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Is buying a diesel car now silly?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭ TaurenDruid




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,514 ✭✭✭✭ fits


    That’s not really true now. I think most sensible people realise that a move to public transport in cities would make life better for almost everyone.


    id much rather park outside the m50 and get in quickly on a bus corridor then be sitting in traffic the days I’m in Dublin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭ TaurenDruid


    "EV boys" - are you 12?

    I agree with all of your points in this, except the last sentence, though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭ Wildly Boaring


    On my engineering course 20 years ago we spoke about the need for park-and-ride sites at the m50 and QBC style transit into town.

    With logical links at say north/south circular / canals etc.


    Once in place congestion charges and BIK on parking to follow


    Seemed incredibly logical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭ shnaek


    Easy to prove - just get someone with an ID-3 to try it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,058 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    200km for aircon? lol



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭ shnaek


    Is running aircon a problem with electric cars? And why would I make that up?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭ shnaek


    A quick look at google gives an average of 33% drop in range (that would be 100km in this case) when aircon is running. Now, I am just going by anecdotal evidence regarding the ID-3 - I don't know if there are official figures there. Still, a 33% drop in range is far from insignificant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭ TaurenDruid


    We rarely use petrol, crazy value. It takes around €1.80 to charge for 50km. That is usually adequate for a typical parental day around our parts.


    and


    We've just been charging at home every day since as usual, and still have put no fuel in to the car in over two weeks.

    yet

    Until 50% of car parking spaces have a charger I think full electric is pointless.

    One of these things is not like the other...

    Genuinely puzzled why you'd say full electric is pointless, given you're effectively never or rarely using petrol, except for (presumably) an occasional long trip?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭ MightyMunster


    Your example has a small battery, slow charging EV. Most new EVs with batteries now starting at at least 50kwh, will do 300 on a Motorway or more than 400km on slower roads no problem. If you're regularly driving beyond your range on a route with no chargers you've probably bought the wrong car.

    Judging by the amount of cars stopped in Cashel, Mayfield, Birdhill services plenty of folks stop long enough to charge a car, by the time you queue for petrol, move to car park, queue to pay, get your McDonald's your EV would be charged up for another 2-3 hours of driving.



  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭ MightyMunster


    This is already enshrined in legislation and has started, look at an post for an example



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,514 ✭✭✭✭ fits


    I was driving my Id.3 for two hours today with air con on and used 20% battery. I don’t know what happened with your acquaintance but it doesn’t make sense to me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭ novarock


    I'd love a full electric, don't get me wrong. Something that can charge as fast, with the same predictable range as a tesla, but at a more reasonable price!

    In the context of Diesel or Fossil vs Electric, until the country is saturated with chargers there is not a lot of option. Like everything else infrastructure in this country is very dublin centric. Diesel will be around for a long time as a result. I live in a relatively new estate where half of the houses have no driveways and a footpath between the house and car, so charging at home is not even a possibility for a lot of people.

    The power infrastructure just isn't there outside the main cities to charge a full electric fast enough to make it practical. Basically wherever there is a large petrol station, there would need to be something similar to a tesla supercharger to make it work for every type of person. Couple that with mandatory requirements for buildings with car parks to have chargers then we are headed the right direction

    From a numbers perspective, in 2017 the whole country was using 71MW a day of power, right now if you were to charge 50,000 teslas for an hour it would use 25MW at 50kwh chargers. Tesla have chargers that will do 250kwh. (someone else can check my maths!) We have 2 Million cars in ireland at the moment. Until we are at a point that we are pumping in huge amounts of Nuclear, the numbers just don't add up..



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭ TaurenDruid


    Thanks, that makes sense. Yeah, it's bizarre seeing new housing estates going up with no facility or even thought given to 10 or even 5 years down the road, and how people are going to charge their cars. I'm in a 'traditional' 3-bed semi with a driveway so at least I'll have the option of putting in a charger in the next few years, but the new estates going up, as you say, don't have a driveway (some don't even have footpaths).

    My employer is putting it's toe in the water, at least, and looking at putting in a couple of charging points in the car park.

    And yes, if you do the follow the government promises/"pledges" - 1 million EVs by 2030? - and actually do out the maths, then I think realistically we're looking at needing a small nuclear plant in the medium term... especially when you add in the data centres!



  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭ MightyMunster


    Think your numbers are a bit off. Not an expert on it but think this is some way accurate.

    Average mileage in Ireland is approximately 40km per day, we'll take 10kwh as a high average for this (would be around 6 in my car).

    Target for 2030 is 1 million BEVs (won't hit this target).

    So this means we would need a max of 10,000MWh per day. We have a peak demand to trough difference of 3,000MWh at night (6,500 vs 3,000)


    So 3 to 4hrs at night would charge all 1 million cars, assuming no charging done during the day or evening (peak is at 17.30).

    This is without any of the planned solar, offshore wind and wind energy coming on line before then, or the French interconnector coming in 2026.

    Assuming we miss the 2030 target, with new sales of 100k and imports around the same it would take until at least 2035 before we hit 2million EVs. Gives more time to increase electricity generation.

    The bigger picture is to have less private vehicles, more active travel, more public transport, car sharing etc..

    Charging with no driveway but a designated space on the road isn't necessarily an issue, plenty of examples of people with chargers installed on a pole in this situation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭ novarock


    I'm no mathemagician... I just divided the yearly figure in that by 365, and then by 24 for roughly what we use in a given hour, and then how many MW 50k vehicles at 50kwh might use.. Saying that aren't home chargers limited to 7kwh?

    The big gamechanger is going to be the hydrogen fuel cells coupled with batteries.. but we're a long way off that. But on the topic, I definitely don't see the arse falling out of the diesel market any time soon, especially not around the fuel emissions targets outlaid by the government.

    But for buyers, I think the parity is there now for Hybrid/Diesel/Electric. I paid less for a Hybrid version of my car than the petrol version, after the grant.

    If you are driving 800km a week all over 80kmh then stick with a diesel. If you are mostly doing a short enough work commute but want freedom to travel the country if needs be (60km round trip) then its PHEV all day.. If you only want a little runabout for going to the shops or dropping the kids, and rarely drive cross country small petrol or small full electric.

    Its now coming up on two weeks since I put fuel in the car, and that day it had half a tank left...



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭ TaurenDruid


    Charging with no driveway but a designated space on the road isn't necessarily an issue, plenty of examples of people with chargers installed on a pole in this situation.

    Hopefully you're right, but I think it'll depend on the area, to a huge extent, on whether that'd work. There are some areas with a higher than average proportion of scumbags who'd steal the cable, or just unplug it "for the laugh".



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik


    Yes car obsolete less than 5 years from new.

    I guess thats the way we are going though.

    I got Diesel in cashel the other day. chargers were full as i drove past them.

    I filled up, got my coffee and croisant and paid and was on my way in 10 minutes.

    As I was leaving same cars were charging, same cars were waiting to plug into the chargers. And another EV was coming in, presumably to wait for a charge too.

    So if in the EV I would have been waiting for a lot longer. Up to an hour I would guess.

    As I said EVs are great, but only when you dont have to charge on your journey.

    If you do, it can be fine, but equally it can be a totally drag waiting to charge.

    One thing is for sure, you'll spend a lot of time in service stations after you buy an EV :)

    PS. Wir con doesnt use that much of the battery at all. Its the heater that will use the most battery



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik


    Worse. A whole row of houses near me had the chargers stolen in one night. Taken straight off the walls of the houses.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭ Viscount Aggro


    I think they will do something in next budget,

    maybe EUR 200 extra on road tax for diesel cars.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik


    What would the basis of the tax be now though to increase tax on diesel cars?

    On modern diesels they are as clean as petrol.

    Maybe on loder Diesel cars you could tax them on some polutant, but definitely not modern ones.



  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭ MightyMunster


    Where you went wrong was the 50kwh for an hour. That's enough for 300-400km or 10days driving for the average driver.

    Yes home chargers are 7kw.

    If you're driving 800km per week you'd need to charge maybe 3 nights a week which would be quicker than a stop for diesel each week. And would save you nearly 200 euro a week!! Not to mention thousands in servicing.


    In 2.5yrs with an EV I've spent substantially less time in garages, maybe 5% as much time as with a diesel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭ MightyMunster


    I'd say a lot less stolen than catalytic converters!



  • Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭ ExoPolitic


    No, you'll spend far less time in service stations. People with home chargers are almost never setting foot in a fuel garage as most literally 99% of peoples driving is less than 200km a day.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,907 ✭✭✭✭ elperello


    No point in increasing the motor tax on cars already on the road.

    Where are they going to go?

    Any disincentives should be applied to new purchases.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭ TaurenDruid


    Carbon tax will be increasing year on year and will be applied to petrol and diesel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭ MightyMunster


    That's why you'd put the tax on usage e.g. congestion charges, more fuel tax, increased tolls for example. Encourage people to drive polluting cars less, walk cycle for short trips, bus or train for trips into cities etc..



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik



    Now thats only true if you ALWAYS drive within the range of the car. So half the range out and half the range back.

    Otherwise im afraid its long periods in the service stations for you.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik




    Ah, now we are back to everyone living in a city and within cycling range :)

    There is a whole country full of people outside Dublin you know who donmt have the services required to travel without a car :)



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