Vaccination requirements to work in a tech job office in Dublin

global23214124

I had an interview the other day and the recruiter mentioned that it would be a requirement to be vaccinated in order to enter the Dublin office unless you couldn't due to medical or religious reasons. Is this legal or a bit of a grey area?

baldbear

There is no mandatory vaccinations for employees in Ireland.

Employers have a big headache now with employees coming back unvaccinated. I'd imagine they would not hire someone who indicates they are not getting vaccinated. Of course they won't say that but that's what they will do.

Neddyusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117778453#Comment_117778453

Hiring people here and if they're vaccinated or vasectomised doesn't matter a jot to me so long as they can do a good job .

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117778477#Comment_117778477

Would be nice though

floorpie

If they said that travel to the US and head office were required would that get around any Irish regulations?

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058204894/vaccination-requirements-to-work-in-a-tech-job-office-in-dublin

I would suggest that they are acting unlawfully. They should receive a strong rebuke from legal people to prevent the commission of a crime by them.

seamus

@Risteard81 wrote:

I would suggest that they are acting unlawfully.

On what basis?

OP, to answer the question the short answer as to whether they can do this is "probably". You phrase it very specifically that, "To enter the Dublin office" requires vaccination.

If it is a remote job where working in the office is a possibility - but only for vaccinated people - then they absolutely can do this. If it's a case that it's a job on site and you must be vaccinated to get into the office, then it is a grey area.

Strictly speaking they may not be able to demand your vax status before giving you the job, but on your first day if you cannot get into the office because you cannot prove you're vaccinated, then they can just fire you and there's fvck all you can do about it.

As another person says above, they may also make travel to US an occasional condition of employment. As a result if you cannot go when they send you because you're unvaccinated, they can just fire you.

Functionally you can be let go for any reason in the first 12 months and there's nothing you can do about it.

d15ude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117779695#Comment_117779695

'because you cannot prove you're vaccinated' you don't have to provide such personal medical details to your employer.

What next, they ask for your sperm count?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117779794#Comment_117779794

Are you going to give it to someone else on the office?

Mrs OBumble

It's really a silly requirement: being vaccinated reduces your risk of getting badly ill.

But it doesn't stop you getting ill, of transmitting Covid-19. So social distancing and good ventilation, and masking if they cannot be achieved, are still required of everyone.

elefant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780188#Comment_117780188

It doesn't stop you catching it, but it makes it less likely and makes you less likely to pass it on. Hardly a silly requirement.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780188#Comment_117780188

Silly?

Would you be happy for your ventilated sick child (or significant person) in ICU to be treated by nurses and doctors who are not vaccinated?

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117779794#Comment_117779794

Functionally, the operator of any private premises can ask you to pull down your pants and show them your arse if they want. You can refuse, and just not enter the premises.

Obviously when access to those premises is required by individuals for work or any other kind of necessary business, entry requirements have to be somewhat limited to things that are necessary to preserve the business. So a gym can refuse entry unless you have proof of membership. Because otherwise anyone can wander in and the business goes bust.

Likewise, in the interests of protecting the health of staff (a statutory obligation), a business may be entitled to insist that all people entering the premises - staff and visitors - are vaccinated and can show proof of such.

It's a grey area, but there are plenty of reasons why it may be legal, and arguments for it being illegal are relatively flimsy.

Of course, companies are going to come a cropper on this. As soon as a very important customer or board member gets a special dispensation to enter the building despite being unvaccinated, the company is going to be sued to high heaven.

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117779695#Comment_117779695

Well they're not allowed even ask atm so there's no need to prove you're vaccinated or not. That might change of course, but atm, employers have no ability to ask or refuse you a job cos you're unvaccinated if they do find that out.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780335#Comment_117780335

Yes: I'd expect the staff to have appropriate PPE.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780369#Comment_117780369

This is incorrect, the DPC have stated that in certain circumstances, if it is a necessary safety measure, employers can request information on vaccination status. There is another thread about this already.

Cuddlesworth

Seems like a few of you are confusing checking vaccination status on existing employees versus using it for vetting new employees. You need the cert to use the inside of a pub, you need the cert to fly to destinations and its probably likely you will get asked for the cert on applying for some jobs.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780369#Comment_117780369

They can be smart when asking. Like is there anything that would impede you travelling abroad on short notice (being vaccinated, you can hop on a plane the same day, with testing it can take time and a positive test would impede you travelling).

If the rule about not having to self isolate if you're fully vaccinated and have no symptoms is still there, they can ask if there's anything preventing you entering the office if a close contact tests positive.

Not sure about the legality about asking the second one, but the first one is certainly a valid question. Obviously if the job doesn't entail internation travel, they may need to word it better. But company lawyers are crafty devils!

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780469#Comment_117780469

Having to arrange childcare would also impede travel at the drop of a hat - and is another factor that employers cannot use to discriminate.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780418#Comment_117780418

It seems that you misunderstand what PPE is - the ‘E’ is for equipment. A vaccine is not equipment.

For clarity - do you think healthcare staff should be vaccinated if they are treating patients?

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780422#Comment_117780422

None of those circumstances apply for a tech job office though

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780335#Comment_117780335

Absolutely, because it's none of my business whether they've taken the needle(s) or not.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780369#Comment_117780369

As this man 👇️ says, there is a difference between asking existing employees for this information, and asking new employees.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780428#Comment_117780428

Nevertheless, if an employer now wants to make their office "vaccinated only" while giving existing unvaccinated employees the option to work from home, they can likely do that too.

Lux23

If you're not going to get vaccinated, I am sure your moral compass will also allow you to lie about it.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117781165#Comment_117781165

There is absolutely no way you have children

growleaves

Don't take any of the replies in this thread as the last word on anything, since several posters here specialise in pressurising people and their perspective is so tendentious as to be comical ('you must not have a moral compass').

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780335#Comment_117780335

Wasn't that happening for months before vaccines were available?

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117781379#Comment_117781379

Brilliant logic. That made me laugh.

Another poster said:

Mrs OBumble11:57 am

It's really a silly requirement: being vaccinated reduces your risk of getting badly ill.

But it doesn't stop you getting ill, of transmitting Covid-19. So social distancing and good ventilation, and masking if they cannot be achieved, are still required of everyone.

I used a real life clinical example that I face daily to explore whether the poster truly believed it ‘silly’ and whether they thought vaccines were PPE.

Using the logic of your response, then this thread isn’t worth exploring as employees weren’t concerned with whether there employees were vaccinated “for months before vaccines were available?”

The fact is that vaccines are available, and that all healthcare staff must be vaccination and be asked if they are vaccinated if they are treating patients, and this puts employers in a difficult spot as doctors and nurses are employees like anyone else

Being vaccinated to protect others - which it does (and incorrectly stated by that poster) is not silly. It protects lives. Lots of ‘em.

floorpie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780359#Comment_117780359

Functionally, the operator of any private premises can ask you to pull down your pants and show them your arse if they want. You can refuse, and just not enter the premises.

They can ask and refuse your entry but they may be opening themselves to litigation, whether through employment law, discrimination law, or otherwise. You choosing not to enter the premises doesn't remove the legal obligations upon them

Likewise, in the interests of protecting the health of staff (a statutory obligation), a business may be entitled to insist that all people entering the premises - staff and visitors - are vaccinated and can show proof of such.

They may also insist but I believe the onus would be on them to prove that this is necessary for the running of the business, and I'm not sure they'd be able to do this seeing as business are following government guidelines in this regard and these guidelines do not mandate vaccination, and seeing as businesses have run successfully during the pandemic, before vaccination. It would presumably depend on the role also. I'm sure a company could finagle a role specification that necessitates vaccination though.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780335#Comment_117780335

Why does that even matter..same chances of passing it on.

Worry about yourself not everyone else.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117781687#Comment_117781687

As healthcare professional, not only is it my job to worry about the care and safety of my patients but it’s also my legal requirement. I can be sacked, sued and struck off if I didn’t worry about them.

seamus

@floorpie wrote:

They can ask and refuse your entry but they may be opening themselves to litigation, whether through employment law, discrimination law, or otherwise. You choosing not entering the premises doesn't remove the legal obligations upon them

I put in ridiculous scenarios, because "can they ask ..." comes up so frequently as a question, when the fact is that outside of a few scenarios it is not illegal for someone to ask any question of you. The individual always has the right to refuse to answer it. Then everyone moves on with their lives.

Non-vaccination is not a protected ground for discrimination. In general, it is perfectly legal to discriminate against unvaccinated people. It is still a complex area, but despite all of the noise, if a business decides tomorrow to operate a vaccinated-only policy, there is basically nothing anyone can do about it. They are not, by default, breaking the law. Unlike, say, a policy where they refuse to let gay people in. That is, by default, illegal.

The Gardai cannot force them to let you in. The Data Protection Commissioner will not declare them in breach of any regulations.

The only way to force their hand would be a court case ruling on the legality of such a move.

floorpie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117781772#Comment_117781772

I put in ridiculous scenarios, because "can they ask ..." comes up so frequently as a question, when the fact is that outside of a few scenarios it is not illegal for someone to ask any question of you. The individual always has the right to refuse to answer it. Then everyone moves on with their lives.

A private person can ask, sure. A private business can't just ask whatever of employees or customers, if what they're asking is illegal (where "illegal" can include subtle things). Maybe I'm misreading you.

Non-vaccination is not a protected ground for discrimination. In general, it is perfectly legal to discriminate against unvaccinated people. It is still a complex area, but despite all of the noise, if a business decides tomorrow to operate a vaccinated-only policy, there is basically nothing anyone can do about it. They are not, by default, breaking the law. Unlike, say, a policy where they refuse to let gay people in. That is, by default, illegal.

Non-vaccination isn't a grounds under equal status or employment equality, no. But there are still ways in which these acts might protect a person who's denied service or has issues with an employer. For example if a person has an immune disorder, this might be considered a disability (defined in the act as "the presence in the body of organisms causing, or likely to cause, chronic disease or illness"). Mandating vaccination in this case could be construed as indirect discrimination under the acts.

Tongue in cheek, but being irrationally anti-vax is arguably a disability if you could get it diagnosed somehow, defined in the act as "a condition, disease or illness which affects a person's thought processes, perception of reality, emotions or judgement or which results in disturbed behaviour"

My point is essentially that it's not simple, imo.

The only way to force their hand would be a court case ruling on the legality of such a move.

Basically this

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117781687#Comment_117781687

The chances of passing it on when vaccinated are not the same, not sure why some people keep on repeating that lie.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117781149#Comment_117781149

That remains to be seen, an application can be made to the DPC by an employer if there is an outbreak which impacts safety. Don’t be surprised if there are procedural changes as employees return to offices.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117781882#Comment_117781882

Because it suits them.

If selfish **** convince themselves that being vaccinated doesn't protect others, then selfish **** can claim not to be selfish **** at all by refusing to be vaccinated.

But it's pretty irrelevant. Someone with the mentality to refuse to get vaccinated and still want to go back to the office is just going to lie about their status anyway. That's what we're dealing with here.

I won't claim to be a legal expert but if I was back in the office and I knew unvaccinated people were circulating freely, I'd probably tell my employer that I was staying at home.

copeyhagen

wife works for a sub company of HSE. every job posted on their internal applications noticeboard has

"proof of vaccination will be required in this position"

usernamegoes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117781772#Comment_117781772

It is illegal to ask someone a question that would constitute the processing of personal data where no lawful basis in Arts 6 and 9 of GDPR are present and/or such processing is excessive.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117782384#Comment_117782384

Article 6.1.d

It is legal when...

"processing is necessary in order to protect the vital interests of the data subject or of another natural person"

If you refuse to get a vaccine but insist on coming to the office, you are endangering the "vital interests" of your coworkers, thus you could easily argue your employer is entitled to request and process this data.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058204894/vaccination-requirements-to-work-in-a-tech-job-office-in-dublin

Mentioning something is a requirement, is not the same as asking a direct question. They didn't ask if you were vaccinated or not.

An astute interviewer would most likely have been watching you and your body language carefully for your reaction to the information about the Dublin office.

It may even have helped determine how much further you will go in the interview process.

Stormyteacup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117782363#Comment_117782363

This is understandable. But thinking through it a bit.. it’s different from an office building being off limits for unvaccinated.

If it were the case that HSE employees, both vaccinated and unvaccinated would never encounter each other indoors, such as in a canteen for example, then it could be extrapolated as a premise for excluding unvaccinated from office buildings.

The decision to restrict certain areas of HSE to vaccinated only was taken after consultation with AG. It’s been made legal in the US, but private companies here are imo premature and expect issue to be clarified by AG prior to removal of wfh where possible guideline.

ohnohedidnt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117782328#Comment_117782328

Vaccinated are less likely to carry the disease, about 2/3rds less likely. But 90% of people in Ireland are vaccinated, so if you work with 10 people and 1 is unvaccinated, you're more likely to catch it from a vaccinated person than the non vaccinated person, and if the vaccine works at preventing serious illness for you, you have nothing to worry about either way. So why care?

If your concern is about personal outcomes for the unvaccinated, employers should also consider not allowing obese people into the office, because even if vaccinated they're at much more risk than an unvaccinated healthy person.

There are legitimate concerns around the vaccine, and nobody should be compelled to take any drug they don't want to. Not too long ago the people of this country were preaching "My body, my choice", where did all those people go?, we could use them now.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117783554#Comment_117783554

The "my body, my choice" thing doesn't hold up here.

I have absolutely no concern for the personal outcomes of people who choose not get vaccinated. If you want to get Covid, that's fine.

However, you'll likely infect several other people in the process. That's not fine.

So it's your choice, but other people's bodies.

A better comparison is smoking in the office. That is banned not to protect the smokers but to protect others from them.

Those of us who do the right thing deserve to be protected from those who choose not to.

If you don't want to take the vaccine that's fine, I totally agree no one should be forced to. But you cannot expect to opt out of very important parts of shared society and still expect to participate in everything else.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117783647#Comment_117783647

If you don't want to take the vaccine that's fine, I totally agree no one should be forced to. But you cannot expect to opt out of very important parts of shared society and still expect to participate in everything else.

You'd have a case if vaccines were 100% effective against the virus and transmission, but they are not yet some companies are operating as if they are. You're also heading down a very dubious path where others decide how people's choices dictate how much they are allowed to be part of society. It's really not far off the very divisive mask no-mask politics of the US.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117783720#Comment_117783720

No, vaccines are not 100% effective against transmission.

But being unvaccinated is 0% effective.

Now, if an employer can do SOMETHING to protect their employees, even if that protection is not absolute, then they're probably obliged to do it.

It's like saying a hard hat won't protect you on a building site if a cement mixer falls on you, so hard hats are pointless.

As for choices dictating participation, I would argue it is the choice of the anti vaxxers that is dictating the consequences. This isn't like home schooling your kids or being a vegan. This is making a choice that will kill other people.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117783797#Comment_117783797

Hard hats do protect people, a policy based on a flawed or unreliable assumption is not protection. The last part merely reinforces the perception of where some people have got themselves to in all of this. One would hope that will in due course abate.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117779660#Comment_117779660

What law are they breaking? Perhaps if they tried to force existing employees, but in an interview, unless they impinge on the nine protected catagories in discrimination, mostly anything goes.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058204894/vaccination-requirements-to-work-in-a-tech-job-office-in-dublin

Just get vaccinated

The employers are only trying to protect their employees and business from a global pandemic that has already killed millions of people

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780726#Comment_117780726

It would but it would not prevent you from traveling continually. You could arrange childcare with notice, you cannot travel on a plane without a COVID cert. If foreign travel was a requirement of the job asking for a COVID certificate would be like looking for a driving license off a travelling salesman

Former Former Former

On a purely pragmatic level, I don't know how any could start off a new job with this sort of discussion and not expect it to have serious ramifications for their career.

Employers want workers who solve problems, not ones who create them

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117783814#Comment_117783814

Vaccines protect people. I think I saw a stat that of the 50 odd ICU cases, less than 10( I think the numbers quoted was 5) are people who have been vaccinated. That's a startling statistic. As people most impacted by COVID are older or vulnerable people.

In a way it shows your misunderstanding of safety. Yes a hardhead will protect you if a nut or bolt falls from a height it will stop you from a life changing injury if it hits your head, if it bounces onto your shoulder or hits yo on the back you still get injured, if it's an RSJ that falls on you, it no f@@king use. So the hard hat done not provide 100% protection either.

It's interesting as well that you choose hard hats. ESB electricians are require to wear hard hats even inside in installation where nothing will fall on them on insulated floors. It prevents the top head from providing an earth contact off equipment that might kill them if they come in contact with live current.