Novavax and the lack of Vaccine Choice

Kingkong

I don't understand this bulls**t. The idea you get to choose what brand of vaccine you want is nonsense. The normal person has not a clue about clinical trials and the process that goes on with vaccines. That is why it is regulated through the EU medicines boards and FDA and medical professionals are employed to do all this. As a last line of defense is your GP and of course there will always be rare exceptions to deal with. This is not a new approach we all got vaccines from early childhood never questioning what brand was put into us. What changed that's now making people question this well-established process?

Frankly, we are absolutely spoiled in Ireland and don't realize how good things are in our healthcare system compared to many other countries in the world. We shouldn't be demanding choice.

Wibbs

You can argue about whether enough is known and enough safety trials have happened for the components (and the fact that you took an AdenoVector vaccine means you're clearly happy with the safety vs. the virus risk, or took it to get on with things),

I took it for all of the above and I'm 53. No health issues, but figured it was worth a punt. If I were 33 I'd be very much in two minds. If I were 23 I'd not bother to be frank. If my only choice had been Pfizer/mRNA? I'd be 50/50 tbh. J&J had clotting issues, but in tiny numbers and most were in young women of childbearing age and I'm none of the above. 😁

You keep on banging on about the early days of mRNA, but that's been true of pretty much every new technology and there is nothing untoward there that would point to any major issues as the science has developed.

And you keep banging on about the science being more developed. It is not. It is the exact same lipid vector method. The same method that shut the tech down outside vaccine research because of the risks being too high in other therapies. The lipids were the problem where it came to toxicity. The too high risks fit the "untoward" category. Plus immediate side effects and effects that show up before the immune system stuff is kicking in are notably higher for the mRNA vaccines compared to the AV vaccines.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117784994#Comment_117784994

The goal should be to get people vaccinated.. if a person refuses the offer of a vaccine so be it..

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785058#Comment_117785058

I'll point out that I have linked to some of the up to date research around lipids and you can see the trajectory that the technology is going, the allergen issue is orders of magnitude less of an issue than before and they've figured out the dosing so there is no concerns with repeated exposure (unless you actually are allergic) to the extent that the cosmetics industry will likely start using it soon (expect it to be used in facial smoothers/plumpers/de-plumpers depending on the target market).

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785026#Comment_117785026

The normal person has not a clue about clinical trials and the process that goes on with vaccines. That is why it is regulated through the EU medicines boards and FDA and medical professionals are employed to do all this. As a last line of defense is your GP and of course there will always be rare exceptions to deal with.

For a start your average GP hasn't much more of a clue about the specifics of vaccines. These days especially in busy urban practices if it's not your basic cough and sniffle they're more like triage filters for consultants. Secondly the very same medical professionals here and abroad were giving out all sorts of advice throughout this pandemic and regularly contradictory advice with it. The back and forth on masks was a good example. For a good while we were in the "magic mask" phase where a mask was clinically indicated and protective, but lost that protection the second it left the hospital. We had others panicking and suggesting tens of thousands of deaths in Ireland from this virus, when the evidence and the evidence of the time with it was suggesting much lower fatality rates and heavily clustered in the elderly or those with ill health(the cruise ships where it spread were very obvious indicators of this). We had one academic that was rolled out who kept going on about handwashing and little else to the degree you'd be worrying about OCD. Others stated asymptomatic spread was of no concern, over a month after a cursary google of the various august medical journals were reporting quite the opposite. That's before the debacle of keeping nursing homes open and even encouraging visits. Then we have the kids don't spread this pox, so open the schools Vs oh wait they do and must be vaccinated.

This is not a new approach we all got vaccines from early childhood never questioning what brand was put into us. What changed that's now making people question this well-established process?

Two things: we are more informed, or rather have far more access to information than ever. Of course that leads some down the Anne on Arsebook is an expert y'know route, which isn't good. Secondly these are all new types of vaccines(the ones available in the west). These are not the vaccines we may have gotten as children. The adenovirus types are about the closest, in that they use a "dead" non replicating virus engineered to have covid proteins to illicit an immune response, the mRNA vaccines are entirely new.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117784871#Comment_117784871

Wibbs part of what you say us right. However the only reason the death rate is no low in Ireland is because we locked down longer and harder than virtually any other country in the world. While we never were Zero COVID at times we were not far off it. Not that I advocate ZC as Australia and now NZ are showing it's a flawed concept.

Back to the deaths or excess deaths. Because of our hard lockdown we had excess death rate of about 45/100k of population, the UK rate was 175/100k population with not as hard a lockdown, Lithuania was running at over 220/100k population. ( Figures may be exact as it's off the top of my head). If we had not locked down hard our death rate would run substantially above.

Those figures indicate that without lockdowns we would have seen death rates of above 3% at least maybe hitting 5%. Lockdowns are not sustainable longterm. It's hard to get reliable figures from countries like Brazil and Iran. I am not sure about the type of lock down that was carried out in Lithuania.

The problem with s high non vaccination rate is that supressing the disease will take longer. We are back to the Greek Phalanx, a Greek warrior's shield was not just to protect him but also to protect the warrior to his left. Vaccination hesitantly in other countries will mean COVID even with vacination it will be with us for another 3-5 years in one form or another.

Wibbs

I fear it's going to be in play for longer than that. Coronaviruses are little bastards, very good at evading immune response and before covid 19 there wasn't any vaccine for coronaviruses in humans. There were a couple for farm animals that had very mixed results. Luckily unlike flu they don't mutate as rapidly, but as the variants show they do mutate to some degree. The other issue is that immunity doesn't seem to be lasting long with this pox, either through "natural" immunity after catching it(I personally know someone who caught it twice. Tested and symptomatic in both cases) and as we're starting to see with vaccines. We eliminated smallpox largely because the virus was more stable, asymptomatic cases were rare enough and the vaccines provided long term protection(I doubt we could do it today with something like measles as too many Kens and Karens would be anti vaccinations on social media). The vaccines while reducing infectiousness, particularly with the early variants don't stop it, so the vaccinated can still sometimes pass it on, which seems to be a feature of the Delta variant.

One hope is the recent discovery that those who caught and survived SARS(a much more lethal little bastard) who are vaccinated against covid are showing a much stronger and apparently more stable response and on top of that show a response to a host of other coronaviruses that may make the leap to humans in the future. Its a real pity early research into a SARS vaccine dried up. Well it seemed to have gone away and there was simply no money in it.

Bass Reeves

Really interesting statistical map on excess death in Europe from January 2020- June 2021

Vic987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786059#Comment_117786059

Wibbs, re your point that these are not the vaccines we got as kids. Would you have a preference for the Valneva vaccine over Novavax assuming similar efficacy and side effects?

Wibbs

Those figures indicate that without lockdowns we would have seen death rates of above 3% at least maybe hitting 5%.

Maybe because the medical services would be overwhelmed and serious cases that may have lived with medical attention wouldn't get it. However IMHO I can't see how we'd see near 3 or 5% overall death rates. In the early days of the cruise ships infections we didn't see that and that was a closed system mostly populated by older people as cruise ships tend to be. Consider the stats of Irish people who tested positive for Covid 19 and the numbers who died. 76% of those who died were over 74 years of age and the median age of mortality was 83 years of age. A tragedy for those involved and no mistake and the percentage death rates there were more like 10-15%. Below that group the rates were significantly lower. Below 30 they were absolutely tiny. Below 50 they were very small. Now bear in mind these were people who either were symptomatic enough to go for a test, or were close contacts or were in the smaller group of people who were tested because of their jobs. The actual number of those who caught covid 19 and recovered, or didn't even notice and weren't tested so don't end up in the stats will obviously be higher. Looking around friends and family I'm well ahead as far as being tested goes, two others got tested once on the back of that recent "bug going around"(negative for covid), the rest are all untested so far. Early on in this last year(bloody search not working...) I made a back of a ciggie pack prediction that the end result for covid 19 would be between .5-1% across a population. Significantly worse than seasonal flu yes, but not close to say the 1918 pandemic.

PS I was and am still fully behind the lockdowns and the "flattening the curve" tactic. It most certainly saved lives that wouldn't be with us now and the vaccine roll outs will save many more.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786314#Comment_117786314

Depending on how the trials go and efficacy against covid that looks like a good one for the still hesitant. I want to be clear here; I am not anti vaccination, I am very much on the pro side there. I am pro having the choice of vaccines and if that includes paying for that choice then fine with me. Otherwise you will have more holdouts and more pockets of non vaccinated people.

Vic987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786327#Comment_117786327

Wibbs, and I'm not antivax but probably cynical. In my 20s I worked mostly in Africa so l took everything that was recommended. Although tbh I did no research except on Lariam. I'm a similar age to yourself and fit and healthy. I've looked at the numbers in detail and I don't plan to take either the mRNA or adenovirus vector vaccines. I certainly won't be vaccinating my kids. I encouraged my parents to take it. Based on my limited knowledge of Valneva, I have I would be confortable taking it. Kids again, why? We don't vaccinate older people for childhood illnesses.

One caveat, I won't take anything if they continue with the restrictions on the unvaccinated unless the numbers on illness change.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786365#Comment_117786365

I would suggest that, if a vaccine comes along with a profile you are comfortable taking, which you believe will reduce your risk of getting or being badly affected by covid, then you’re not benefiting anyone by refusing to take it.

I do understand feeling a need to stand against authoritarian and divisive rules on principle. My own position is that, vaccinated or not, I won’t do anything that’s unavailable to unvaccinated people until such rules are removed.

Ultimately I think it’s best to try and separate what should be a reasoned assessment of the available vaccines from what is unavoidably an emotional matter of principle.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786327#Comment_117786327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786424#Comment_117786424

That all very well, but unvaccinated people will not be allow to fly any time in the immediate future. Because of high vaccination rates in Ireland we have more choices than other countries. Some countries where vaccination rates have not hit acceptable rates will probably have to leave the virus Rio through the unprotected, some of these people will be people who got vaccinated bit who the vaccine will not protect due to efficacy rates.

I remember a Union rep one time saying in a situation, ''Principles are grand but they will not put bread on the table''

In this situation they are grand but they will not help improve the situation. Unfortunately the economy cannot wait on principals.

Vic987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786424#Comment_117786424

I'm under pressure from family and friends and my kids who want to be able to go to restaurants with their friends. My oldest is over 18 and its her choice but I sent her FDA documentation to read and she knows my opinion but wants to be allowed into pubs and restaurants with her friends. I recall the concern from other parents before the HPV vaccine because it was new (10 yrs old at that stage) and yet this time they don't even bother to read or understand the hse numbers. For something significantly less dangerous these same parents are delighted to get their kids vaccinated.

My plan was to wait for Valneva so that I could travel next year but the coercion that's being applied will stop me from taking even that. Again as I said unless there's a change in the risk from a mutation.

BTW, all my kids up to now have taken every vaccine that were offered some of which I didn't think they needed.

That’s the thing about principles. If you’re prepared to abandon them for convenience or social acceptability, they were not principles to begin with. Just sort of waffly, pointless things you say when there are no stakes.

That said, I repeat my opinion that medical decisions should not be made on the basis of principles.

Vic987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786505#Comment_117786505

Absolutely, and if I was concerned about covid I would take the vaccine despite the restrictions on the unvaccinated. I suspect these restrictions will get worse and they do impact me. There maybe a point that I have no choice. I know there are people with my profile who get very sick but they are outliers. If I got cancer and there's an mRNA vaccine which potentially will cure me, I'll take it.

Danno

What's the Valneva COVID-19 vaccine, the French shot that's supposed to be 'variant proof'? (theconversation.com)

Never heard of Valneva until now and reading that linked article it does sound very impressive, and to vaccine hesitant folks, it would tick alot of boxes.

Vic987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786568#Comment_117786568

The main attraction to me is that it's a traditional vaccine, inactivated virus so hopefully more similar to natural infection without the illness and yes hopefully it is variant proof. I'm sure there will also be some adverse reactions as there are from all drugs. I expect long term the mRNA vaccines will not cause issues but we don't know that and why take the chance.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786615#Comment_117786615

Why take the chance, because Valneva may not be in mass production until next year. However you have that choice because the rest of us went away to get vaccinated. If the rest of us had not got vaccinated and were selfish gits we be facing another winter of lockdowns.

What really annoys me is if we faced into another 6-8 months of lockdown is the conquences of that. I know of a few tragic deaths that may not have happened if we had managed to get out of this faster. However we got through it as fast as we could. But the conquences if everyone was a selfish gits are unimaginable.

The reason you have a choice of waiting for Valneva or others have a choice of waiting for Novak is because the vast majority f@@ked off and got vaccinated.

Do you think I did not look at risk factors. As I explained to my son who is 23 and was inclined to wait as he felt that he was was very low risk ( young health GAA player) was what about his Grandfather and Grandmother who are both vaccinated but are dependent on efficacy rates and herd immunity to keep them safe.

So f@@k off with ''why take a chance'' it's a selfish choice.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786708#Comment_117786708

Well then, reading between the lines of your post, you don't really have placed much faith in the existing vaccines available to Irish people. If these existing vaccines were worth their salt, anyone of any age would feel free to mingle amongst the possy without fear - however it's becoming clear that this is not the case and a drive against unvaccinated folk in the form of making them pariahs or "selfish gits" as you so succinctly put it is in ignorance of the fact that Pfizer vaccine is starting to fail against delta...

Wibbs

If the rest of us had not got vaccinated and were selfish gits we be facing another winter of lockdowns.

Oh I'd be willing to lay a small wager that we will indeed be facing some sort of lockdown this coming winter. There are already rumblings afoot... And here: Highest recorded cases since January. And this...

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786986#Comment_117786986

Well once again you are reading wrong between the lines. Efficacy will depend on age as well, the younger and healthy you are the higher the rate of your protection, the older and more compromised your health is the lower your protection is.

So as I am vaccinated and of relatively good health I have no issue joining the possy as you put it. I also understand the risk to others especially those who cannot receive a vaccine because if medical reasons, so I wash and sanitize my hands and wear a mask where I should as well as adhering to distancing where possible.

We do not know if phizer is failing against Delta, while antibodies are lowering we are not sure if cell memories will continue protection. There is data showing that AZ ( which was offered to me and I gladly took) if followed by mRNA vaccine gives super antibodies. The reverse may also be true, that mRNA should be followed by adenoviral shots.

So no I have no issue going out, I will try as much as possible to obey the rules but not get hung up on them.

However I have no sympathy for selfish gits who think they should have choices

"However I have no sympathy for selfish gits who think they should have choices"

Whew lad.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117787042#Comment_117787042

"However I have no sympathy for selfish gits who think they should have choices"

Again, your aghast for the remaining 10% who are concerned about what they take takes backseat to your aim. (the other 10% are the crazies).

If the science says we need 90% vaccination to beat Covid, you're rubbing this dog up the wrong way. my body, my choice.

Data out of Israel (where they were vaccinated earlier and with Pfizer) showed a 39% effectiveness against infections with Delta, 41% against symptomatic infection. Still high levels of protection against severe illness and death.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/07/23/pfizer-shot-just-39-effective-against-delta-infection-but-largely-prevents-severe-illness-israel-study-suggests/?sh=1d86c300584f

So sure, enjoy yourself in the pub, but be under no illusion that you are "safe" for others. More than six in ten people vaccinated with Pfizer can contract the virus and pass it on. And get this: a general false sense of high efficacy together with much increased "by the rules" mingling and a higher likelihood of asymptomatic infection makes very high odds that the unvaccinated are the least of our worries, when it comes to spread.

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117787098#Comment_117787098

Don't leave this information out.

Among older Israelis, serious COVID rate six times as high if unvaccinated

https://www.timesofisrael.com/among-older-israelis-serious-covid-rate-six-times-higher-if-unvaccinated/

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117787112#Comment_117787112

I don't think many are arguing against the current level of protection the approved vaccines are offering as of now - what some folk are debating is the level of immunity offered versus dealing with the live virus, Age dependant, it does strike up a considered debate, would you not agree?

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117787135#Comment_117787135

No I wouldn't. Let's deal in facts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117787112#Comment_117787112

Did you miss the "Still high levels of protection against severe illness and death" in literally the post you replied to?

It's not in any way relevant to the point I made, though.