4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

km991148

And RE trans slurs.. plenty would have been simply called (insert any of the terms @AllForIt quoted for gay people) anyway.

It's almost like you are trying to make a competition out of it.. Trans rights do not detract from gay rights. Trans rights are not in competition with womens rights. There is room for all.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931177#Comment_117931177

Transsexuals/transvestites/crossdressers are not transgender. They have been appropriated into the Trans Umbrella demographic to create the illusion to an uninformed public that the Trans demographic is much larger than it actually is.

Those three things are psycho-sexual conditions that have nothing to do with the phenomenon of Transgender which is the idea that one is internally/psychologically the opposite gender to their physical body.

The stuff you say about mocking was not about mocking transgender, that was about mocking the sexual kink of crossdressing and gender bending as a sexual fetish. A completely different thing altogether.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931082#Comment_117931082

What I mean about gay appropriation is the narrative being spun on this thread that there's significant numbers of trans youth in schools up and down the country who are fearful of coming out for all the trans bullying that goes on. That trans slurs are commonplace, trans bullying in commonplace, a carbon copy narrative of the gay experience.

Two different groups can have similar experiences. For example if I said Asian people are bullied in school in Ireland, they are being called names etc. Would I be appropriating the "gay experience".

You are interpreting "significant numbers" as "similar numbers to gay people". Nobody is making that argument.

You are also pretending that someone has claimed trans slurs are used in the same context as gay ones. We know gay slurs are used as a way to demean both straight and gay men. No trans slurs are generally not thrown about to Target all men as gay slurs are. But trans slurs are used to describe trans people regularly. And yes I will mail you the most common ones.

So nobody is "appropriating the gay experience". YOU have decided that YOU want to compare claims about trans bullying to gay bullying with the sole purpose of minimising trans bullying.

A TV character? Seriously?

Yes of course. As I said, my peers in the 90s used trans slurs to describe trans people we saw on TV. What difference does it make if they were fictional characters or not?

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931271#Comment_117931271

Your very last sentence is correct.

Everything else hmmm. Trans people existed back then. Most people however did not out themselves as the only common way to identify was mainly either as a transsexual (an outdated term for what would be now a trans person who has undertaken surgery) or as TV/CD. The latter was mocked and for many this simply added to the shame (and don't forget, if they did present as more feminine or butch (for male/female respectively) then they would be getting called all manner of gay slurs as well). The trans people existed but they had no way to acceptably identify. The mocking of anything that would now be called trans was so deeply ingrained in our culture. Therefore we didn't see people who were trans (except for a very few who did manage to get the right combination of an understanding medical professional or access to one of the few books written on the subject).

My 1950s gay example serves as a reasonable analogy. How funny was it to talk about the confirmed bachelor up the street (or any other euphemism you can think of) or snigger at the idea of two men at it? Did gay people exist in the 50s.. of course.. were they able to come out and be accepted.. not really.. attitudes and language change.

I am not sure how else to explain this tbh - and if you don't understand this basic concept, then you really haven't been following the debate so far. I am not trying to have a go at you or anything, but maybe its worth looking into a bit? Otherwise you are just blindly arguing against me for the sake of it.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931304#Comment_117931304

Here what is fair game for trans:

• All of the gay slurs (because well.. you are different and its not like a bully is worrying about being correct)
• All of the slurs for the gender you are trying to identify as
• All of the slurs for the sex you started out as (misgendering someone for example)
• All the obvious ones (tranny etc) - that I refuse to believe are new to @AllForIts ears

but really - I have no idea why @AllForIt is trying to make this a competition.

Trans rights, gay rights and womens rights are not mutually exclusive.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931342#Comment_117931342

He's trying to make it a competition because he believes trans people will lose and therefore he doesn't have to take their issues seriously.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931368#Comment_117931368

As a line of debate it really doesn't make sense. Kinda paints you into a corner.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931304#Comment_117931304

Then why not LGBT+ASIAN

As Graham Linehan pointed out in that interview with Andrew Doyle I linked to previously, everything after the LGB is hetrosexual. Can't believe I never even thought of that myself. And I think heterosexuals are jumping on the LGB bandwagon, to create the illusion that their experience is the exact same as LGB, in school or wherever. I'm saying they are doing that because it's convenient to do so.

My argument about numbers of trans, was not to diminish trans, but to expose that the claim that trans bullying is commonplace is false. How could it be commonplace with commonly used trans slurs, akin to gay slurs, when most schools don't even have a single trans person in their school in the first place.

I'm saying that the trans guidance, including gender fluid and not-binary gender identities, are being introduced for the specific aim of promoting those identities, not for the reason of counteracting 'trans' bullying.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931403#Comment_117931403

"My argument about numbers of trans, was not to diminish trans"... goes on to deny that trans people exist in any numbers worth talking about...

Makes sense you are a Graham Linehan fan as irony is a great form of comedic writing!

km991148

Ill try again - I will keep it really simple this time.

We now have language to better describe people. People can now identify differently. These people always existed, we just didnt have the language before.

There is not some secret agenda to promote trans identities (I mean seriously, to what purpose??) - I can't really simplify it any more.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931330#Comment_117931330

Trans people existed back then. Most people however did not out themselves as the only common way to identify was mainly either as a transsexual (an outdated term for what would be now a trans person who has undertaken surgery) or as TV/CD. The latter was mocked and for many this simply added to the shame (and don't forget, if they did present as more feminine or butch (for male/female respectively) then they would be getting called all manner of gay slurs as well). The trans people existed but they had no way to acceptably identify. The mocking of anything that would now be called trans was so deeply ingrained in our culture. Therefore we didn't see people who were trans (except for a very few who did manage to get the right combination of an understanding medical professional or access to one of the few books written on the subject).

Wrong. Transsexuals were always about men having sexual relations with men. Like in The Crying Game. That character in the movie was a man intent on having sexual relations with a man. He wasn't transgender. Transgender people are heterosexual. Transsexuals are homosexual. It about sex for them, not gender.

Transsexual is not an outdated term, but it has been warped to mean transgender by the likes of Stonewall UK who are bending definitions to suit their aims, in exactly the same way they changed the definition of homosexuality from same sex attraction to same gender attraction. This is just bullshit and they are not going to get away with it in the same way I'm not going to let you get away with it here either.

My 1950s gay example serves as a reasonable analogy. How funny was it to talk about the confirmed bachelor up the street (or any other euphemism you can think of) or snigger at the idea of two men at it? Did gay people exist in the 50s.. of course.. were they able to come out and be accepted.. not really.. attitudes and language change.

And I am saying how convenient is it for you to make such an analogy. Because you are doing exactly what I've been saying your are doing which is carbon copying the gay experience for the advantage of the compelling narrative of it to sway an uninformed public.

I am not sure how else to explain this tbh - and if you don't understand this basic concept, then you really haven't been following the debate so far. I am not trying to have a go at you or anything, but maybe its worth looking into a bit? Otherwise you are just blindly arguing against me for the sake of it.

I'm sorry but you haven't made a compelling argument in this thread or any of the other threads since I began engaging in these kinds of threads and quite frankly I don't find you in the least bit genuine.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931448#Comment_117931448

Clueless. You really should try and speak to more trans people, both those who transitioned in the 90s and now. A dictionary would also be useful.

It would help you out a lot more than watching Linehan interviews.

Your definition of transsexual (and even the word 'wrong'!) is factually incorrect (both historically and what you think has happened now), your bias towards people trying to appropriate gay movement is obvious and your arguments regarding stonewall are pretty much verbatim what Linehan preaches.

I don't know what you mean about not genuine - there is no agenda here - my learnings on this subject are well documented. About a year ago I entered the boards threads fairly ignorant. A lot has changed in that time (for me at least.. some people like to remain blinkered).

And I am not genuine from the person that has never heard a trans slur.. I mean - who are you trying to kid with this nonsense?

EDIT:

I mean - just this sentence alone.. "Transsexuals were always about men having sexual relations with men.".. seriously? I am not sure how someone even jumps to that..??

_Godot_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931448#Comment_117931448

The line "Transgender people are heterosexual. Transsexual people are homosexual." is quite wrong. A transgender woman who is exclusively attracted to women is a lesbian, or she could be bisexual, or pansexual. And a trans man who only attracted to men would be a gay man.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931403#Comment_117931403

Then why not LGBT+ASIAN

More goal post shifting. I asked would a separate group of people experiencing similar discrimination as gay people mean that those who highlight the discrimination of the group be appropriating the gay experience. I assume that since you did some weird goalpost shift back to an old debate about whether there is an LGBT community means that the question I asked is one you don't want to answer. Because obviously saying that trans people are.bullied and have slurs used against them does not.mention gay people and is not appropriating the gay experience.

If you want to answer my question then we can discuss the dofference between a gay+Asian community vs a LGBT community.

As Graham Linehan pointed out in that interview with Andrew Doyle I linked to previously, everything after the LGB is hetrosexual. Can't believe I never even thought of that myself. And I think heterosexuals are jumping on the LGB bandwagon, to create the illusion that their experience is the exact same as LGB, in school or wherever. I'm saying they are doing that because it's convenient to do so.

Yes those who are not gay lesbian or bisexual are heterosexual. I don't think anybody has claimed differently. If by "heterosexuals jumping on the bandwagon" you mean trans people, do you not realise that not all trans people are heterosexual? So how can they be heterosexuals jumping on the gay bandwagon if there is a mix of heterosexuals and gay people involved. Your argument makes no sense. Not surprising as it was inspired by Linehan.

My argument about numbers of trans, was not to diminish trans, but to expose that the claim that trans bullying is commonplace is false. How could it be commonplace with commonly used trans slurs, akin to gay slurs, when most schools don't even have a single trans person in their school in the first place.

That's just you doing your classic egocentric spin on subjective arguments. One could easily.make the claim that as there are far less gay people than straight then gay bullying just cannot possibly be "commonplace". Again nobody has said trans bullying comes close to gay bullying in terms of raw numbers. It's just an argument you've made up in your head. I mean feel free to argue against this imaginary enemy of yours but it seems a little pointless

I'm saying that the trans guidance, including gender fluid and not-binary gender identities, are being introduced for the specific aim of promoting those identities, not for the reason of counteracting 'trans' bullying.

Well I don't think anyone has said that the purpose of the Scottish guidance was anti-bullying. If I recall correctly the anti-bullying stuff was raised.in relation to that gross LGBAlliance group campaigning against an anti-bullying initiative. Again you seem to have just made up an argument that suits you to argue against.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931448#Comment_117931448

Wrong. Transsexuals were always about men having sexual relations with men. Like in The Crying Game. That character in the movie was a man intent on having sexual relations with a man. He wasn't transgender. Transgender people are heterosexual. Transsexuals are homosexual. It about sex for them, not gender.

that's just completely fabricated nonsense. Can you support that with any evidence?

Why are transgender people hetrosexuals? Why can't they be homosexual?

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931781#Comment_117931781

It's kind of disconcerting that some argues so strongly against a group of people when they show that they aren't even sure who those people are. Transexual is quite a specific term and nothing to do with sexuality. It's laughable really.

It discredits a lot of the arguments made on this thread as it shows the true stance.. i.e. being against trams because the perception is that it takes something from them.

km991148

In fact, I think a lot of this thread is like the classic Jean-Paul Sartre quote regarding bath faith arguments and the tendancy towards the absurd.

Seems people are just throwing any old nonsense at the wall to see what sticks. Presumably we are done with the Scottish guidance at this point?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931160#Comment_117931160

Nah, misreading by choice doesn't really count as misreading, but you still haven't answered my question: should there be education, yes or no?

No one's actually said they know what goes on in teenage classrooms, other than you. Bullying goes on, that's a safe bet - but the types of bullying? Only you've stated what happens.

My impression would be that there's a lot of reluctance to come out as trans because of the threat of bullying. Now whether that threat is realistic or not, I don't know. But without education and zero-tolerance bullying approach I'd well believe.

My questions for you at thus point are: would you be in favour of or against education and proposals similar to those mentioned in the Sottish document (NOT the ones in the Daily Mail!) for teenagers; and you would be in favour of or against education/awareness as part of a sex/relationship education package for all teenagers?

archfi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930567#Comment_117930567

Maybe stop with the fairly pathetic attempts to label an LGB movement as 'fascist', 'a hategroup' etc blah-de-blah via the 'Pink News' comic or established movements who have sent out the call to seemingly vulnerable supporters to misrepresent everyone else who simply do not agree with a theoretical ideology or their methodology of formulating an anti-bullying strategy for schools.

Very few of the public want politically charged groups involved in education because therein lies the path to insanity.

No one wants there not to be coherent, unified and effective anti-bullying strategies in our schools.

Don't bother ever quoting to me from 'Pink News' - my funny bone on that one has worn out at this stage.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932237#Comment_117932237

Its kinda difficult to campaign for "coherent, unified and effective anti-bullying" when you specifically lobby against how some of the people who are being bullied want to identify.

How can a group advocate for effective anti-bullying when they deny the existence of one group of people.

Seems a strange stance to take to be honest.

archfi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932415#Comment_117932415

Which movement lobbies 'against' how some people 'want to identify'?

And which movement 'deny the existence of one group of people'?

I see the obnoxious dissemination the resident pinknews correspondent in these parts has done some work.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932517#Comment_117932517

Nah, I don't read that rag, but I do follow the submissions made to Scottish gov.

LGB Alliance do not recognise non binary for example (as well as claiming that gender identification is not based on science).. yet you think such movement are somehow in a position to deliver effective anti bullying campaigns for everyone?

Nice try, but let's try sticking to the easily verifiable facts than making insulations about me being easily led.

Gatling

Next we will get a news report from weatherfield gazette

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932728#Comment_117932728

That's how the thread started - a work of fiction from the Daily Rage :D

Lots of comedians on this thread!

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932612#Comment_117932612

LGB Alliance is a gender critical organisation. Their stance on gender ideology would be similar to an atheist organisation's stance on Christianity, for example. It's not that they "don't recognise" non-binary, as such. It's that they don't have the same faith-based belief in gender identity as people who are of that faith. So while they understand that some people believe themselves to be "non-binary" and don't think they should be discriminated against on that basis, they also don't think that a person who is non-binary (or transgender) should be able to declare themselves the opposite sex and start operating in spaces that are for one sex (the sex that they are not).

I don't wish any ill on trans people - I just don't believe that saying or believing that you are the opposite sex makes you so. In exactly the same way that I don't believe that saying magic words over bread and wine transforms them into literal flesh and blood, no matter how much people who have faith do believe it. And because I don't believe that (e.g.) a trans woman is the same thing as a woman, and I do see valid reasons for single-sex spaces in some situations, I don't think that trans people should be permitted into single sex spaces for the sex that is not the one that they were observed to be at the time of their birth.

I think any Christian attempting to force people say that the bread and wine they're holding is literally flesh and blood should be forcefully pushed back on, too. 🤷‍♀️

archfi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932612#Comment_117932612

What MilkyToast said.

Gender critical women and men do not equate to 'hatefests', 'hate groups', 'fascists', 'far-right' or anything else on the critical social/queer justice scale of laughable emoting which is only aimed at the weak minded.

There will be an open encompassing national conversation eventually - I'm sure that will get a positive thumbs up from thinkers around here.

km991148

Yeah and look, threads like this will only ever go round in circles. I don't believe in euphemisms like "Gender Critical" etc

Or conflating sex with gender.

I also reject strongly the notion that any organisation that rejects the idea of Non Binary will have any respect for those that wish to identify that way. You can't have respect for someone and simultaneously deny (and lobby for the legal right to deny) their existence.

But your Christian analogy is apt. We used to blindly accept the teachings of the Bible as fact. And then we evolved, learned more about the world we live in and things changed, based on science and empirical evidence.

(EDIT: This was in reply to @MilkyToast - but I have no idea how to add a quote in this new boards software

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932977#Comment_117932977)

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933112#Comment_117933112

"Gender Critical" is not a euphemism, and it is nothing that requires belief. It is a term used to describe those who do not believe that a body has a gendered "soul" that is distinct from sex.

You can reject the notion that an organisation that does not believe in "non binary" could teach anti-bullying, but only if you also believe that it would be impossible for an atheist to teach that it's wrong to bully muslims, for example. Gender critical people do not deny the existence of people who believe that they are non-binary (and other trans identities etc) - just as atheists do not deny the existence of muslims. Gender critical people reject the notion of gender identity while understanding that some people believe in it - just as atheists reject the notion of gods and religion while understanding that some people believe in them. Gender critical people do not believe that non binary people should be discriminated against, just as atheist people do not believe that Christians should be discriminated against. Gender critical people do not think that non-binary people's personal beliefs and identity should drive law and policy, just as atheists do not believe that a particular set of religious people's beliefs should drive law and policy. Atheists think that religious people should not be discriminated against for their beliefs, just as GC people think that NB people should not be discriminated against for their beliefs. At the same time, there is a difference between a person's right to their personal beliefs and their right to impose those beliefs and the consequences of them on other people.

And you're right of course. It wasn't that long ago, particularly in Ireland, that we did allow one particular set of faith-based beliefs to dominate law and policy. We have realised what a mistake that was, and will no doubt have an easier time avoiding the same mistake again, with such apt examples to look back on in our recent history. I look forward to the public conversation.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933086#Comment_117933086

No but while you continue to use euphemisms like "Gender Critical" as a way of deny the very existence of trans people (and lets face it, thats exactly what you are doing) then the conversations become very difficult.

I'd rather discuss how to better support trans people or even get into the science or scholarly research into what gender actually is (hint - its not some new notion that the internet invented in the last 10/20 years.. contrary to what @Gatling and others claim).

(Of course I don't expect much depth to conversations such as this when your position is to jump straight to petty name calling..)