Is buying a diesel car now silly?

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857345#Comment_117857345

Most people's commute is within the range of the car. I haven't been to a petrol station in months, I refuel in the comfort of my home.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857426#Comment_117857426

But you are one person. Dont mistake yourself for most people.

Just look on boards (if you can with the new boards) at all the talk about fast chargers. Clearly its a big issue.

Dont get me wrong. We have an EV as a second car and its fantastic, but I would never have one as the only car in a household.

fits

I thought that was your parents had the ev?

I’ve had an ev a month and yet to visit a public charger and tbh don’t know when I’ll ever need to maybe when we go on hols a couple of times a year

the_amazing_raisin

Well I'm going to chuck my oar in on this one

Had a Leaf 24kWh since 2018, loved it, drove it everywhere even outside it's range. The petrol car was so unpleasant to drive by comparison that I would take the charging stops rather than drive it

It was a bit short range however, so this year we got an ID.4 77kWh. Still have the Leaf, we got rid of the petrol car instead and are now all electric

In the few months I've owned the ID.4 I've charged at a garage exactly twice, and once was just for the craic. We've driven from Dublin to Waterford and back without needing ANY charging (including destination charging). I reckon I'd get 350-400km of motorway driving out of the car without a sweat

If I had to go down to Cork or Kerry tomorrow I'd have no hesitation about the journey

Now there's plenty of good reasons not to get a EV, not wanting to pay the steep price for one or not having access to a home charger are good ones.

But I'd never count fuel savings as a reason. I charged up the car yesterday (first time in a week) and put 30kWh in for less than the price of a cup of coffee

So let's just throw out this notion that EVs can't do long journeys. Yes, there's a few folks out there who would regularly travel 600km or more who don't want to spend the 20 mins it would take to charge up en route. But for the vast majority of drivers out there, most new EVs will cover their needs with plenty to spare

To go back to the OP's question, is it daft to buy a diesel car these days? Maybe, maybe not, depends on your needs. But you would be daft to discount an EV straight away because of range anxiety. At least test drive one first and see how nice they are to drive before deciding

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857495#Comment_117857495

Just out of curiosity, how much have you spent on EVs in the last 4 years?

Nyero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857455#Comment_117857455

I think he is right though. Most people would be able to drive to work and back comfortably in the range of the car, charge at home and avoid service stations completely. Those whose commute is outside the cars range also have the option of on street charging while working.

Even trip to a service station probably takes 10 minutes at least, so avoiding that once a week is another time saving.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857579#Comment_117857579

Yeah but once you have got and used an EV you realize that people saying that they are great and they dont charge except at night is a bullsh!t tbh.

You realize that yes, you do have to charge it on long trips. Yes you do have to spend long times at chargers. Yes sometimes (often actually) the chargers are broken.

Yes, most of the time the on street chargers are hard to get on and are often iced.

People who already drive EVs should be honest with people thinking about buying them.

Look on boards at all the complaints about icing and broken chargers and issues getting chargers working. Than the same people will be on here telloing people life is great and they never have to charge their cars and they have never been to a service station etc.

You'll even have them on assuming that someone 80 myear old aunt who lives in the sticks has a charger that you can charge you car up in an hour when you visit her. Or they will suggest you stay overnight.

Anyone thinking of having an EV as their only car needs to realize that driving becomes more complicated with an EV as an only car.

As a second car, they are a dream, because you always have the backup and can avoid all of the other pitfalls.

fits

^ that all may be your opinion. But the majority of ev drivers would not agree with you.

Nyero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857641#Comment_117857641

I believe it is still correct to say that most peoples return commute is well within the cars range and won't ever need to charge on street etc.

Looking into one myself and I can only see an issue for us if we go off for a long weekend at the opposite end of the country we would need to know that we will have access to a charger when we get there for touring around the local area etc.

But I suppose its a case of hotels needing to put in charging points the same as they might have a swimming pool, pets welcome, free wifi etc.

That way people will book hotels who include charging options at their premises. Ditto shopping centres etc., it will attract customers.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857455#Comment_117857455

But that's you. You are one person and your experience isn't the same as everyone else, don't mistake yourself for most people. Plenty of people have Ev's and live in areas, have lifestyles and commutes that don't require them to go to petrol stations to recharge.

daveville30

I can't see these electric cars taking over at all.id say petrol or diesel engines will be adapted to take a different fuel.whats the plans for plant machinery can't bring an excavator home or run leads around a building site.

SomeGuyCalledMi

Personally, I wouldn't buy a diesel car. Next time I change it will be fully electric. Climate change and air pollution being the reasons. Unless all climatologists are wrong. And the UN. And NASA. And every university in the world. And oil companies.

bladespin

OP, I can certainly vouch for the Tiguan, absolutely brilliant car, I love it and it's very economical as long as it's not town only type driving.

I was really hoping there would be some sort of diesel hybrid worth looking at when it came time to renew, VAT back etc but tbh there really wasn't much to look at so went with diesel again, I think they'll be around for a good while yet. EV will suit many but not all, no getting around that unless there's some earthshattering advances in the near future.

bazz26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858014#Comment_117858014

If you are really concerned about climate change then think about not buying so much new stuff, keep your current car until it is end of life. Producing anything is damaging to the planet but we as a species have become a consumer driven society where we are told new stuff is better than old or existing stuff. Cars, mobile phones, tvs, household appliances all thrown away before the end of their usefulness because big business brain washes us into spending money on replacing them with new things.

JimmyVik

Fair enough, thats my experience, which overall is good, but i can guarantee you there are very few EV drivers who dont have to charge away from home and who havent had issues getting charged. And any who say they havent experienced any issues and havent had to make compromises when driving long distances etc are outright lying.

Nyero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857920#Comment_117857920

Why would you need to run leads around a building site? Just have charging points nearby.

Not that plant machinery has anything to do with electric cars taking off at all.

In any case I am sure they have a plan for switching diesel over to vegetable oil or hydrogen etc.

SomeGuyCalledMi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858089#Comment_117858089

But thats not what the OP was asking.

Nyero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858114#Comment_117858114

I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you. Yes if you need to use the public charging network you will need to make compromises.

But overall most people will be able to charge at home most of the time and for the occasional long journey have to plan ahead.

Like I know a 2 car family went from east coast to west coast for a weekend. The electric had to leave early so they could get charging somewhere en route.

That would be an issue for me, going away for hopefully a relaxing long weekend with nice coastal drives each day and spending the whole time revolving around getting the car charged.

Or on All Ireland final day if all of Mayo, for example, are on the road looking to top up the electric car before Dublin.

bazz26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858128#Comment_117858128

But your the one that mentioned climate change.

Furze99

Rural dweller, might be tempted with an EV for short local trips with home charging. But can't see any alternative to a petrol or diesel as a main car. And sure didn't the Greens encourage us to buy diesel?

There are other considerations as well. When I look about the region, I see all these bloody wind turbines blotting the landscape. Why, to provide subsidised power in part to EV owners. When EVs have to pay the full market price of the power to charge, there will be some moaning. I'd also like to see these turbines if we must have them built in the like of Dublin Bay - let those who benefit from them put up with the downsides too.

Then there is the issues of the environmental costs behind the construction and disposal of batteries for EVs. This is a dirty business too.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858182#Comment_117858182

We had the same on a trip to Kerry. One EV and one Diesel. I think the EV arrived about 3 hours after the diesel did. :)

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858206#Comment_117858206

All these mishaps and impediments happening to you! Clearly you're jnxed and EVs are just not for you.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858196#Comment_117858196

EV owners - at least those charging at home - do pay the full market price to do so. After having also shelled out for charging units. Nobody is going to build a wind turbine in a shipping lane, because they're not morons. But they are planning on offshore wind along the east coast. And you do get that the climate change that necessitates us switching to renewables is caused by rural dwellers as well as city dwellers, yes? And that climate change will effect rural dwellers as much as city dwellers? And it'll be worse if we don't keep to the 1.5 degrees C temperature change?

This is not a time for NIMBYism or "Dem up in Dublin!" Healy-Raeism.

Doing nothing is not an option. Unless you've no kids and don't give a **** about anyone else's, obviously.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858611#Comment_117858611

'Renewable' sources of electricity generation are heavily subsidised at present - you/ I are not paying the full cost of power generated this way. And there is the dirty business of constructing these turbines and the destruction of habitat and environment to bring the huge vehicles in. There is the dirty business of the batteries. EVs are not a solution. The solution lies in a reversion to the travel patterns of the 19thC, far less movement of people. EVs are a transient solution being sold to us, just like the current Greens churned the market by encouraging the switch from petrol to diesel. If we were truly conscious of our carbon footprints, we should both be greatly reducing our personal travel and in terms of vehicles, keeping existing vehicles on the road and just using them less and therefore less fuel.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858196#Comment_117858196

Where to start...

So you don't see a car with 400km of driving range which can always leave home with a full tank as being a viable replacement for a petrol or diesel car? Fair enough, but I'm curious as to your justification for that? We're kind of talking about the edge cases of road users who'd need more

As for the wind turbines part. Well you're free to lodge planning objections, don't be surprised if some of your neighbours disagree with you. I'd quite like to see some turbines in Dublin bay, I find them relaxing to watch

As an EV user I'd be happy to pay market rates. Often the rates are extremely low at night, even negative. Find me a petrol pump that's pays you to pump fuel

And the whole battery production and disposal thing got disproved a while ago. For one thing they didn't take into account the environmental costs of producing the fuel in a petrol car, they assume it appears magically at the pump with no pollution or energy costs in between. They also assume the batteries are produced in China using coal power, the majority of batteries used in EVs built in Europe and manufactured in Europe which has a cleaner grid

As for battery disposal, it's worth pointing out that EV batteries can be reused as storage batteries once they're beyond their vehicle lifetime (this should help with the grid issues you mentioned). And currently VW are able to recycle 92% of the battery materials to use in new batteries. They're working to bring the percentage higher. This compares to the current 0% level of recycling that occurs with the fuel in an ICE car

Nyero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858691#Comment_117858691

You are correct of course, but society won't accept it.

I remember the 1980's, single glazing, wrap up well in the blankets lads, cycle to school rain, hail or snow.

Out ye go all day in the summer, roaming about, come home for food and when its dark.

No iphones, no tablets, no 600 tv channels, no mobile phones etc. etc.

Everybody was as happy or happier than now, but now society demands a much larger carbon footprint per person.

Back on topic though and evolution to electric is the path forward, with battery development leading to batteries being more efficient, more recyleable etc.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858114#Comment_117858114

Who told you that? Do you think they all have to stop and charge on their way to and from work?

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857345#Comment_117857345

On trips of 5hours most people would stop anyway. Problem I find is the car finishes charging too fast so have to move it before I'm finished my lunch.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857354#Comment_117857354

Not exactly, use the car when required and pay for the pollution you cause or else use an alternative. House planners allowing ribbon development all over the country feeds into this in a big way, ties us in to unsustainable transport, death of villages and towns, septic tanks pollution etc..

If you choose to build a house in the sticks then unfortunately you should pay for the detrimental impact it has on everyone else. Blame your local councillor who lobbied for your planning instead of lobbying to make sites available in the local town for locals to build in a more sustainable manner.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857520#Comment_117857520

I have all this in a nice excel sheet for comparing annual running costs but I can't figure out how to do tables on the new boards

So here's a screenshot instead. I compared my Nissan Leaf to my previous car (2007 Toyota Auris 1.4l Petrol)

The ID.4 isn't really a fair comparison so I put together some numbers for a diesel Tiguan

Some explanation of the numbers:

• I based the comparison on me pre-pandemic commute with today's energy prices, so roughly 12,500km per year, mix of motorways, city driving and national roads
• Consumption is based on the year round average of what I've achieved in those cars. You might do better but I would generally have a pretty conservative driving style, so unless you're hypermiling I don't think you'll get much more. WLTP figures might look nice on paper but it's pretty rare people actually achieve them
• Maintainance is a bit of an estimate of the service costs, obviously they vary year by year. It's worth noting that in nearly 4 years, the Leaf has had no mechanical issues. I did get a new set of tyres after the first year since they were quite worn when I bought the car. By contrast, the Auris needed a new clutch and gearbox one year costing over €1000
• Insurance is based on quotes I got from Aviva for all those cars
• Tolls are a slight cheat, when I was commuting I would take the port tunnel during the cheap times. With a 50% discount this was reasonable in the Leaf. If I didn't have the discount I probably wouldn't take it every day. But for the sake of a fair comparison I've included it for both cars

So overall the Leaf represented a significant saving in running costs versus the Auris, and the same applies for the Tiguan versus the ID.4

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117859147#Comment_117859147

Not everyone who lives in rural areas is in a one off house.

Many who live in towns or villages have to commute to work

Basically you are proposing the use of motor taxes as a sort of punishment regime for people living outside the bigger urban centres.

All such a policy would achieve is to take money from the pockets of those people because they have no alternatives.

There aren't enough hybrids or evs on the used market to replace all the diesels currently in the national fleet.

Look at Donedeal or similar sites. They are full of diesels with years of life left in them.

The only sensible thing to do is to let them work through the market.

Wildly Boaring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860344#Comment_117860344

Depreciation?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860692#Comment_117860692

Well I wouldn't count that as a running cost, but here's what it was for each of my cars

2007 Auris, bought for €9,000 in 2014, traded for €4,500 in 2018 - 50% depreciation

2016 Leaf, bought for €17k in 2018, valued at €7k for trade in in 2021 - 60% depreciation

I think all this proves is that I'm not good at financial decision making. The Leaf lost more value but was newer when I bought it, so it's probably about even to an equivalent ICE

Wildly Boaring

Depreciation is the largest running cost of any car.

By and large, new cars depreciate harder than second hands.

Your Auris lost 4500 in 4 years. Or 1125 a year

Your Leaf lost 10,000 in 3 years. Or 3333 a year

2000 a year buy a lot of diesel.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861297#Comment_117861297

Your last line is based on the assumption that a diesel car would depreciate at a dramatically slower rate.

If I'd bought a 2016 diesel instead of the Leaf then it would likely have depreciated by the same amount and cost me an extra €1500 per year

I could have kept the Auris and in theory I'd be better off financially. But the problem there is that I wanted a newer car, which presumably a lot of people do since they keep going out and buying new cars

Wildly Boaring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861680#Comment_117861680

Well it's based on your actual figures.

Right now it's difficult to buy an older EV in order to avoid hard depreciation.

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858611#Comment_117858611

If you are truly worried about the environment then you won't have any kids, the growth in population will make a lot more of a difference than if you choose to drive a diesel or electric car

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861766#Comment_117861766

Its also really hard to predict depreciation for new evs at present. The second hand market is extremely strong and EVs are only growing in demand. I did similar calculations to AR but included depreciation of 5k a year for my new ev and 3k a year for the 5 year old diesel i would have bought otherwise. For my mileage of over 20 k a year the ev was still cheaper to run over 3 years. After that its more uncertain.

Wildly Boaring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862190#Comment_117862190

AM is saving approx 1500 before depreciation.

You calculated with a depreciation difference of approx 2000

Combining both would put new EV dearer than secondhand diesel by 500.

Which is what I expect TBH.

(Cost of having a nice new car is never going to be cheap)

Are you using much greater mileage figure?

Or what is your main difference to his sheet?

ICE not as frugal as an old Auris?

BTW. This is not a pop at you guys.

I've a diesel card so simply won't be buying EV in near future.

But I got mileage in last job and was coming out with very similar costs on ICE to AR spreadsheet.

Just interested.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860344#Comment_117860344

Nice sheet.

What about the cost of the cars and the depreciation though?

And there is no doubt that fuel wise EVs are cheaoer. Thats why we use ours to zip around day to day and keep the diesel for the long trips to save the charging hassle and time.

the_amazing_raisin

fits does have about double my mileage, and since the main saving is on fuel/electricity then it makes sense he'd save more

@Wildly Boaring is right that the more you spend on a car, the more you lose. The same is true for any car and I believe the original question was whether it makes sense to buy a new diesel these days

If you were looking at an equivalent spec EV versus diesel, often they'd be within a few thousand of each other new. If depreciation and running costs are your main concern then IMO it makes more sense to buy an EV given the lower costs and strong demand in the second hand market

As I said, there's good reasons why an EV might not work for you, but I do think it's a bit silly for people to dismiss them outright without at least taking one for a test drive and doing the math to see if they would work out

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860456#Comment_117860456

I wish they let that happen to petrol cars when they were deemed a disaster, I'd still be in my petrol car that was taxed out of ownership and is now considered acceptable. However, I agree with you, it would be unfair to tax diesel cars out of ownership for folk that still have big commutes, but I can see a ban on diesel non commercials on the horizon in cities. I was forced to diesel and is was a bitch for my small commutes, all sorts of problems.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861085#Comment_117861085

How much was that leaf new in 2016 and after only 5 years it was worth only €7k.

Thats some depreciation on a 5 year old car.

How much did your new EV cost?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866744#Comment_117866744

I dunno, something like €22k new in 2016 I think

There's a lot of people trading Leafs for newer EVs at the moment, so prices aren't great. Based on prices on the internet, I could have gotten more like €8-9k if I'd sold private. €7k was what the dealership offered so that's what I put down

shnaek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866053#Comment_117866053

Same here, forced to diesel because the greens said they were best for the environment. Ten years later they're saying EV's are best. What will they be saying ten years from now?

horse7

Hydrogen.

Dilbert75

I don't necessarily agree that the Greens were solely responsible for the push on diesel - diesel cars at that stage were emitting measurably lower CO2, which is important to reduce (lots of petrol engines are now producing quite comparable levels). However, I also don't believe that the push from cc to CO2-based tax was warranted, given the amount of CO2 that is generated in the manufacture of a car. No obvious consideration was given to the full life-cycle emissions of each car. Furthermore, the bore no relation to the actual emissions being put out, only their capability; my elderly mother's 1.3 Fiat Panda, in which she was doing 2000km/year, was costing nearly twice as much to tax as my Mondeo 2.0TDCi doing 40,000km+/year. So the principle was sound, but the execution was ham-fisted.

I think there's also a thing with new technology like BEVs that the pace of technical progression in the early years is rapid and then levels out a bit. So few now will consider a used car with a somewhat depleted 24kWh battery when they can buy a new car with a 50+kWh battery and never have to worry about the topic of charging mid-journey. Inevitably, these early adopters will lose more value from their cars than later adopters do, just by virtue of them becoming old-tech more quickly. That's just life with new technology.

firemansam4

EV have progressed quite a fair amount in the last few years, and they are becoming more practical year on year. But I think we still have a way to go yet on them.

Toyota are claiming that they are developing new solid state battery tech to allow them to build cars with upto 700km range in the next 5 to 10 years. And im sure there are other companies also working on more advanced technology to extend ranges further as well.

These kind of ranges will put to bed most peoples range anxiety fears if they are developed.

I think EV is the future but not quite yet for everyone.

brianwalshcork

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866926#Comment_117866926

Running costs on Hydrogen are expensive - approximately €9.50 / 100 km urban driving, on a par with petrol or diesel. Fuel economy is worse at higher / motorway speeds.

The infrastructure isn't there yet either.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866926#Comment_117866926

It shouldn't be Hydrogen but big oil are pushing it hard. It's a terribly inefficient way to power cars as well as needing massive investment for storage and transport

For EVs to cover all requirements there needs to be a few more 7 seaters, vans, trucks, and proper workhorses for towing big trailers etc... The other 90% of people are covered already, if the prices are too high they can wait until their current car "needs" replacing before switching to a second hand EV.

A range of 300-400km is plenty in Ireland. Nobody drives 700km here without stopping, that's further than Malin Head to Mizen head (664km) and an 8.5 hour drive.

Can be done easily with a stop every 4hours in a 50kwh Tesla, no need for wasting resources to build and cart around a 100kwh battery for a once a year trip.

Would you pay 10-15k extra for a bigger battery to save 30mins of charging once a year? Nobody should as it's a waste of valuable resources in manufacturing as well as using more electricity every day.