4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914751#Comment_117914751

No -

You Just posted the usual nonsense of conspiracy against anything based off the daily fail - which only one of two on here have mentioned Along with the far right ,it's page by page play let's stop a discussion because we're not happy with the actual discussion taken place ,

So let's get the whole far right , transphobic, homophobic , women haters out of the system

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117911832#Comment_117911832

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914296#Comment_117914296

Just gonna focus on this point you made a few days ago;

There is absolutely no need to bring this in to preschools or primary schools ,there is absolutely no need for early years educators to socially transition two and half to four years old, who can't even tie a shoe lace never mind gender identity politics

So, we have the headline. We have the discussion. I'm asking again for evidence of the quote above. Where are early years educators socially transitioning two and a half to four year olds? WHERE? Has this been legislated? Is this a law somewhere? WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Agenda? You are spouting off to me about agenda yet you can't even back up your statements with fact. It would certainly appear that you are the one with agenda, I'm merely asking you for proof. At the minute it looks like you're happy enough to pile onto this for your own reasons rather than presenting any factual evidence at all.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Here's the document:

 https://education.gov.scot/media/xpgo5atb/supporting-transgender-pupils-schools-guidance-scottish-schools_.pdf

Here's the headline:

Scotland will let pupils change gender aged FOUR without their parents' consent

Show me where the Daily Mail claim is in the document and I'll happily concede the point.

Fail to show me - or ignore the point completly in place of another ad homeinem or sarky responce - and we'll know point about it being scaremongering ignorace will remain untouched.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914886#Comment_117914886

Again I Stand by what I say,

identify politics doe not belong in preschool settings ,or primary schools for most part ,and yes allowing children to change their name and gender in settings from early years to primary is socially transitioning children ...

And yet we seen the same self anointed would deny that's social transitions being exactly that ,

And it has nothing to do with the daily fail 😂

circadian

No evidence. I'm done.

Best of luck in your future endeavours, Gatling.

chopperbyrne

It was never going to be as sensational as a Daily Mail headline, but there are definitely worrying things in that government issued guidance, such as not informing parents if the child doesn't want them to be informed.

Other sections seem contradictory, as the whole point of the article is that gender and sex are different, but then they seem to use gender and sex interchangeably at times.

There's also a section about changing and bathroom facilities, that says if any young person is uncomfortable with the facilities provided, they should be given access to single use facilities.

So, if a teenage girl is unhappy with a teenage trans-girl being in the girls changing rooms, she must change somewhere else, and not the trans-girl.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914944#Comment_117914944

yet to hear what you actually want to do about trans children. Sweeping them under the carpet because you don't like the idea of it isn't really an option any more.

But of course you wont answer that, you will pretend you still have me blocked as it doesn't suit your narrative.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914956#Comment_117914956

Lol

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117915492#Comment_117915492

...

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914980#Comment_117914980

This crops up regularly ,it's always contradictory and If a girl feels uncomfortable they are in the wrong because they are transphobic .

Some will say as long as a child is comfortable it's all good ,but tell the others child who is uncomfortable to sod off ,

It's all one way or no way with a certain group

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914944#Comment_117914944

Which is fine and not what's happening on Scotland. Why on earth did you think it was...? (Rhetorical question, don't waste any posts replying, we're done here).

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117915572#Comment_117915572

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914980#Comment_117914980

The guidance says or implies no such thing about girls being transphobic if they feel uncomfortable.

Its generally about listening to all young people concern and being as accommodating as possible not excluding trans or non trans. @Gatling - have you even bothered to read the sections concerning the topics you are commenting on (doubt it)?

There is a particular section about the provision of gender neutral bathrooms and how to provide these while explicitly making girls feel comfortable.

Jesus wept - is reading so hard these days?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117915709#Comment_117915709

End of discussion ....

And yet it's not going to be the last opinion you give , opinion is the key word

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914903#Comment_117914903

I've already read that document myself and technically what the Daily Mail headline says is correct.

I recall the document stated that the teacher/staff should be 'led' by the child and the teacher/staff should 'respect' what the child says. Given children start school at age 4 then technically the headline is correct, if highly unlikely a child of age 4 would make such a request to the teaching staff.

If you are supporting a transgender young person, be led by them, checking with them what pronoun and/or name you should use and in which circumstances. This may be different depending on whether it's in public or private, and may change over time. This is part of the process of their transition

****

It is recognised that it is essential that the needs and rights of transgender young people, as with all young people, should be met and respected.

And because I distinctly recall the key words 'led' and 'respect' I was able to easily search the document to extract the above for you. Also the inference from these remarks is that parental consent is not required, not that I'm suggesting that that infers that parents should be shut out.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913707#Comment_117913707

Its a lot easier to do so precisely because of all the work that has been done in anti bullying campaigns which are now being attacked and undermined by trans hate groups and posters here too.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117917515#Comment_117917515

"Inference" so basically all we have is people jumping to their own conclusions based on hot air about what is meant as proof that the Daily Mail is correct. What a joke. An absolute Joke.

None of what you are saying other than your own personal presumptions/conclusions/inferences proves the Daily Mail Headline correct

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117917720#Comment_117917720

Your absolutely wrong ,

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862015#Comment_117862015

I don’t need to, the health service have such lists as well as funding priorities. The minute you enter a hospital the healthcare and how / when it is administered to you is based on your critical need. Not a critical want.

This thread doesn’t get defined by you.. you are wrong in any case.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913707#Comment_117913707

I don't think it's about 'coming out' as such. In respect of gay anyway. It's more about that they have one less concern, that they might be ostracized if their sexuality was suspected by their peers and family. So it's not about encouraging people to 'come out'. When one comes out is up to them. When I personally think back to my school years I don't regret not coming out to my teenage classmates though I was well aware by 15. It's a private thing not a tribal thing.

As for your latter, I personally think that there are people coming out as gender fluid and non-binary as a direct result of hearing about these things via the internet, young gay people particularly, as I've mentioned previously. So I wouldn't use the term coercion but more influenced.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117917782#Comment_117917782

Well that's me told!

It's very apt that we are on a thread about school children - the "debate" really is down at the playground level.

You are correct tho, I don't define the thread, but I do try and stick to the allowed topic, and not all these whacky conspiracy theories about children having surgery (which is absolutely laughable that at this point in the thread, people still think is even a thing).

That's before we even get into your implication that trans (adult) people are having some kind of cosmetic surgery (but again, it's off topic, so I don't think the mods want it discussed).

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117917797#Comment_117917797

Even if your last paragraph is correct there, what exactly is the big deal in how people identify.

(I really don't think gay people are being influenced into a different gender).

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117917813#Comment_117917813

That's a very reductive question. What difference does anything make to anything. We'd have to start the whole trans debate from the beginning to answer your question. You have been following it thus far...haven't you?

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117917751#Comment_117917751

Sorry I don't get you. I read the guidance in the same way a teacher would read the guidance. What I read is exactly what a teacher would read, isn't it. That pdf is the actual guidance, not a general summary of it, no?

I don't get what part of the guidance you say I'm misinterpreting specifically and more importantly what is your understating of the guidance in comparison to mine? And wouldn't a teacher possibly equally jump to their own conclusion as you suggest I am?

Anyway, if you are saying what the Daily Mail said is wrong, what part of it is technically wrong? You can argue it's sensationalist but it's not technically wrong as I previously said and you haven't argued anything that proves otherwise except to say I've interpreted the guidance wrong.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117917515#Comment_117917515

'Be led by them' - is the exact opposite of coerce them.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918019#Comment_117918019

I think they are being encouraged to allow them to lead or something. Like a graduate training program for managerial positions. That way they can go on to trans other kids too - you have been following thus far, haven't you?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918029#Comment_117918029

Kind of reminds of the graduation scene at the end of the film "in and out"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCsEYjyf-9g

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918369#Comment_117918369

Never seen that before..! Makes me feel old now- when did the 90s start looking like the 70s :D

Also - its a good reminder of how much things have changed - why are some so determined to go back to that level of nonsense?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918463#Comment_117918463

Very undertated comedy.

"Hi honey! I just bumped into Peter at the intersexual! I mean the homosection!"

RWCNT

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914980#Comment_117914980

I go back and forth on your first point about informing the parents, I can see the two sides of it and I'm not really sure myself.

But how is the provision of separate facilities for those uncomfortable changing in front of a trans person worrying? I've seen numerous gender-critical people ask for exactly this. It's a compromise that allows for privacy for anyone that wants it, and appears to be a decent solution to a huge chunk of the issues that present themselves on debates of gender identity.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918953#Comment_117918953

I believe it's down to the fact of if child is uncomfortable changing Infront of the opposite sex and in most cases it's just a single child raising concerns ,they shouldn't be the ones being made to change elsewhere ,

And it keeps coming up and the replies usually tend to say the bigots can change elsewhere , these are children with genuine concerns and issues with their bodies ,but we shouldn't listen to them ,but have to put gender identity politics on a pedistool and can't challenge anything thing in the discussion

It's looking for nothing but a Echo chamber