Incoming E10 fuel. Dreams dashed.

flexcon

So like many of you I was hoping for when E10 arrived we would see the return of 98RON at the pumps via the back door of a mix of ethonol and fuel. Well this report puts cold water on that.

looks like 95.7RON with average of 96.2 RON.

currenlty on Bosnia & Herzegovina and they have 98 RON everywhere - even 100 at some stations.

when can this farce end for us.

http://www.eerl.com/Uploads/E10-Final-Report.pdf

Miscreant

Most people don't care about the RON value of their fuel and the majority of cars here will happily run on 93 to 95 from the factory by default with no ill effects.

In my experience, the only drivers concerned with getting 98RON or higher are those with higher performance cars or cars that have been mapped to take advantage of the higher RON value fuels. I have friends who drive tuned JDM cars like 200sx, Integras and Supras who mention this quite often but outside of that cohort, there is never a peep about the RON value of petrol.

There are fuel additives that can be bought to increase the RON value of the fuel if this is really desired in any case.

SEPT 23 1989

Was the there not 102 Ron at some stations in the Uk a few years ago

wotzgoingon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814168#Comment_117814168

You can get high octane fuel in UK and other countries. We had it for a while but the market was so small they just discontinued it here.

flexcon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814129#Comment_117814129

Well def not 93 anyway. 93 isn't sold in Ireland but I get your point. My car requires 98RON, it's turbo and can run safely put not under much load on 95RON.

So 93 would kill the engine.

Makes sense regarding the JDM type cars as they run 98,100 over there. I am surprised there isn't any talk about Ron in that circle of friends, seems odd considering the considerable upsides to 98 on those type of cars.Unless they are very young, (25under) they wouldn't have enjoyed the time we had 99RON with Maxol for a few glorious years.

Those fuel additives are trash, the only real substitute is getting someone in the north to buy some Aviation fuel and bring it down and mix it yourself lol.

flexcon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117816349#Comment_117816349

Yeah I was up north last month and running 3 tanks of Shell power 98 the difference was very noticeable. No hesitation, and the engine just sounded like it was happier.

Dhenalau

The E10 petrol seem to be a very bad deal for the consumer...

 E10 is less efficient than the current E5 blend of fuel, with the problem exacerbated in smaller-engined cars.

“And those with E10 compatible cars will unfortunately find they are getting fewer miles to the gallon as the fuel is less efficient than E5 fuel, due to it containing 5% more ethanol.

Drivers of older, incompatible cars may have to shell out for more expensive fuel, since forecourts will likely only offer E5 as a premium option.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/what-is-e10-fuel-and-how-could-it-affect-you/

flexcon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818061#Comment_117818061

Yeah this is a yes and a no at the same time.

it comes down to the KJ in the fuel. If you have a high boost car that runs optimal on 98RON 100% fuel then you have your winner.

However in order of preference it still looks like this

98RON 100% fuel

98RON 5% Ethanol

98RON 10% Ethanol

95RON 100% fuel

95RON 5% ethanol

The main reason being is a engine is less efficient anyway at 95RON then the 98RON so any losses on fuel consumption by going to a 10% blend is offset by the gains on going to the happier place - 98RON. in theory you are loosing out at 95RON anyway so might as well have a happier engine and still have roughly the same loss.

Years ago when Maxol had their 99.2RON blend(although it averaged 97) the difference in some of the Toyota Glanza, and Nissan pulsars we had were insane. Not just overall peak HP, but fuel consumption. Sure these cars could have been mapped to 95RON but they lost 15% or so power. So even with MAXOL E5 ethanol blend, which has losses - the cars were still happier.

Leonard Hofstadter

When is E10 coming to Ireland? I didn't know there was a planned start date for it here?

They need to keep E5 as many older cars (especially classics) cannot run on E10 for a sustained period of time - ethanol wears out the fuel lines and other rubber bits quicker. But the vast majority of cars should be able to handle it, but as noted above, fuel consumption will be marginally worse (maybe 3-4% more) but since the CO2 content will be 4% lower, the carbon tax should be less, which should make it a little cheaper.

Atlantic Dawn

UK Gov have a site to check compatibility with E10

https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol

flexcon

Does anyone have any inside knowledge now that E10 starts in April? Will we have a choice of E5 in some stations for a while, or a higher octane rated fuel E5?

wotzgoingon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120290414#Comment_120290414

E10 would actually be higher octane rated. People who have custom tuned turbo cars in America run E85 to make more power but it uses up more fuel than premium or regular as they call them.

wotzgoingon

Just to add to the above comment. I posted a video a few months ago of a car guy in Australia who makes YouTube videos and he got his sons car tuned to run on E10 and it made more power on E10 than on more expensive premium fuel as they sell both in Aus.

flexcon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120291423#Comment_120291423

Unfortunately the precedent for that is not kind. Once the rollout of E5 came about back in 2009 or so, the original 95.5 pure unleaded became 93.5 ocatane with 5% ethanol bringing it back to 95.5.

So my fear is we will have the same scenarios, approx 92 octane but 10% ethanol brings it back to the minimum 95.5

This is why Maxol was averaging 99.2RON as they used 95.5RON with 5% Ethanol.

My figures are off the back of my hand so might be out slightly.

munchkin_utd

If there was a demand, and people prepared to pay for it, there'd be the supply of it.

In Germany Aral (BP group) has 102 octane everywhere (and 2400 petrol stations so literally everywhere), Shell has 100, Total and Jet 98 Octane . Its all a premium product but obviously they have enough people prepared to pay for it, whether its for performance or for vintage motors.

Maybe the issue in Ireland is also that the greens made diesels so popular with the motor tax cuts that for a while even regular petrol was becoming a niche market, so for petrol stations wasting pumps and tanks on special versions of petrol would have been madness. In other countries where premium petrol is available, there was never such a massive push by their governments to have everyone driving diesels, and petrols were far more popular in the past 10/ 15 years than in Ireland.

flexcon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296506#Comment_120296506

This is why I am living in hope that they combine both.

E10 regular

E5 97,98 octane Premium, Plus

I am sure some garages will keep E5 in for a while.

wotzgoingon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296765#Comment_120296765

I doubt it all fuel is the same that comes into the country. Also as the post above yours said they will not install a second pump and tank just so people can have E5 especially when they will not do it for premium fuel.

Larbre34

With the amount of new and imported high performance cars evident around the place, especially in Dublin, it would be well worth somebody's time retailing 98 or 100 RON at a couple of sites.

You can see literally dozens of AMGs, M Cars, Porkers, Astons and classic V8s and V12s on any spin around the City. And its great that people are bent on keeping wonderful hand-built petrol engines on the road for a long time.

If I was this guy, I wouldn't be putting any old shyte in the tank.

wotzgoingon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298028#Comment_120298028

You can buy high octane race fuel if you were really worried but it costs way more than standard petrol. You can also buy boosters but you have to be careful as there are some boosters that are snake oil as in do nothing.

ordinaryfella

There will be a public consultation, I'm sure their minds are made up but voicing these fair criticisms cannot hurt.

magicbastarder

'better for the environment' - where is the ethanol coming from?

Sexual Chocolate

" You can see literally dozens of AMGs, M Cars, Porkers, Astons and classic V8s and V12s on any spin around the City. And its great that people are bent on keeping wonderful hand-built petrol engines on the road for a long time "

magicbastarder

it's so heartening to see a growling V12 stuck in traffic on the quays.

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298245#Comment_120298245

No doubt a rain forests is being burnt down to grow sugarcane, so the greens can feel all smug inside.

magicbastarder

any 'green' i know is wise to this charade.

flexcon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297383#Comment_120297383

This is what gives me hope

Quote: This measure will also align the current petrol supply used in Ireland to that of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Well that supply is a mix of E10 and E5 (higher octane). But again, probably terminology is being lost. I am guessing Octane is added in the port?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120299661#Comment_120299661

Better than being stuck on the quays in anything else.

I was in Cork on Monday and a green Holden Maloo 6.2 V8 departed a traffic light up onto the N40 and it was a most glorious sound.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298028#Comment_120298028

We lost 98 RON long before diesel was pushed hard.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296506#Comment_120296506

Last year walking into a pub there was a lovely Porsche parked outside, it was parked with it's bald nearly to the wire tyres on show. For the amount of people who buy those types of car who are actually into driving vs people wanting to look good 95 RON is perfectly fine.

flexcon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120304089#Comment_120304089

Not really, I mean Maxol's E5 had 99.2RON up until tail of of 2014

I even remember back in 2009-2012 many Jap car owners who switched to the the higher RON noticed much improved power, response and efficiency. Even regular Saab 93 will gain 4mpg by using 97RON.

Anyway, as pointed out if there was demand - they would.

Pops_20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120290414#Comment_120290414

I emailed both Circle K and Maxol a few days ago about this, as I have two 90s Japanese cars and I'm concerned about using E10.

Not holding my breath for a reply but will post up if I receive any information.

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120306345#Comment_120306345

Apparently if your engine code ends with 'SE' , then e10 is a no no.

https://andrewsjapanesecars.com/imported-toyota-use-e10-fuel/

mikeecho

Why do people think that Japan has super duper petrol.

They have regular min 89ron, and hi octo, min96 ron

In Ireland we have premium, min 95 ron

Most petrol in Japan is 90ish ron with 1.8% ethanol.

They are not all driving around with 100ron.

flexcon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314272#Comment_120314272

As someone who has a brother currently in Japan, that is not so. I am not sure where you got those figures from but they might be US PON which further confuses the issue. So using US measurements min96ron is just shy of 102RON

98RON in Ireland is 93RON(PON) in US.

But to counter back, 100 and 102 octane is everywhere in Japan. Nearly all turbo, and high revving Jap cars desire 100. With ECU changing the engine timing they can run on as low as 95 to prevent knock, but no less.

So the operating range of a typical 4AGE Toyota engine is 95-102 with 98-100 optimum

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319795#Comment_120319795

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.spglobal.com/platts/PlattsContent/_assets/_files/en/our-methodology/methodology-specifications/japan-domestic-oil-products-methodology.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjD4_mezMf9AhVykFwKHU6_DkwQFnoECC4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0JFvq1CbC7PXOAI6VkW2Pr

click on the link, and it will bring you to a pdf with Japan's fuel info

wotzgoingon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120321297#Comment_120321297

But they do have high octane fuel as well as the cheaper stuff. We don't all we have is e5 and soon to be e10 and used to be 95.

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120321364#Comment_120321364

Yes, but what I'm getting at is they don't have 95.

They only have regular 90 ron and super 96+ron.( Usually 98-100)

In Ireland we have premium 95.

I highly doubt everyone in Japan is running super.

.

There are 3 grades of fuel, regular (90 to 92ron), premium (95) and super (97+)

Europe, well the eu doesn't sell regular.

95 isn't a bad fuel, it's better than what a lot of the world uses.

I know my Ron Mon pon & aki's

flexcon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120322736#Comment_120322736

EDIT - Something aint right somewhere. No way you could run 89RON and not have excessive knock on most engines. I get the the US values but not the Japanese values you quoted.

Lowest I ever seen in Japan is 95. I'll be back, my brain is running wild

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324001#Comment_120324001

That's what I'm saying, they don't have 95

They have 89/90 ron, which is like the American 87aki/pon

And those jap specs were last set in 2002.

Yes they 98+

But as I've said, I don't think everyone there is using super plus

flexcon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324122#Comment_120324122

Please double check my math, I feel like I might be gaslighting myself.

Still cannot wrap my head around Japan having 89RON sold in petrol stations.

In the US the pumps display PON(Pump Octane Number (PON))

So if a fuel in Japan is 89RON, that is equivalent to 81MON(Motor Octane Number) which means the PON is 85.

Yet minimum spec In us is 87PON.

that's insanely low. I guess my next bit of research is to check Toyota engines from some pickup trucks sold in Japan from 90 through to 2002 and see what the advised RON is.

tjhook

I'm really not following the technical details in this thread -

What I do think I understand is that the new e10 fuel provides fewer KM per litre, and perhaps slightly less power. I'm fine with that once there's an equivalent reduction in price. But I'm pretty confident there won't be. We'll be told E10 is equally expensive (or even more so) to produce, or there'll be a coincidental increase in taxation around the same time it is introduced.

Measures like this turn people against what would otherwise be perfectly sensible environmental changes.

flexcon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324939#Comment_120324939

Looks like no price difference for when e10 comes in.

ThreeGreens

"Those fuel additives are trash, the only real substitute is getting someone in the north to buy some Aviation fuel and bring it down and mix it yourself lol."

Why in north? There is no difference between Avgas sold in the UK an the ROI.

If using avgas, be conscious that it contains lead. So if your car has a Cat convertor, it will destroy it.

keithb93

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120301515#Comment_120301515

I saw that same car in west cork recently, I couldn’t figure out what it was until now

Pops_20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120306345#Comment_120306345

I haven't received any response from either yet, and it's been about 10 days.

Some articles in Irish Newspapers were saying how in the UK they have retained premium fuel as E5 but the demand is low, and based on that they think there will be zero demand in Ireland. Also the fact that a separate tank would be required.

However many stations already have two pumps, for example Circle K have Miles and Miles Plus. I assume there is a separate tank for Miles Plus. Could they not change Miles to E10, and keep MilesPlus at E5? I rarely see anyone opting for MilesPlus anyway, so it would make sense for them to offer an E5 option there.

Pops_20

Reply from Circle K:

Dear Customer,

Thank you for your email.

We will not be continuing to offer e5 fuel once all of the transitioning to e10 is completed. We will be following government guidelines in relation to this process.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120355608#Comment_120355608

They're loving it. Less efficiency at same price means they lose less or nothing in the change and they gain from more frequent visits from the punters who buy a coffee and a roll when filling up.

Atlantic Dawn

Anyone refueled with this and noticed anything plus/negative? I've to refuel from near zero over the next few days, on paper no issue.

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510021#Comment_120510021

I put in a full tank of E10 up north a few weeks ago just finished using a full one of E5 down here, didn't notice any difference and mine still has the sticker on the dash to say use at least 98 Octane.

antodeco

Well I'd assume it would take a few fills for the ECU to adjust itself?

flexcon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510171#Comment_120510171

Not really no, more like a few had flat the mat pulls. The ECU will adjust timing if needed on the fly. Most new cars id say from late 90's have knock sensors in them.

Girl Geraldine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298028#Comment_120298028

Well you see it actually wouldn't. Most petrol stations don't make any profit on selling fuel. The fuel is just a break-even or even loss leader to draw people into the shop and they will buy breakfast rolls, coffee, and other stuff and they make their money on that.

The market for this stuff is so small, no-one is going to bother with the hassle of it cos there is nothing to be gained from it. A few hundred petrol heads scattered around the country for a sunday drive does not a market make.

And anyway, you can get these performance fuels from some places, just not out of pump on a forecourt. Drennan Oil, Murray Motorsport, and a crowd called Sunco in Ennis being just a few examples. You can buy these sorts of performance fuels in barrels. Buy a pallet of it if you want.