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Adding Hunting to a Clay Shooting License

  • 16-08-2021 11:29am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭ spray____
    Registered User


    Apologies if this is covered somewhere. I think I saw it a while ago, but can't for the life of me find it now.

    I have a 12 gauge I licensed a few years back for clays at the local gun club where I'm a member. Recently, I've also joined a hunting club so I can hunt pheasants. I've heard different things from different people, but the potential problem as I understand it, is that my license is for clays only. Since I did not apply for hunting, my license does not cover me for that use.

    Is there an official (or at least a standard) way of adding a use? I've been told by some friends to send a polite but firm letter to someone (superintendent?) stating that I'm planning on using it for hunting, and unless I hear otherwise I'll assume they're fine with that, but I'm not sure how correct this is.



Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass
    Moderator


    The whole polite but firm thing is not a bad idea, but the this bit:

    stating that I'm planning on using it for hunting, and unless I hear otherwise I'll assume they're fine with that

    ............. may not work out the way you think. If the Super doesn't grant the change and you were to go ahead and use it because you were not informed either at all or in a timely manner you are still breaking the conditions of your license and so still in the excrement.


    You could use an FCA2. They are used to amend changed or incorrect details of a firearm license. There is a section below the name and address portion in section 1 (amendment) where it has "old club" details on the left and new club club details on the right. I'd leave the left (old details) blank and then fill in the details of the club on the right side (new details). Then in the "Reason for Amendment" bit below this simply write that you got the license based on clay shooting, have since joined a gun club/game club and wish for PULSE/your license to be amended to allow for this type of shooting.

    Link to FCA2:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭ meathstevie
    Registered User


    I was always under the impression that once a firearms certificate was issued a firearm could be used for all legally permitted activities with that type of firearm. For example if you applied for a licence for an over and under and ticked hunting and pest control and subsequently got the licence there was no problem at all taking it to for example Courtlough and shoot a few rounds of sporting clays with it.

    I stand to be corrected on that opinion though.

    Back in the day with the old licences the only exception I was aware of was the “farmers licence”; pest control and stock protection on own farm only.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass
    Moderator


    Meathstevie - ............ an over and under and ticked hunting and pest control and subsequently got the licence there was no problem at all taking it to for example Courtlough and shoot a few rounds of sporting clays with it.

    You could, yes.


    Clay shooting is not classed as target shooting. On the FCA1 in section 4.2 you have three options which are intended to cover all uses for all types of firearms so there will be some confusion and "crossover". If the OP had ticked "Other" in section 4.2 he could have shot pests/vermin and done clay shooting (as they are specifically listed under "other") without the need to amend his reason for the license/firearm. However if you tick target shooting, and yes while clay shooting is not legally target shooting some still tick it, you are applying for the license for only target shooting. The better option would have been to tick "Other", or as I do tick as many as is appropriate and that I can provide proof for.


    Same situation if you tick "Hunting". Hunting is meant as the hunting of wild game during the appropiate seasons. For a shotgun that is all covered under your firearms license (bar a few exceptions like foreshore, etc). SO no hunting licenses needed as with a rifle and deer. However as you only ticked hunting you did not apply with an intent to shoot clays, pests, vermin, etc. So in this case, with shotguns, I tick hunting, targets, and pests then write a short (2 or three lines) explanation for the three reasons. When the license is granted you're covered for all bases.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭ JP22
    Registered User


    Great info Cass.

    Just checked my last application as I couldnt remember. All fine, all boxes ticked Sec 4.2. 😁

    Happy days.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭ meathstevie
    Registered User


    Pretty the much the same as my approach on an application form. Cover all bases, it doesn’t matter if you don’t do any target shooting with your hunting rifle or the other way around but all boxes are ticked.

    I could imagine the Gardai don’t care too much if you’re shooting deer or steel plates with your .308 as long as both are done legally.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass
    Moderator


    Pretty much with just one caveat. Make sure you can provide the proof necessary. For example ticking target shooting when applying for a rifle, unlike a shotgun, requires proof of membership to an authorised range. Don't tick target shooting, for a rifle, unless you're a member of a range.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,388 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor
    Registered User


    I agree woth Cass that the "unless I hear otherwise, I assume i'm fine" approach is not the best way or even a good way to go about it. It's one thing if the Guards if you advice, that might stand as evidence. But you but you can't use the lack of opposing advice to confirm the opposite. The Guards are not there to dispense free legal advice.

    That is my understanding also.

    Hi Cass, I definitely agree that the FCA2 route is the best cover you ass option. But I do question if it is required.

    The application form and the license are do different documents. The tickbox on the form outlines the reason you are applying, and the powers that be make a decision based on that and the criteria. But once the issue you a license, you have a license. And unless that license has a restriction or disclaimer on it that limits its function, then you are covered for the full spectrum that a license can be issue for.

    Now, I don't hold a target only license, maybe that are resticted with a code. Similar to how a person with glasses, or passed in an automatic car has a restriction noted on their license. Is that the case?

    If Johnny has a rifle for deer hunting, and only ticked hunting as thats all he did. One day he joins a range, becomes a full member and decides to take up target shooting. My view is that just because now meet the criteria for target only, that he is not obliged to update his certificate with is info until he needs to renew. Open to correct in regards to certain types. But that's my understand of the Irish system. (in other locations, the reason becomes registered on the license)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass
    Moderator


    Mellor - I definitely agree that the FCA2 route is the best cover you ass option. But I do question if it is required

    Required, no. Best option, probably. It was one of the two functions of the FCA2 to amend or cancel a license. You could go into your Garda station, ask the FO to change it on PULSE, and they may do it for you. You could write a letter, or make a phone call asking the same and it may be done. I only mention the FCA2 as its a recorded document that I imagine would be filed with the rest of your paperwork.

    Mellor - But once the issue you a license, you have a license. And unless that license has a restriction or disclaimer on it that limits its function, then you are covered for the full spectrum that a license can be issue for.

    Section 4(2) of the Principal act outlines the conditions for the grant of a firearms license. In short the issuing person will only grant the license if they are satisified that you intend to use it for the purpose you applied for it. It also specifically names target shooting and being a member of a range, having the requisite hunting licenses, etc. It also covers any conditions physically listed on your grant form (as nothing is marked on the actual license). So if you tick hunting, then later go out and start target shooting, but did not tick target shooting, then it could be argued that you were only granted the license for hunting and the target shooting is outside the conditions of the granting of your license.


    While most licenses are issued without any conditions on the grant letter this does NOT mean that you are free to do what you please with the firearm. It simply means the issuing person has granted the license for the purpose you applied for it with no additional or exceptional conditions attached. Now that is my take on all this and its somewhat supported by section 4, and the boxes to be ticked on the FCA1 to declare you intent with the firearm, however I'm open to a different interpretation or rebuttal if anyone has other legislation which contradicts this.

    Mellor - Now, I don't hold a target only license, maybe that are resticted with a code. Similar to how a person with glasses, or passed in an automatic car has a restriction noted on their license. Is that the case?

    If I'm reading this right you are asking about an identifying mark/marker on the license which denotes the conditions or limitations of a license based on what was applied for? If so then no. The only other marking on a license to denote something is added is an "S" for the authorisation for a suppressor. Not even NV is printed on the licenses from what I've been told by those with such authorisation. So a license is effectively only good to identify the person, their address, the serial number, caliber and certificate number of the gun. Not what the license was granted for (hunting/targets/clays/pest shooting/deer shooting, etc).


    Now the other side of this is enforcement. Its, I won't say non existant, but other than deer hunters being stopped by NPWS rangers, I know of few if any actual enforcement or inspection "in the field" of licenses. It would be a little difficult even if An Gardaí wished to do so as the details of the conditions of the grant of the license are on PULSE only and not the license so if the Garda wanted to know more than the above listed details which are on a license they would have to radio back to the station for a manual check.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,388 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor
    Registered User


    I fully understand the logic you are using. But I have seen any legislation that states that.

    Any conditions for the grant apply to the grant, not the ongoing use. They need to ensure that you meet the one of the required reasons and conditions to own a gun. If you do, you are granted a license.

    There’s no law that I’m aware of that says in order to hunt/target shoot you need to have a license approved/conditioned as such. Or that if you meet further conditions you need to reapply to utilise them.

    if that is the intention, which might make sense I guess, it needs to be explicit in law imo.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass
    Moderator


    Mellor - But I have seen any legislation that states that.

    I listed the section above so not sure what else you want.

    Mellor - Any conditions for the grant apply to the grant, not the ongoing use.

    The grant is not a license, a license is a license. The grant is the notification of intent to issue a license based on the details outlined in your application, and upon the payment of the fee. If you apply for a license for a firearm for the reasons you outlined then use it for something else entirely, without having declared your intent, then its a fraudulent application and the license can be revoked if it is not already void.

    Extreme example would be getting a rifle license and citing target shooting. Then going out deer hunting. You haven't provided details of the land, your suitability, experience, etc. to An Gardaí to show your competent/suitable to have a license for such a purpose. Now I'm not claiming they'll [AGS] do an indepth background check, but the reasons for requiring the firearm/license will be recorded on PULSE and if you act outside of the original reason(s) for granting the license then you are acting outside the conditions of the license, hence acting illegally.

    Mellor - There’s no law that I’m aware of that says in order to hunt/target shoot you need to have a license approved/conditioned as such.

    Again, I mentioned it above. Section 4 of the principal act. It specifically says:

    Section 4(1) - 4. — (1) An issuing person shall not grant a firearm certificate unless he or she is satisfied that the applicant complies with the conditions referred to in subsection (2) and will continue to comply with them during the currency of the certificate.

    The issuing person won't grant the license unless the they are satisifed the person (licensee) complies with and abides by the conditions set out in section 4 during the course of the life of the license. Section 4(2) sets out a whole range of reasons and conditions such as, but not limited to:

    • ...... has a good reason for requiring the firearm
    • ...... where the firearm is a rifle or pistol to be used for target shooting, is a member of an authorised rifle or pistol club
    • ...... complies with such other conditions (if any) specified in the firearm certificate, including any such conditions to be complied with before a specified date as the issuing person considers necessary 

    Mellor - if that is the intention, which might make sense I guess, it needs to be explicit in law imo.

    It is, as above. If you want it to be more elaborate then I'd agree with you, but the purpose of the "vagueness" is to allow for both discretion and leeway. Not necessarily always to our favour.


    As I said above the FCA2 is not a mandated or only option. I'd be surprised if the OP doesn't just walk into his local station, tell the FO he wants to hunt, and the FO says lash away. Does it make it legal right? Not sure. Would I like to have my arse covered by going the FCA2 route, absolutely.

    At the risk of repeating myself, this is why I apply for everything. When granted the license I'm covered to pursue anything I want regardless of whether I do or not.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,388 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor
    Registered User


    [quote]Cass - I listed the section above so not sure what else you want. [/quote]

    The section of the law, any section of the law, that backs up what you are claiming. As section 4 does not.

    I siad in my first reply that its the smart cover your ass thing to do. But that doesn't make it a legal requirement. I don't think we should be making up laws on our own.

    [quote]Cass - The grant is not a license, a license is a license. The grant is the notification of intent to issue a license based on the details outlined in your application, and upon the payment of the fee. If you apply for a license for a firearm for the reasons you outlined then use it for something else entirely, without having declared your intent, then its a fraudulent application and the license can be revoked if it is not already void.[/quote]

    This is wrong. Intent cannot apply retrospectively. That's just basic legal terms.

    The application is made at a point in time. You state your true intentions at that point in time. If, after a length of time, you add additional interests. Those interests do not make your the statement on you application untrue. A bit ridiculous to claim so.

    [quote]Extreme example would be getting a rifle license and citing target shooting. Then going out deer hunting. You haven't provided details of the land, your suitability, experience, etc. to An Gardaí to show your competent/suitable to have a license for such a purpose. Now I'm not claiming they'll [AGS] do an indepth background check, but the reasons for requiring the firearm/license will be recorded on PULSE and if you act outside of the original reason(s) for granting the license then you are acting outside the conditions of the license, hence acting illegally.[/quote]

    Permission to shoot deer on land is a legal requirement in itself, not a licensing issue. All other legal requirement to shoot deer apply regardless of whether you put it on your application. I don't believe competency that require Garda approval. As everyone was a beginner once.

    [quote]Section 4(1) - 4. — (1) An issuing person shall not grant a firearm certificate unless he or she is satisfied that the applicant complies with the conditions referred to in subsection (2) and will continue to comply with them during the currency of the certificate.[/quote]

    Where have I suggested anyone could not continue to comply with them?

    If somebody's good reason is hunting. If, they then join a target shooting club. Which of the conditions in section 2 have they stopped complying with? I think you've literally just proved why you are incorrect. The only one I can see is (g), complies with such other conditions (if any) specified in the firearm certificate - in a case where a condition restricting use was on the certificate.

    [quote] Cass- It is, as above. If you want it to be more elaborate then I'd agree with you, but the purpose of the "vagueness" is to allow for both discretion and leeway. Not necessarily always to our favour. [/quote]

    As above, it's actually not. You declare your reasons at the point in time of applying, and the powers that be decide based on those reasons to grant or not. But there is no aspect of the law that says those reason have to be updated if they ever get added to.

    I do understand why you are taking that view. But if that were actually true if opens up a minefield. If somebody gains some permission, and loses older ones, that he used to apply. Is his application now fraudulent as you said? Of course not. Nor do they have to update their application with new permission.

    FWIW I also take the apply for all reasons that you might need it for just incase. In anything, its a stronger application. And covers your arse if the law ever changes.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass
    Moderator


    Mellor - The section of the law, any section of the law, that backs up what you are claiming. As section 4 does not.

    I cited legislation and you simply say its not right. That is not a rebuttal, its an opinion. Provide support for your point that section 4 does not cover the conditions for which you apply for a license.

    Mellor - I don't think we should be making up laws on our own.

    I don't think we should be sensationalising something that is not happening. Section 4 was written by legislators, not me. No one is making it up, its there in black and white.


    If you require further evidence that section 4 is the sole legislation for judging the reasons for gratning a firearm certificate then look at court cases such as William Goodison v Superintendent D. J. Sheahan, McCarron v Superintendent Kearney, O'Leary v Maher, etc. where refusals were issued (instead of grants) because the issuing person did not believe (among other issues) that the "Good Reason" the applicant gave was good enough. The Justice(s) also cited that the reason why a firearm was being applied for was as important as the person's suitability and ability to possess it safely.

    Mellor - This is wrong. Intent cannot apply retrospectively. That's just basic legal terms.

    I never said anything about retrospective anything. I said you apply for the license for a specific purpose(s), and once granted the license is for that purpose ONLY. To use the firearm for any other purpose other than that which was applied for it legally a breach of the conditions of your license.

    Mellor - The application is made at a point in time. You state your true intentions at that point in time. If, after a length of time, you add additional interests. Those interests do not make your the statement on you application untrue. A bit ridiculous to claim so.

    I never said they made them untrue, I said to apply for a firearm for one purpose, and only that purpose, but to use it for additional purposes that were not applied for is a fraudulent application (if done on purpose). Its a breach of the conditions of your license if done in error. Your dismissal of such as "ridiculous" is your own opinion with no actual facts to support it, and should not be listened to by anyone for fear of falling foul of the law based on faulty/illegal advice of "you're grand, work away".

    Mellor - Permission to shoot deer on land is a legal requirement in itself, not a licensing issue.

    Of course it is. Now you're contradicting yourself, in the same sentence. You claim its a legal requirement, but not a licensing one. The only requirements for the Deer license and firearms license are legal ones. Its not a guideline or suggestion. When applying for a firearm for hunting you need to provide land permission or membership to a gun club to AGS. Without it you don't get the firearm license. Without it you don't get the Deer license from NPWS.

    Mellor - All other legal requirement to shoot deer apply regardless of whether you put it on your application.

    You apply for the firearm for Deer hunting on the FCA1 by ticking hunting and providing a copy of your Deer license in order to get the firearm. Without the Deer license, land permission(s), ticking the appropriate box etc. you don't get the firearms license. Deer hunting, the act, is covered under the Wildlife Act(s) and not germane (really) to the lciensing issue.

    Mellor - I don't believe competency that require Garda approval. As everyone was a beginner once.

    Again, how wrong this is, its dangerous. Therre is a dedicated section on the FCA1 to show competence. There are four listed methods to show comptence and one (ossibly more) of them must be met before a license is issued.

    Mellor - Where have I suggested anyone could not continue to comply with them?

    You've read that wrong. The "will continue to comply........" means they must abide by the terms of the grant/licensing of the firearm.

    Mellor - If somebody's good reason is hunting. If, they then join a target shooting club. Which of the conditions in section 2 have they stopped complying with?

    I said nothing about section 2.

    Mellor - I think you've literally just proved why you are incorrect. The only one I can see is (g), complies with such other conditions (if any) specified in the firearm certificate - in a case where a condition restricting use was on the certificate.

    So I'm wrong? then why did you immediately follow that accusation with "well here is one piece of law that says you must abide by the conditions of your license."

    Mellor - As above, it's actually not. You declare your reasons at the point in time of applying, and the powers that be decide based on those reasons to grant or not. But there is no aspect of the law that says those reason have to be updated if they ever get added to.

    So to clear this up and prevent further novels as replies, you belive that once you are granted a license for a firearm for say target shooting, that you can go out hunting, and other with it without having applied for it for those reasons? You believe that if the license is granted on the condition you intend to use it for target shooting that there is no breach of the conditions of sai license by hsuing for other purposes not declared when applying?

    Mellor - I do understand why you are taking that view. But if that were actually true if opens up a minefield.

    It is true, its in law, the Commissioner's guidleines, and its been covered in court cases. Not a minefield as its not enforced. Gardaí have no "on site" access to PULSE so once a person has a firearms license for the firearm in their possession most Gardaí will not give much attention to the reasons/conditions applied for on the application.

    Mellor - If somebody gains some permission, and loses older ones, that he used to apply. Is his application now fraudulent as you said? Of course not. Nor do they have to update their application with new permission.

    You are reading it wrong or purposefully bastarding what I've said. I never claimed anything of the sort, that is a leap you have taken, without justification I might add. The legal requirement to provide land permissions only exists in so far as to provide lands, and the addition or loss of permissions is not a fraudulent application because you had them at the time of applying, and the license was granted based on what you had at the time. If you lost permissions, but used them at renewal time or for a new application (after loosing them) then its fraudulent.

    Fraudulent means to be obtained, done by, or involving deception, especially criminal deception.

    Mellor - FWIW I also take the apply for all reasons that you might need it for just incase. In anything, its a stronger application. And covers your arse if the law ever changes.

    Seems ticking as many relevant boxes on the FCA1 is easier, cheaper, and simpler to do than spending the last 9 days looking for arguments to legislation, doesn't it?

    <Removing prohibited topic>

    Post edited by Cass on

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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,388 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor
    Registered User


    Cass,

    I never see this reply originally.

    I cited legislation and you simply say its not right. That is not a rebuttal, its an opinion. Provide support for your point that section 4 does not cover the conditions for which you apply for a license.

    Not sure if this a comprehension issue. But I'll try to keep it simply.

    section 4 cover the applying and grant of a license. Not the usage of the firearm. The evidence that proves you wrong is literally section 4 when read correctly.

    I don't think we should be sensationalising something that is not happening. Section 4 was written by legislators, not me. No one is making it up, its there in black and white.

    Yes, it's there in black and white. It doesn't back up your interpretation.

    If you require further evidence that section 4 is the sole legislation for judging the reasons for gratning a firearm certificate then look at court cases such as William Goodison v Superintendent D. J. Sheahan, McCarron v Superintendent Kearney, O'Leary v Maher, etc. where refusals were issued (instead of grants) because the issuing person did not believe (among other issues) that the "Good Reason" the applicant gave was good enough. The Justice(s) also cited that the reason why a firearm was being applied for was as important as the person's suitability and ability to possess it safely.

    That's granting, not usage. You don't seem to see the difference.

    I never said anything about retrospective anything. I said you apply for the license for a specific purpose(s), and once granted the license is for that purpose ONLY. To use the firearm for any other purpose other than that which was applied for it legally a breach of the conditions of your license.

    Please show me where it says in law that "once granted the license is for that purpose ONLY". If you can show me that I will apologies and concede I was wrong. But if you cannot show me, that what are you basing this claim on?

    Of course it is. Now you're contradicting yourself, in the same sentence. You claim its a legal requirement, but not a licensing one.

    Yes not all legal requirements are licensing requirements. This is really simple. Which part is confusing you.

    The only requirements for the Deer license and firearms license are legal ones. Its not a guideline or suggestion. When applying for a firearm for hunting you need to provide land permission or membership to a gun club to AGS. Without it you don't get the firearm license. Without it you don't get the Deer license from NPWS.

    You can be licensed for a firearm (and for hunting) prior to being issued a deer license. QED.

    This is all probably the only part of firearms law that Ireland haven't covered in red tape, unlike other countries.

    Again, how wrong this is, its dangerous. Therre is a dedicated section on the FCA1 to show competence. There are four listed methods to show comptence and one (ossibly more) of them must be met before a license is issued.

    And there is also a section for beginners who are yet to be license. As you are aware.

    So I'm wrong? then why did you immediately follow that accusation with "well here is one piece of law that says you must abide by the conditions of your license."

    Yes you are wrong.

    I said nothing about section 2.

    Subsection. continuing to comply. You specifically refer to this. The fact you gave the above pedantic reply rather than an answer the question suggest prehaps you realise you are wrong.

    <Removing prohibited topic>

    Clay shooting is a legal use. If you have a license granted for an antique shotgun. You can shoot clays with it. Doing so doesn't mean you have stopped collecting it, so section 4 is still covered.

    Post edited by Cass on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass
    Moderator


    I'm not backtracking.

    You've once again gone "missing" for two and half months and spent who knows how much of that time trying to think of ways to call me stupid, four by my count, while simply repeating your opinions rather than supporting your points with actual law or facts, so go ahead with your notions. I'm not here to convince you you're wrong, nor am I the Garda that polices such matters.


    I#ll end on this. Section 5(1)(d) & (e).

    5.  —   (1) An issuing person may at any time revoke a firearm certificate granted by the person if satisfied that the holder of the certificate  —


    ) where the firearm certificate limits the purposes for which the firearm to which it relates may be used, is using the firearm for purposes not authorised by the certificate,

    ) has not complied with a condition attached to the grant of the certificate,

    So when you tick a box in section 4.2 of the FCA1 you apply for a license for that reason. If you select only one reason, and successful, then its granted based on that reason and that reason only. Thats easily understood.

    According to section 5(1)(d) if you use a gun you were granted a license for, for any other purpose other than that which was applied for (the limit of purpose mentioned) then its grounds for revocation.

    Part (e) deals with specific conditions applied to a license which are stated on the grant letter.

    Post edited by Cass on

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass
    Moderator


    MODERATOR WARNING.

    This bit requries an official response as you seem to be ignorant of the line between poster and Moderator, plus there is a hint of back seat modding which is a violation of forum rules.

    When I speak as a Moderator I'll do so as I am doing now, by clearly labeling any post as a Moderator post/note/warning and all the font will be in bold, to distinguish it from my regular posts which is me posting as a regualr member of the forum.

    People have tried, and failed, in the past to use the "A moderator should ........." or "Surprised a Moderator.......... " defence as a means of deflection.

    That should clear up any confusion you may have about the duality of the role of a Moderator.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,388 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor
    Registered User


    You've once again gone "missing" for two and half months and spent who knows how much of that time trying to think of ways to call me stupid, four by my count, while simply repeating your opinions rather than supporting your points with actual law or facts, so go ahead with your notions. I'm not here to convince you you're wrong, nor am I the Garda that polices such matters.

    Cass, I don't sit around thinking about ways to call you stupid. Not have I called you stupid. I resent the accusation.

    I didn't see the final post originally. You link to it yesterday. That's pretty straight forward. I'm not sure why there is such a nasty attitude.

    I#ll end on this. Section 5(1)(d) & (e).

    5.  — (1) An issuing person may at any time revoke a firearm certificate granted by the person if satisfied that the holder of the certificate —


    ) where the firearm certificate limits the purposes for which the firearm to which it relates may be used, is using the firearm for purposes not authorised by the certificate,

    ) has not complied with a condition attached to the grant of the certificate,

    I've bolded the keys words above. If there are conditions attached to the grant or the license. Such as the super saying it can only be used for target shooting, or only used as a collection and not fire. Then obviously you must comply with that. But those conditions are not attached to license by default based on the FCA1. If those condition apply that must be stated somewhere.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass
    Moderator


    Mellor - Then obviously you must comply with that. But those conditions are not attached to license by default based on the FCA1. If those condition apply that must be stated somewhere.

    When you apply, via the FCA1, you tick the "good reason" for applying for the firearm in section 4.2. Once the application is processed, and if granted, then the license is issued based on that reason. If you provide more than one reason and you get the license then its granted for those reasons. That is as striaght forward as it can be.

    Your opinion is once the license is granted, and assuming the person only selected one reason in section 4.2, then they can use the firearm for any other purpose. I disagree simply because if that is the case then there is no need for the "multiple choice" of section 4.2. Merely a small blank section to explain why you want it.

    When a license is issued it is done so based on the reason(s) you gave. The license will not have anything on it to show for what reason it was granted, only the PULSE system will contain that information. So I'll put it to you that section 5(1)(d) refers to the reason(s) prvided when applying, and only those. Hence that section covers what happens when someone goes "outside" the limits of their license.

    A potential real life scenario, I'd appreciate your input on this:

    • You apply for a 308 for target shooting using the FCA1 and tick "Target shooting" in section 4.2
    • You have provided range membership proof, etc and are granted the license, pay the fee and receive your actual license.
    • You shoot for some time at the range and decide you want to go foxing, or rabbit hunting with your 308.
    • You head out, say at night, foxing and meet a Garda who is responding to calls about a lamp.
    • He asks to see your license and verfiies its you, the gun is the one listed on the license, and the Garda records your details for a later check.
    • The Garda checks PULSE, then your FCA1 hardcopy and notices only Target shooting has been ticked as your reason for wanting the fiream. You have not ticked hunting or provided land permissions or good reason as to why a 308 is necessary for hunting foxes/rabbits, etc.
    • Not sure of the actual process from here, but it [the check] makes its way to the FO then to the Super.
    • You receive a letter or call at the door requesting you attend a meeting with the FO & Super.
    • At the meeting you are asked why you were out hunting with a rifle that was granted for target shooting.
    • You tell them that because of your understanding of section 4 of the firearms act there is nothing stopping you from using the firearm, once granted, for any purpose you wish.
    • The Super informs you that as there were no land permissions provided, and hunting/Other (vermin) was not ticked on the FCA1, nd that you provided no good reason why a 308 was necessary for such hunting/vermin control that you are breaching the conditions/limits of why your license was originally issued, as had he [Super] known you intended to hunt with the rifle he would not have issued the license or would have demanded you go for a smaller caliber.

    The end result, or consequences, is an unknown so I won't load the above scenario with whatifery about how severe or lax they [consequences] may be. This is my understanding of the process and system as it is in law and the Commissioner's guidelines. If anyone wants to ignore this and only apply using one reason that they know it'll be granted for then use the firearm for another reason then on their head be it. As said above I'm not the Gardaí and its not my job to police people's real world happenings.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,388 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor
    Registered User


    When a license is issued it is done so based on the reason(s) you gave. The license will not have anything on it to show for what reason it was granted, only the PULSE system will contain that information.

    In order for section 5 to apply. There needs to be a condition attached to the license, the grant. Either directly or via an attachment document.

    Evidence: As stated in section 5.

    Deer Hunter shooting foxes

    There are a number of legal requirements to shoot on private land. So he could well be breaking the law, such lacking land permission (or a game license in regards to game).

    So, I feel a better example is to isolate to the issue.

    • Somebody buys a rifle, they put hunting only as it’s their only interest
    • They use it for 6 months. Off iron sights. then buy a scope, so obviously must zero
    • The commissioners guidelines recommends zeroing at a range…

    Shooting at a range is “target shooting”, So according to your interpretation. They would be not permitted to zero at the range - even though that’s the recommendation.

    In fact, isn’t shooting paper only technically target shooting too under the law. So that would be off limits. How can a hunter zero then?

    (Firing a small number of rounds to zero is permitted outside if a register range. That makes it permitted. Not something other than target shooting.


    The other easy example the the collector shoring his wetherby shotguns at clays. Grizley mentioned if in the other thread, he has the same view as me. That it’s permitted.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass
    Moderator


    Mellor - In order for section 5 to apply. There needs to be a condition attached to the license, the grant. Either directly or via an attachment document.

    Evidence: As stated in section 5.

    I'm not going to change your mind no more than you will convince me. If nothing else this thread will serve as a basis for anyone making that decision to have all the info they can and make their own decision. I'll finish on this.

    When you receive your grant letter there are three "boxes" on the grant. The top one contains the condition:

    That the conditions as set out in Section 4 of the Principal act, 1025 as substituted by Section 32(4)(2) of the Criminal justice Act, 2006 have been complied with.

    This is where we disagree on the meaing of section 4 as outlined above. I believe that section 4, along with the information given in your application (FCA1), and providing the application is granted on that information limits you to what you applied for the license for. You don't.

    The second box is either blank, if no additional conditions are attached, or it'll have conditons, as I seen with a couple of lads regarding restricted pistol, which states:

    Only to be used on an authorised target shooting as authorised by Section 4(A) of the Principal act,1925 as substituted by Section 33(6) of the Criminal justice Act, 2006.

    I have never received such additional conditions, but I know better than to take my pistol out when not on a range. I other words I cannot use it for vermin control even though there are no laws preventing me from doing so.

    Mellor - There are a number of legal requirements to shoot on private land. So he could well be breaking the law, such lacking land permission (or a game license in regards to game).

    No, everything is in order. Land permissions, etc. However I'm not discussing Deer shooting, but its irrelevant as to whether that is included or not so say he has his Deer license too. So all "above board" in terms of his personal requirements only that he never ticked Hunting on the FCA1 and only applied for the firearm for target shooting.

    What then? Can he go vermin shooting or Deer stalking without having applied for the firearms license for those reasons?

    Mellor - Shooting at a range is “target shooting”, So according to your interpretation. They would be not permitted to zero at the range - even though that’s the recommendation.

    No, because ranges are exempt under section 2(4)(d) which allows even non licensed people, let alone people with a license for a single purpose, to shoot on a range while under supervision. Its why my example was of a target shooter out hunting and not the other way around as the opposite (hunter on a range) is already covered under other legislation.

    The Minister, after banning zeroing (outside a range) by default, even said it was not his intention to ban such safety practices, but the law was never changed to allow for zeroing and the day range memebrship ban prevented people using them for that single purpose.So while you can shoot on a range without having ticked target shooting on your FCA1 under section 2(4)(d) you cannot join a range for a day to do so, must be a full member, at which point you'd tick Target shooting in section 4.2 of the FCA1 and provide the proof of membership.

    Mellor - In fact, isn’t shooting paper only technically target shooting too under the law. So that would be off limits. How can a hunter zero then?

    It has been a bone of contention since and when the Commissioner took office in 2018 he added this to the guidelines which subtly said the Gardaí understand the law is flawed on this issue and we're "turning a blind eye to it", once its not abused. Such abuse is turning it from a zeroing/safety session to a half a dozen lads shooting targets for a day (outside a range).

    Mellor - (Firing a small number of rounds to zero is permitted outside if a register range. That makes it permitted. Not something other than target shooting.

    Don't follow. The wording make the sentence impossible to comprehend. What makes what permitted?

    Mellor - The other easy example the the collector shoring his wetherby shotguns at clays. Grizley mentioned if in the other thread, he has the same view as me. That it’s permitted.

    Because clay pigeon shooting is not classed as target shooting under the law and hence no specific authorisation is required.

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    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


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