted texts between KZ, LV and himself, but more mundane texts were left in place. But more importantly than that, will they be able to put a timeline on when the texts were deleted.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that it wouldn't be beyond impossible that Simon Coveney could be investigated by the guards at the same as Leo. Unlikely, but technically possible.

I agree about the texts being a bit "strange" from Leo, his seeking clarification on the legality of the merrion event is strange to say the least (considering he's the tanaiste of the country afterall) you would be forgiven for thinking Leo wrote them as if he knew he'd be needing them in the future again.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846691#Comment_117846691

Leo is happy to let Michael Martin be front and centre stage when tough unliked decisions are being made and announced. Meanwhile behind the scenes Leo is pulling all the strings.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117847001#Comment_117847001

What OS do these 10k phones run on and do they have the ability to send receive email?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845269#Comment_117845269

How do you know it was subject to FOI?

You don't know the FOI legislation going by that comment. Maybe more research and less outrage next time.

SchrodingersCat

This might be the “hacking” incident he is referring to?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/foreign-affairs-minister-simon-coveney-targeted-by-online-phishing-scam-39429647.html

Seems more like they spoofed his contact details, and not that they got into his phone. Not sure though.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846691#Comment_117846691

It looks like whatever the outcome we need to have a general election asap as this government have been totally discredited by this and other scandals, the opposition to keep them to account do nothing its left to a committee or public accounts to waffle on about whatever.

MM has beeb seriously discredited as its now clear that he is not up for the job and we now have 2 Taoiseach but we have no-one in charge.... People are copping-on to these clowns.....

McMurphy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848438#Comment_117848438

Because in Simon Coveneys and Leos exchange they were discussing government business. (The relevant act was pasted numerous times already by myself and others FFS) Cmon mark, if you're going to offer them unquestionable defence, at least read up on the fuppin story.