Boosters

Black Swan

Across the pond the Biden administration, CDC, and FDA are moving relatively quickly to approve Covid boosters. All 3 major suppliers of vaccines have now submitted required data for peer and agency review. The shared news media guess as to approval and distribution of boosters to over 65, those with serious medical conditions, and front line workers appears to be by Halloween. Let us hope that holiday is not prophetic (from this zombie to all others). 😎

Distribution ramp up is already in progress and boosters should be free to all Americans. Walk ins without appointments are quite common. Oddly a very large percentage of the population are reluctant to be vaccinated in America, even though the vast majority of today’s hospitalized Covid patients and deaths are by the unvaccinated. Over 670,000 Americans have died with thousands every week.

My university employer continues to mandate that thou shalt get vaccinated or do not come to work. No exceptions for faculty, staff, or students. Frankly, I agree with this demand. As to boosters, they have not posted any guideline yet.

Black Swan

Oh, the JNJ vaccination data that was submitted from their Covid studies this week show a marked efficacy improvement from the 70s to the 90s if boosted two months after the one original dose.

Admittedly, Covid studies have only undergone short and now midterm studies. Not enough time has existed for longitudinal studies of original dosages and boosters to be conducted. The sample sizes have been significantly large (millions) lending support for their results.

schmoo2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925427#Comment_117925427

Sounds like JNJ should really have been a 2 dose vaccine and not 1 dose?

Black Swan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925977#Comment_117925977

Perhaps. Then again, its formulation was quite different than the other two available in the USA. In any case, it appears that as a booster it will receive approval shortly. Its original distribution occurred about 2 months behind the other two. So it appears to be similar in timing.

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925427#Comment_117925427

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895421#Comment_117895421

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117849303#Comment_117849303

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117835591#Comment_117835591

I wont take a booster and most i have spoken to has said the same. Will we now be classified as anti vaxxers or anti boosters?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930592#Comment_117930592

Possibly both, but in reality you are exercising your right under the constitution to be an eejit.

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930673#Comment_117930673

Going to be a lot of eejits out there then. Which side is the question.

Big Gerry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922322#Comment_117922322

That's insane if the vaccine worked in the first place we wouldn't need boosters.

Azatadine

As a recipient of the Janssen one dose, I'd feel much more comfortable of I could get a booster of same, particularly since Delta.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931521#Comment_117931521

Only if you believe that the measure of the effectiveness of a vaccine depends solely on the duration of its efficacy. As a health professional I am required to be vaccinated against Hep B, for this I need to receive repeat vaccinations regularly for as long as I practice, does that mean the vaccine doesn’t work? Of course not, it means that in order to be protected my immune system needs to be boosted with a new vaccination every couple of years.

The past year has shown us how quickly new strains can emerge, and spread. If a more potent/deadly one spreads in the unvaccinated population, there will be no one else to blame, or to be held to account.

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931585#Comment_117931585

Yes but the vaccine is very "leaky" and as we now know infects even fully vaccinated quite easily and allows them to transmit as well. Yes it protects against severe disease but the benefits against transmission are questionable. If the infected are asymptiomatic due to the vaccine but still shedding virus and transmitting we will never eradicate the virus and variants will still occur. High transmission rates in highly vaccinated countries including our own are showing a disturbing correlation.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931585#Comment_117931585

We can't continue to view SARS-COV-2 as novel. That phase is over and the aim will be to treat it like other respiratory diseases, notably flu. Flu has jabs each year but is only encouraged for those who need it but even in the thick of this only had demand for about a quarter of the population. There's no question that some people may need COVID shots but it will not be repeated on this scale again and hopefully we get a lot better at identifying who they are.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931732#Comment_117931732

Covid is not the flu, all viruses are not equal.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931742#Comment_117931742

Both are matters of public health disease management so in that respect they are the same and that is what we are moving towards. There is no science to show the benefit of regular boosters to the whole population, but making them available to certain groups makes sense.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931763#Comment_117931763

Yes, and due to the very obvious differences between the flu and Covid pandemic, the management of spread and its affect differ enormously.

Surely you are not saying that as both are viruses, both should be managed in the exact same way.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931788#Comment_117931788

Ultimately they will, as COVID becomes yet another respiratory illness, just as all of us will catch a dose of COVID if we haven't already. We'll also see more treatments, even over the counter stuff like we have with colds and flus.

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931731#Comment_117931731

This is a report on "leaky" vaccines that was published before we knew about Covid.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/leaky-vaccines-can-produce-stronger-versions-of-viruses-072715#What-We-Learned-from-Chickens

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931799#Comment_117931799

Ultimately yes, what you posted is the best case scenario, provided mutations don’t lead to ever more deadly and virulent strains. Can you give any indication of how long it will take for Covid to become an illness we need no longer be concerned about?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931838#Comment_117931838

Did you read the articles on your link, other than the ones about the chickens?

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931585#Comment_117931585

You are not required to have a Hep B vaccine. It is recommended.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931731#Comment_117931731

Transmission is reduced by those with a vaccine by 80% or more, this is a virus with a high R0, the fact we have R below 1 (because of vaccines) is a miracle.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931838#Comment_117931838

This isn't an issue when there is still a large number of unvaccinated people who are a bigger source of mutations, all variants of interest have come from unvaccinated communities, the vaccines both reduce the viral load faster and prevent infection in the first place, both of which reduce the chances of mutations occurring and spreading. Because vaccines target the spike protein so effectively the chance of complete immune escape is quite low unless the virus mutates to a completely different virus (in which case the exact same can happen with every other circulating virus).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931871#Comment_117931871

You'd be a pretty sh*tty health professional if you weren't getting the vaccines you can take (as well as a pretty awful human). Health professionals are more likely to be exposed and more likely to pass on diseases and are working with vulnerable patients every day.

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932011#Comment_117932011

Lovely. Calling 50% of healthcare professionals **** human beings for not taking the flu vaccine

https://hselibrary.ie/what-evidence-is-there-for-mandatory-flu-vaccination-for-healthcare-workers/

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932033#Comment_117932033

In 30 yrs of hospital/private practice, I’ve never been interviewed for a position, nor interviewed anyone else where vaccination status was not discussed/required. Ethically, for the safety of patients/fellow HCWs, Hep B vaccination is required, vaccination against flu is a personal choice, but certainly recommended.

My reason for mentioning Hep B was a previous posters assertion that because a vaccine does not give long lasting immunity, it must not work/benefit the recipient. This is clearly a nonsense.

Azatadine

Will us forgotten Janssen recipients be considered for an mRNA booster or a second dose of Janssen I wonder? In terms of risk, it can't be that different than anyone that received one doze of AZ.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932033#Comment_117932033

If I'm putting my customers at risk for something that is zero risk to myself, I'm a sh*tty human being. Doctors who didn't sanitize their hands between patients are complete sh*ts as well (nurses were usually much better at this).

I'd imagine we'll see very high flu vaccination rates among health professionals this year, but those that don't take it should be ashamed of themselves.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932215#Comment_117932215

The number of vulnerable who got Janssen is probably very small, but it looks like only an mRNA booster on the cards until further ordered vaccines come online.

Black Swan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931585#Comment_117931585

Indeed. There are so many reasons for the common practice of using boosters today. Many examples could be discussed here. Step on a rusty nail. Your GP may prescribe a tetanus “booster” if it has been some time since your last vaccination? Makes me wonder why there is such a fuzz about Covid boosters and not all the others?

Once again, there has not been enough time since late 2019 to conduct longitudinal studies. Boosters for other medical conditions existing for 5 or more years benefit from such time frame studies. But the population sizes for Covid have been extraordinary large and statistically significant (N in the millions). Studies have used both controlled as well as quasi-controlled designs in the natural world.

There are many accepted, long standing vaccines that do not have such population sizes, consequently longitudinal studies are highly important towards establishing reliability, validity, and efficiency.

Methinks that the real problem that exists in the case with Covid-19 is that it has been politically weaponized. Especially by a certain group of politicians across the pond that continue to spread disinformation in ways that may benefit their 2022 and 2024 election chances among the voters that do not understand the science behind the public health concerns of Covid.

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930673#Comment_117930673

I felt that the hostility directed towards the vaccine hesitant would eventually be directed towards the booster hesitant.

Didn't think it would start this early though.

Black Swan

Another problem exists with the design of the scientific method. It does not prove anything. It only suggests. And such suggestions exist in science so long as they continue to receive support from continuing studies. That is why we need longitudinal COVID-19 studies for vaccines and boosters. The same thing applies to all vaccines and boosters.

We also need longitudinal studies to examine how such diseases evolve, especially with one affecting millions like Covid (delta, etc). Such data may allow for the necessary changes of vaccines and boosters accordingly.

If you want to make me laugh, just replay the most recent Telly commercials that have someone in a lab coat with a Doctor title claiming that their wonder drug has been clinically proven to do this or that. That is not science. It is marketing. And such marketing works in terms of sales or they would not continue to advertise.

If I error here, it may be due to an oversimplification of the scientific method. For those seeking more depth, read Karl Popper. Try rapping your mind about his discussions of why we should proceed with the null hypothesis rather than with what we hope to be valid (research hypothesis). Popper’s falsification principle may require a cup of coffee. Works for me.

Black Swan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932215#Comment_117932215

Word across the pond is that like-be-like. Match vaccine with its boosters. There is some research concerning mix-matching, but I am unfamiliar with the results at this moment in time. Chats with my university employer suggest matching vaccines with their boosters. But that could change after more study results.

Personally I will match now, as soon as the boosters become available. I owe it to my lab partners, students, colleagues, family, and friends to do what I can to avoid spreading the plague.

of course, your GP or chemist may bea much better source than this discussion forum.