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AP1 and AP2 posts

2

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭ Random sample


    Having the same questions doesn’t necessarily imply equity either. They have read the application forms before deciding on the questions, and they can tailor the questions to the preferred candidate's answers.

    I hate to be so cynical, but having seen it in practice, you can guess who is getting the job by the questions in the interview.


    eg. Heavy emphasis on special education and then the resource teacher gets the job.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭ Icsics


    Not cynical at all Random Sample, more realistic I’d say! I’d go further, these posts are in the gift of the Principal & the interview is a smokescreen to protect them!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,155 ✭✭✭ Bobtheman


    I generally agree with this post. Particularly the idea of farming out work to committees.

    Im not absolutely sure all interviews are fixed but i reckon the majority are.

    There is a lot of waste in these posts.

    Do we really need a wellness post?

    They don't seem inclined to create new posts that deal with discipline or academic improvement?

    You also get unpaid tutors supporting a paid Year head? I have long felt that tutors should be paid a yearly contract.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭ am_zarathustra


    You should be assigning the posts yourselves, based on the circular. Staff meet, decide on the list and then a small group of staff discuss this further to choose what roles are vital. Should be done every 2/3 years. A lot of schools don't seem to be doing this, in fairness we had to push to get it in ours but it's clearly outlined and I'd imagine an inspector would have issue with it not being done.

    Would many on here have taken part in these meetings?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,773 ✭✭✭✭ TheValeyard


    Tutors are a forced wellbeing role in some community schools. Basically 10minutes on your timetable each morning to take attendance. Check journal.

    But this has since been increased to fill out a report card on each student, ring parents about attendance. Lot of staff in my place refuse to do it. Just take the role in the morning and let the paid AP posts (year and deputy year head) sort it out.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,607 ✭✭✭ Grueller


    And that €8k will net you about €3200 after deductions. €60-65 per week a sister that has one tells me. She had an AP11 and is sorry for moving up. Roughly double the money for about 5 times the work she reckons in her school. Year head to 160, awards, and mocks vs just awards beforehand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 448 ✭✭ noplacehere


    Sorry to hear that. If it’s any consolation I got the same feedback from my last post interview I think arrogant was used too. Tried to tell me I did great (I was like you know I have the scores right?), asked if it was my first interview (I was like you interviewed me the last time and I placed second not second last….).


    In hindsight I’ve never been so glad. I’m lucky enough that we aren’t strapped for the extra cash and the workload on posts is now awful. If I’m to get to 40 years or near it I need to pace myself!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,155 ✭✭✭ Bobtheman


    Most interviews are fixed. It's a farce. There has to be a different way



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭ Treppen


    That's really strange. I've heard from 3 other teachers that the word "arrogant" was used after interview. 2 in our school and one in another school.

    Is that supposed to be a nice way of telling you you need to "know your place" and don't be rising above your station?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭ Treppen


    There is another way.

    Don't go for interview.

    Deliver pizza for 2-3 hours a week.

    Maybe summer invigilation.

    You'll get more thanks & more money.



  • Registered Users Posts: 448 ✭✭ noplacehere


    I have never in my life been called arrogant. Far from it. It really hurt my feelings and floored me. I didn’t apply for the posts after that. Now as I’ve said three years later I’m glad I didn’t but… yeah it was not a nice thing to call anyone



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭ am_zarathustra


    Weird comments but I got similar in interview, comments about being confident and people finding that off-putting. Strange comment in my mind to make, an interview is hardly the place to undersell yourself! Seems like an odd idea to have permiated so many schools without it coming from somewhere!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭ am_zarathustra





  • Registered Users Posts: 5,944 ✭✭✭ amacca


    Id say when they say arrogant...they might mean mind of your own and not afraid to say/demonstrate it and you have standards when it comes to what you will and wont do, it doesnt matter if you are correct, it doesnt matter if some of the nonsense is just that, it doesnt matter how sustainable the bullshit is etc ........that imo is not what most managers want, they want someone that will toe the line, get the work done, wont make waves and will probably sacrifice way more time than others...basically the only inadvisable thing they want you to be doing is taking a cannon, loading it up and aiming it squarely at that word between your work and life called balance.

    I'd wager whats wanted in a lot of places is ...........


    someone that wont rock the boat and wont have to be managed and is willing to work like a slave to get ahead and in some instances would climb over their mother for a couple of extra sheckles or their name over the door or some combination of both...and has a proven track record in this (alhough it would be advisable not to go too overboard or be too transparent at this - you can really push the envelope but you have to know the upper limit😀) along with genuinely decent and effective people +a couple of younger ones for a bit of a mix to put the **** up the older ones and put more of a shine on and lend credence to the really quite ludicrous notion that "its anyones ball game if the interview is good enough" etc?


    In a way thus has it ever been when it comes to interviews in an organisation where the candidates are known and have been for years I'd say.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭ Count Hairyfoot


    Asking for a friend. In an ETB what input does the principal have to the awarding of posts. He doesn't take part in the interviews and says it's nothing to do with him but is that correct? Do they really have no say - can they excuse themselves entirely? To me, I work in private sector, that seems insane. Surely they know the candidates better than anyone. My friend has been for a number of interviews in the last couple of years - for AP1 and 2 roles, is frequently told they're first on the panel but never gets the post. It always goes to someone younger they finished ahead of on the panel the previous time. The last feedback was they'd done a great interview, had the right experience and would be great at the role....but they're giving it to someone else and won't discuss why.

    Post edited by Count Hairyfoot on


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,284 ✭✭✭✭ rainbowtrout


    Corruption is widespread when it comes to posts. If a principal wants a particular person or specifically does not want a particular person they can determine the outcome of the interviews even if they are not on the panel. Have had direct experience of that. That person needs to go the appeal route every single time, to create a paper trail to show they are being passed over and highlight to a panel that they have more experience (I'm presuming they do) and make them justify why a person of lesser experience is getting the job each time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭ Leftwaffe


    Sorry I might be mixing something up here but it’s a competence based interview isn’t it? Years and years of experience will help but it has to be the right type of experience and you need to be able to talk the talk in there.

    I got mine with very little teaching experience and ahead of people who were teaching for 20+ years. The experience they had didn’t really fit the four domains and they didn’t interview well.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭ 2011abc




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭ Leftwaffe


    What? I’m not sure what Q E D means but something to do with me proving the previous argument?

    Just because staff are older and have more years experience does not mean they’re competent. I have worked with older teachers who are terrible in an organisational sense.

    The old system based on seniority was a complete joke. Teachers in AP1 and AP2 posts who couldn’t give a toss about them and just managed to pick them up along the way in their career. Seniority was done away with for a reason and rightly so. That’s not a blanket statement for all older teachers, some of them are fantastic. Just so happens some younger teachers are too (not talking about myself).



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭ Leftwaffe


    I’m not denying that people have been wronged, and I’m not denying that the system can’t be rigged. What I’m saying is there are plenty of young teachers who are indeed more capable than those with years and years of experience. This is a fact.

    I know teachers with 20 years experience that wouldnt organise a piss-up in a brewery, is it fair then that they should get a head start in an interview? We all know the answer.

    People will be wronged in interviews, young or old. The current system is the fairest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭ am_zarathustra


    There are also older staff who've no interest in management. They are happy teaching. AP1s and 2s should be used as a way to train management in schools so we end up with more broadly skilled DPs and Ps in the future and that seems to be the aim. I got a post above older staff 2nd time round, but first time interviewing was beaten by someone who had much more experience and deservedly this meant they beat me. The system is fair if it's run honestly, the issue isn't the system but the implementation. I've seen plenty of this too unfortunately, doesn't help the school if the management team can't handle their roles.


    The biggest issue I have is the lack of credence again given to actual teaching. It makes it easier for people in roles like BFL and guidance to pad their cvs



  • Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭ Random sample


    That’s a fair point actually. Ap1’s in my school are all filled by people who have no interest in senior management so when we have vacancies at that level it is outsiders or people with no experience who get them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭ Count Hairyfoot


    It is supposed to be competency based -That's why I asked the question I did. My friend was first on the panel for a number of AP1 posts but the panel seems to mean nothing. He then interviewed for one of multiple AP2 posts and only made the panel again - behind, always younger, people he'd finished ahead off the last 3 times for a higher post. There's absolutely no consistency in the people interviewing or what they seem to want. The only consistency is the "nothing to do with me" look from the principal. That's why, to me as an outsider, it doesn't just seem unbelievable that a principal wouldn't have a hand in picking what should be his team, I actually don't believe him when he says it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭ Random sample


    i don’t understand what you mean by the panel. My school advertise when their is a vacancy and the vacancy is filled. There is never a panel. I think there used to be a panel when there were temporary posts cropping up for maternity leaves or sick leaves, but now, there are new interviews whenever there are vacancies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,284 ✭✭✭✭ rainbowtrout


    It still occurs. Posts were advertised in my school before Christmas and the line is on the form 'A panel will be formed for any acting up posts that may arise during the school year', or words to that effect.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭ gaiscioch


    Now, I'm confused. I was told in effect to be more assertive/confident/cocky. I went for my first AP1 interview recently, more for the experience and to signal to the principal that I was, eh, "hungry" and to bear me in mind for positions. I didn't get it and when I spoke to one of the external principals on the panel for feedback, he gave out to me for not selling myself.

    I explained that I didn't want to be blowing my trumpet because I assumed the principal, who was on the panel, would tell the rest of them. But this, he made very, very clear, was a wrong assumption because unless you say it in the interview itself they can't mark you as 100% of the marks go for what you say in the interview. He said if the principal did say anything in defence of a candidate the other interviewers would bring him up on his partiality. Every day's a school day!

    It was well-worth doing the interview and getting that feedback even if I had to wear a suit. I applied for an AP2 the following week and got that and to be honest that suits my situation at the moment better.



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