AP1 and AP2 posts

Elizam425

Hi all,

I have a few points in this post so bear with me.... ;)

I was wondering if there are any sample application form online for an AP1 and AP2 post? There may be some posts coming up in my school and want to start the application form. I understand that the application form will follow the 4 domains from the LAOS document.

Are there any professionals out there who help with the application form and interview process?

Finally, any sample questions/tips or tricks?!

Thanks in advance!

LW2018

The form for AP1 and AP2 are both the same. First few sections deal with personal information (degree / post in school / CPD / roles/responsibilities/functions you’ve been involved with in school… these just need to be listed.

Then you’re into the main part whereby you have to provide examples of your leadership and management under the 4 domains (Leading Teaching and Learning, Managing the Organisation, Leading School Development and Developing Leadership Capacity). You can only use your personal example twice so read the examples of highly effective practice and work out where they best suit. Make use of the key buzz words (lead, communicate, enable, inspire, encourage, demonstrate, encompass, unlock leadership potential, support, listen, empower etc…). Say what you did and why it was needed and how it was effective and how you knew it was… and don’t be afraid to say what could have been better (being reflective). The form, from experience, takes longer than you may think… give it time! It’s the first impression. The same questions will be asked to all candidates as you’re interviewing for a position of leadership rather than a specific role.

There are a few threads on here with sample questions etc. Hard to describe interviews really but questions about the needs and priorities of a school tend to be asked / how you know students are learning / scenarios and how you’d be able to deal with them and why / an initiative you brought in that didn’t work and when you knew it wasn’t working and what you did about that / leading people who are reluctant to change / promoting bits and pieces around the school or within your subject.

I think the best experience is going for them and showing that you are interested. Ask for feedback regardless of success or not as this will help going forward in all cases. A point of feedback I received after getting an AP1 position really stood to me this year.

Elizam425

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117767620#Comment_117767620

Yes, I've heard the form can take some time so was wondering if there were any application forms online so I could get started on it.

Yes, I know but nerves keep putting me off, even though I've done a Management and Leadership course, so was hoping there may be someone out there who could coach me through the process.

Thank you so much for your advice and feedback and congratulations on the AP1 position.

am_zarathustra

Try sitting down and making a lost of everything you've done in the school first, the assign each to a domain, many will fit in more than one but hone on two good examples from each domain. Marks are equally awarded across the 4 so balance is important, being deadly at one but neglecting another can cost you the interview. This is the bulk of the application, I think a max of 400 words in each domain was the last limit

Be honest about your flaws, all members of leadership have them so it's not a sign of weakness, awareness is key.

As above be enthusiastic, it's a hard job on top of teaching, you'd want to start out energetic!

Exactly as above too, I asked for feedback after my first interview, I took it seriously and worked on the domain that let me down and was successful the second time round. A willingness to take feedback, adapt and change is vital in anyone hoping to get things done in a school.

And good luck!

Bobtheman

Dont apply. Easier ways to make money and most of the posts today are bullshit.

Don't sat you were not warned

ethical

Be warned indeed!

Some excellent candidates never get the Post due to the chronic cronyism,nepotism etc. Steer clear of some school governing bodies! They will not like it if you step on their toes and show them up for what they are and will undoubtedly hold it against you at interview.The interview score and appeals score will be massaged so as not to make them look anything but following procedure! Also be very aware of positions that come with the tag "equal opportunity employer" or "Canvassing will disqualify"

Best of luck with your application but do not despair if at first you do not succeed,I did'nt but got there in the end.I laughed when I got my "score" from the Cowboy,I mean Chairman of the Interview Committee first time around as he didnt have a fcuking clue and just pulled some figures out of his ar*e. I stood by my principles and never veered off what I thought to be the correct way of doing things and I was rewarded when I was lucky enough to meet an interview panel that saw me for what I was and had similar beliefs and were impressed by my achievements against all the odds.

As some contributors say there are easier ways of making money ,if that is what you want ! Posts can be rewarding but sometimes do not do what thet were set out to do.Bear in mind now also that what you do for the first year or two may change totally if there is a Post Review (which there is supposed to be regularly),something that can work in your favour also. You will find though that you will not make much/any money out of it! Great satisfaction though if you get a nice position! Good luck!

Bobtheman

It's still my opinion that the principal will decide who he or she wants. This might vary in some schools but by and large I think it holds sway. The interview panel is a smoke screen

I don't know the situation in an ETB. I'm talking secondary sector.

I have seen some bizzare appointments in my own school and even more bizzare posts.

To be fair a lot of good work gets done and it maximises your 9-4 earnings.

Though it amazes me how you can pay someone 8k extra a year and they still clock out at 4pm.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845383#Comment_117845383

Nothing wrong with clocking out at 4pm and going home to your family, plenty of managers in the private sector can earn over 100k and clock in and out using effective time management.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845383#Comment_117845383

They get 4 hours off their timetable (in ETB sector anyway), so work for the post can be done in that time. Some will use their free classes, some will do the work at home in the evenings depending on the nature of the job.

But you are correct on the panel being a smokescreen. Posts are coming up in my school in the next couple of months and I would say I have a better chance of winning the Euromillions than getting an A post. Just this week the principal emailed me to say that he's not sure that he can let me go on the inservice for my subject run by the PDST because I would be missing too much time. To clarify, this is for a pilot subject that he wanted brought in this year and asked me to teach. I know how nuts this all sounds.

Bobtheman

Hi rainbow it doesn't sound nuts at all. In the secondary sector no time allowance which is an anonomly.

You are right a lot of post holders do work at home or during their classes. Free and non free

You should be allowed go to an in service. That's a disgrace. But principals often say one thing about teaching and learning and do another.

What really gets me over posts is the waste of some of them. Mindfulness and excessive posts for IT even though when you have an issue.. It's an external guy they get in.

Discipline seems off the agenda completely. I recall about 15 years ago it was a big issue with the Asti and hanafin made some moves. Now it's all magically gone.

am_zarathustra

Discipline does seem to be gone, even under another guise like behavior management ect. We also have a lot of posts that are suspiciously close to the person's actual job and it's hard to see where the spec of their normal job (non teaching roles) ends and their post duties begins. But then the teacher with a full Irish timetable, probably without enough contact hours with each class will always struggle to do the "extra" needed to get a post despite probably being more valuable to education in the school.

Tends to be a lot clearer with teaching staff when they are doing extra! I would like to see the breakdown of people with full teaching hours, no non teaching roles, who are successful in interview. Even if the interview isn't fixed, I'd imagine in a lot of schools you could work out who was being tipped for the next posts based on their timetables!

Bobtheman

Resource teachers also have an advantage as they can better manage doing extra within their timetable.

To be fair I doubt it's much different in the private sector. Favorites getting a job.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848891#Comment_117848891

Why ? Cos resource teachers have an easy job and don't do 'real' teaching like the big boys do??

BTW it's not called resource anymore.

am_zarathustra

In fairness, LS is generally a tough role, very paperwork heavy too. There are other more opaque roles I'd have questions about. There are also fairly often a few teachers on 16/17 hours with no explanation as to why

Bobtheman

Call it whatever you like. You know what it is. Most teachers have a mix of normal plus resource classes but yes I think it's easier and a lot of resource teachers say so.

If you are scheduled to have one kid then while that kid is doing work it frees you up to do other stuff like advance your career.

I do know it's moved to smaller groups.

It can be boring I admit that but nobody will convince me its as tough as 25 odd kids in a normal classroom.

It is real teaching but it's easier. I never said it wasn't teaching

History Queen

Hi all, I have a post interview later this week, AP1. Definitely an underdog going in to it but want to do myself justice at least. Any hints/tips greatfully received!

lulublue22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118133183#Comment_118133183

List everything you have done todate. Put each one into one of the four domains. Within the 4 domains are key targets link what you have done to as many targets as you can - each target has what I would call buzz words effective communication etc practice your answers using the buzz words. I used a little card for each domain ie leading teaching and learning - listed anything that would fit in there and then practised answers using buzz words - professional development , effective communication , collaboration etc etc

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135939#Comment_118135939

That's really practical, thank you!

Random sample

Has anyone got a good general answer on what would you do differently, when talking about a team project that has worked well? I don’t want to just say we were happy with the outcome and I’d do it the same again.

am_zarathustra

Depends on the type of project, maybe setting clearer objectives, clear roles and responsibilities, having stricter timelines on actions, meeting for less time but more often? They are the standard ways to make teamwork more effective. I'd also be fairly honest about how you behave in group settings, it's hard to modulate your own desire or lack of to get something done. My biggest would be just doing all the work, then I knoww it's done but that's not actually helpful to the running of a school because I could be gone in the morning and then none of those initiatives would continue.

2011abc

Leading Learning and Teaching

Managing the school

Leading Development

Developing leadership

are the four headings but you already prob knew that .

Presumably bought from this individual

https://www.teachertoolkit.co.uk/about/

who was touting them years ago

You need two or three examples of what YOU have done for each .Stick them in your phone notes and memorise them inside out , reading them constantly when on the toilet ,in the car park etc etc .You WILL forget them under pressure if not learned inside out!

Key themes might be 'consulted with students and staff' /committees you were on /X years wide range of experiences /a time you collated data and acted on it /work with gifted and talented or SEN students /an outcome you delivered /strategy you devised /some reconcilatory event

Yep they love 'gathered info /data -consulted-devised strategy-implemented it '

Feel free to ignore above as I have gracefully opted out of the 'post' rat race as I see my former STUDENTS promoted above me .

ethical

Its very unfortunate that Teaching & Education has turned into a whole cart load of buzzwords (which ,lets us face it,damn all people know what they mean! and the various JCT days do little to explain them either).

Reading through all the 'advice' given here in this thread brings me to tears.

Its come to a stage now that us teachers are feeding the habit by lowering ourselves to the bottom rung of the ladder by part taking in the Posts Interview Charade where the outcome is known before the Post is even advertised.Vladimir Putin would be very proud of the Old Cronies hanging on in the Interview Room and squeezing the applicants while same Cronies gather their One 4 All Vouchers,envelopes etc. for their troubles of sitting on Interview Panel.

Its a shame that there is fcuk all being done to aid the students.The race to the bottom is gathering pace but who cares!

Has anyone noticed the 'new thing' when a Post Holder is successful? The new incumbent usually forms a Committee and delegates the work, of course, while holding onto the €10K all for themselves.This new practice is rife throughout the country but not all teachers have cottoned on to it.

The amount of money WASTED in education in Ireland is criminal,funds are not feeding down to the students but is ring fenced for the Golden Circle.

No one wants to hear this though at Staff Meetings and unfortunately with no face to face staff Meetings over the past 2 years things have got ultimately worse.

It is hard to blame the young teachers attitude really as they jump all over each other to try and get a few euro more as they were stuck on very few hours for years before they managed to get a CID. The whole recruitment process needs a shake up but it will never happen as there are too many Leeches making a serious living out of the way it presently is,(you know the type,the segmented parasites that prey on the system and are encouraged to do so by their (former) employers).

Icsics

Brilliant post ethical, I agree with every word. It is indeed a race to the bottom, now aided by ‘middle management’ who can talk the talk at ‘interview’ & are pals with the Principal. Our regular staff meetings are few & far between….but there is a ‘management meeting’ timetabled weekly for these ‘managers’ who decide what the rest of us will do….! Needless to say, morale is on the floor

History Queen

Just to update, I was unsuccessful. Feedback given was that I came across as arrogant, feedback from my last interview was that I didn't seem confident. Hard to know what way to take that. Obviously i can't "talk the talk", not in the way they want me to anyway.

Random sample

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118165997#Comment_118165997

sorry to hear that. If it’s any consolation I can not talk the talk either. In the days after my interview I had a steady stream of realisations about the questions I was asked.

its disheartening, in the average school these things don’t come up very often. I feel I will have forgotten any lessons I have learned by the time it comes up again. The current cohort of post holders in my school are early 50s, and I don’t think any have aspirations towards senior management, so there won’t be posts again for a long time and I feel there will be a lot more competent younger staff going for them then too.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118165997#Comment_118165997

Sorry to hear that, honestly.... after a few days of reflection you'll take it as a blessing in disguise.

Similar happened although I was lucky enough to know it was a foregone conclusion when the successful candidate got different questions and was being prepped well by other APs. Now I'm delighted I can just go in and teach ,no more, no less. No lunchtime meetings and delegating down.

Grueller

40% paye, 6.5% superannuation, 4.5% prsi, either 4.5% or 8% USC (dependent on position on payscale) and 10% ASC.

That's either 65.5% or 69% in deductions.

€8520 x 34.5% = €2939

€2939 left in your hand. Less than €60 per week. I know that there are 4 hours off also but jaysus that is a joke. With the wrong principal that could be worse than slavery. I can do one relief milking per week and pocket €50 cash for 2 hours.

Icsics

History Queen, like the others said, when the dust settles you’ll see this as a blessing. Posts are just not worth the hassle. We have a P & DP who never had a post, just straight in to senior mgt, but that’s another story!

lulublue22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118165997#Comment_118165997

Not sure that qualifies as feedback ???? IMO that’s someone being a jackass - feedback in my book would be in terms of areas ( within the domain) that need some work🤷‍♀️ One persons arrogance is another’s assertiveness. If that’s the carry on - not confident enough / too arrogant you are better off not having to work with them. Feckin cheek really.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118166399#Comment_118166399

That was grounds for an appeal straight away. All candidates are supposed to get the same questions.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118182842#Comment_118182842

Naaa I'm grand, glad I didn't get it now. I think we know the way appeals go when you can't prove anything.

Random sample

Having the same questions doesn’t necessarily imply equity either. They have read the application forms before deciding on the questions, and they can tailor the questions to the preferred candidate's answers.

I hate to be so cynical, but having seen it in practice, you can guess who is getting the job by the questions in the interview.

eg. Heavy emphasis on special education and then the resource teacher gets the job.

Icsics

Not cynical at all Random Sample, more realistic I’d say! I’d go further, these posts are in the gift of the Principal & the interview is a smokescreen to protect them!

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150667#Comment_118150667

I generally agree with this post. Particularly the idea of farming out work to committees.

Im not absolutely sure all interviews are fixed but i reckon the majority are.

There is a lot of waste in these posts.

Do we really need a wellness post?

They don't seem inclined to create new posts that deal with discipline or academic improvement?

You also get unpaid tutors supporting a paid Year head? I have long felt that tutors should be paid a yearly contract.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454368#Comment_118454368

You should be assigning the posts yourselves, based on the circular. Staff meet, decide on the list and then a small group of staff discuss this further to choose what roles are vital. Should be done every 2/3 years. A lot of schools don't seem to be doing this, in fairness we had to push to get it in ours but it's clearly outlined and I'd imagine an inspector would have issue with it not being done.

Would many on here have taken part in these meetings?

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454368#Comment_118454368

Tutors are a forced wellbeing role in some community schools. Basically 10minutes on your timetable each morning to take attendance. Check journal.

But this has since been increased to fill out a report card on each student, ring parents about attendance. Lot of staff in my place refuse to do it. Just take the role in the morning and let the paid AP posts (year and deputy year head) sort it out.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118457788#Comment_118457788

Getting tutors to do the phoning home is a bit of a tricky one. I wouldn't mind getting involved to support a student in times of need or if there was a sudden change in character or persistent absence. But that's relatively rare in our school.

I could imagine a tutor being run ragged in other schools , but to introduce paperwork into the mix is a bit of an ask.

Really though at every level everyone is being taken for granted.

Just thinking about it the other day , a principal on 100k sounds like a lot but really any managerial position with up to 40 staff reporting into you and dealing with 500+ other customers.... and their parents.

I saw an article in the journal.ie about a software engineer on €233k . Now, Leaving aside the level of unique skills he has, I was most struck by the "fair play to him" comments strewn through the comments. https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/how-i-spend-my-money-51-5641046-Jan2022/

compare that with the previous experience of a teacher on €40k and commenters were making out she was robbing their "taxpayer money" out of their pockets.

AP1 post with an extra 8k per year is really a pittance when you consider it's the only promotion allowable to bring you to the peek of your career (apart from becoming the Minister for Education lol!).

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458349#Comment_118458349

And that €8k will net you about €3200 after deductions. €60-65 per week a sister that has one tells me. She had an AP11 and is sorry for moving up. Roughly double the money for about 5 times the work she reckons in her school. Year head to 160, awards, and mocks vs just awards beforehand.

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118459289#Comment_118459289

We had a number of AP1 & AP2 posts going up last year and this year because of a large number of retirements and huge increase in student numbers. Im talking at least five AP1 and 8-9 AP2. Im in the teaching game a fair while now and without tooting my horn too much I know I could have nabbed a role. Lot of experience, lot of extra activities and committees on boards in my time in the school, and im pretty good at talking sh1te :P Its a bit strange seeing much younger staff take posts and positions higher than you, but I wish them all the best. I have made a conscious decision, that as a father to young children, im putting more value into my free time to spend with them rather than extra money. I genuinely feel its the right decision for now. Maybe when they get older, i may look again at postings. But for now, I do my bit, teach my classes. Be there and raise my own kids. Make memories.

noplacehere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118165997#Comment_118165997

Sorry to hear that. If it’s any consolation I got the same feedback from my last post interview I think arrogant was used too. Tried to tell me I did great (I was like you know I have the scores right?), asked if it was my first interview (I was like you interviewed me the last time and I placed second not second last….).

In hindsight I’ve never been so glad. I’m lucky enough that we aren’t strapped for the extra cash and the workload on posts is now awful. If I’m to get to 40 years or near it I need to pace myself!

Bobtheman

Most interviews are fixed. It's a farce. There has to be a different way

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543451#Comment_118543451

That's really strange. I've heard from 3 other teachers that the word "arrogant" was used after interview. 2 in our school and one in another school.

Is that supposed to be a nice way of telling you you need to "know your place" and don't be rising above your station?

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546683#Comment_118546683

There is another way.

Don't go for interview.

Deliver pizza for 2-3 hours a week.

Maybe summer invigilation.

You'll get more thanks & more money.

noplacehere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546958#Comment_118546958

I have never in my life been called arrogant. Far from it. It really hurt my feelings and floored me. I didn’t apply for the posts after that. Now as I’ve said three years later I’m glad I didn’t but… yeah it was not a nice thing to call anyone

am_zarathustra

Weird comments but I got similar in interview, comments about being confident and people finding that off-putting. Strange comment in my mind to make, an interview is hardly the place to undersell yourself! Seems like an odd idea to have permiated so many schools without it coming from somewhere!

am_zarathustra

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547877#Comment_118547877

Probably at some dumbass management course . If you wish to turn an applicant down without fear of an appeal just use the words arrogant or over-confident.

How childish and unprofessional is that to be putting down someone's confidence in a profession which is all about presenting yourself to people.

At this stage if you're looking around at the other interview applicants and you don't know who the sucker is... then it's you.

amacca

Id say when they say arrogant...they might mean mind of your own and not afraid to say/demonstrate it and you have standards when it comes to what you will and wont do, it doesnt matter if you are correct, it doesnt matter if some of the nonsense is just that, it doesnt matter how sustainable the bullshit is etc ........that imo is not what most managers want, they want someone that will toe the line, get the work done, wont make waves and will probably sacrifice way more time than others...basically the only inadvisable thing they want you to be doing is taking a cannon, loading it up and aiming it squarely at that word between your work and life called balance.

I'd wager whats wanted in a lot of places is ...........

someone that wont rock the boat and wont have to be managed and is willing to work like a slave to get ahead and in some instances would climb over their mother for a couple of extra sheckles or their name over the door or some combination of both...and has a proven track record in this (alhough it would be advisable not to go too overboard or be too transparent at this - you can really push the envelope but you have to know the upper limit😀) along with genuinely decent and effective people +a couple of younger ones for a bit of a mix to put the **** up the older ones and put more of a shine on and lend credence to the really quite ludicrous notion that "its anyones ball game if the interview is good enough" etc?

In a way thus has it ever been when it comes to interviews in an organisation where the candidates are known and have been for years I'd say.

Count Hairyfoot

Asking for a friend. In an ETB what input does the principal have to the awarding of posts. He doesn't take part in the interviews and says it's nothing to do with him but is that correct? Do they really have no say - can they excuse themselves entirely? To me, I work in private sector, that seems insane. Surely they know the candidates better than anyone. My friend has been for a number of interviews in the last couple of years - for AP1 and 2 roles, is frequently told they're first on the panel but never gets the post. It always goes to someone younger they finished ahead of on the panel the previous time. The last feedback was they'd done a great interview, had the right experience and would be great at the role....but they're giving it to someone else and won't discuss why.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118584279#Comment_118584279

Corruption is widespread when it comes to posts. If a principal wants a particular person or specifically does not want a particular person they can determine the outcome of the interviews even if they are not on the panel. Have had direct experience of that. That person needs to go the appeal route every single time, to create a paper trail to show they are being passed over and highlight to a panel that they have more experience (I'm presuming they do) and make them justify why a person of lesser experience is getting the job each time.

Leftwaffe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588810#Comment_118588810

Sorry I might be mixing something up here but it’s a competence based interview isn’t it? Years and years of experience will help but it has to be the right type of experience and you need to be able to talk the talk in there.

I got mine with very little teaching experience and ahead of people who were teaching for 20+ years. The experience they had didn’t really fit the four domains and they didn’t interview well.