Dublin Bus tables conditional pay offer of 12%

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117747123#Comment_117747123

And yet its passengers who will suffer

The sooner drivers and their unions are removed from the equation, the better off the travelling public will be

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117747140#Comment_117747140

So re-skill

Jesus, if the pinnacle of employment one aims for is in a petrol station, then don't worry, there's plenty of other crap jobs like that still around.

StreetLight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117747650#Comment_117747650

You think working in a petrol station is a crap job? What a snob you are.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117747784#Comment_117747784

Read it again, I think you added something there that isn't

For the record, I've done the rounds on low paid menial work (Supermacs, numerous retail, bar work, restaurant kitchens washing pots etc)

john boye

RTE news : Over 90% of Dublin Bus drivers reject deal on pay rises

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0813/1240663-over-90-of-dublin-bus-drivers-reject-deal-on-pay-rises/

O'Leary wasn't long doing a 180

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117748182#Comment_117748182

I've never been his biggest fan, but with a vote that strongly against the proposals, it was never going to be tenable for him to do anything else. He's just doing what any union leader would do in that position really.

The interesting thing is prior to this vote the NBRU leadership were clearly worried about what the future might hold in a few years time if DB did not change. Normally I wouldn't associate the NBRU leadership with that much forward thinking, but the fact they were making the arguments that they were clearly indicates they are worried about what could potentially happen in the future if DB were to need to tender to retain their routes and the status quo remained.

What will be key from here is what happens next. I know some in SIPTU are now arguing that this doesn't change anything and things will now just carry on and nothing will change at all as they have 'won the battle' against reform. I'm afraid those who think that they have 'won' and everything will remain as it is for the next few years, may later find out they have achieved the most pyrrhic of victories if the NTA tender routes and DB can't compete.

We should not think bad of the drivers for looking after their long held terms and conditions of service and I don't think anyone is just going to take the changes laying down and to say that they should just deal with it is wrong. But at the same time the drivers also need to see the bigger picture and this is not about merely terms and conditions of service. It's about safeguarding their jobs in a sustainable way in the medium term and ensuring the company can be competitive in any tender that may be forthcoming and give no reason for the regulator to sanction them for contract failings.

john boye

I totally understand and agree with that yes but if I were a member of his union now I'd be wondering what his true motives are and how much he really believes he can get the drivers what they want.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117748330#Comment_117748330

The problem here is what the drivers want seems to be in conflict with what is best for their job security and the future prospects of their employer in the medium term. O'Leary is not the kind of person to simply side with reforms for no reason. He can see what might be coming further down the track I think.

O'Leary knows that if 97% of his members vote against his proposal then there is no way that he can carry on as leader of the NBRU. That's why he's made the 180 degree turn on what he initially said. You cannot lead a union if you continue to hold a position that fights 97% of the members. He can now spin it that he has heard his members loud and clear give their verdict and he will now represent that.

He's got a very tough job ahead though. The fact that he is already trying to coax politicians to get involved in the situation sends out that signal loud and clear.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117747535#Comment_117747535

there is no doubt dublin bus will be able to do all that without eroding the terms and conditions of it's staff, especially as no doubt our boys in the unions will thankfully insure the other multi-nationals should they enter here, will pay an actual wage, meaning all will be competitive while offering a good employee experience.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117747635#Comment_117747635

unions are going nowhere thankfully.

drivers won't be going anywhere for quite a while yet either.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117747650#Comment_117747650

reskilling will be unviable as there won't be enough jobs for the skills as well as the cost for doing so being unafordable to some.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117748675#Comment_117748675

And here in lies the problem that is coming down the road with the laser sharp focus on T&Cs and a lack of attention on the bigger picture which is the companies ability to deliver on the contract they signed with the NTA and their ability to retain their existing TFI route portfolio going forward.

Dublin Bus, the Workplace Relations Commission, the heads of the NBRU and SIPTU transport division, have all essentially said that should there not be changes to current work practices then Dublin Bus may have difficulties achieving the contract that they have signed with the NTA which could lead to routes being put to open tender as well as the fact that it may mean that Dublin Bus may also not be able to be competitive in tenders which may take place in 2024 when the current PSO contract ends.

Meanwhile you are suggesting that the staff should just put their fingers in their ears and ignore everything that is being said and just say that things can carry on as they are with no changes. I should hope that the people with that view do not come back crying foul in the future if routes get put to tender and DB is unsuccessful and instead hold their hands up saying that they have reaped what they have sown. No doubt however, they will not take ownership of a situation they helped create.

The other thing is that you also need to remember that there are more than just drivers in Dublin Bus, there are garage operatives, engineering staff, customer service staff and inspectors, just to name a few roles. It would be a shame if people in these roles lost their jobs because of intransigence of staff in another grade which resulted in DB losing a tender which resulted in the number of staff in these roles needing to be reduced through no fault of their own. These would be the biggest victims of them all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117748721#Comment_117748721

That argument has been used for the last 100 years each time there has been an upheaval.

Facts on the ground show this argument holds no water

Fizzy Duck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117747650#Comment_117747650

Well I've been to college twice. I got an ordinary degree in Business before I was 21 and another in Softwate development before I was 28. I always wanted to be a bus driver since I was a kid and I love my job. It may be a crap job as you put it, but for me it is not. It makes me happy and ultimately that's most important to me.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117748675#Comment_117748675

Oh really? Brave statement to make on behalf of your boys. When these jobs are lost due to DB failing to win TFI tenders, you are saying the unions will continue to pay the wage and offer good employee experience. Care to provide evidence of where Unions continued to employ and pay wages to all employees who lost jobs?

Have you costed your big bold statement?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117751563#Comment_117751563

how about commenting on what i actually said which was very clear, rather then making up things?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117748956#Comment_117748956

as i said devnull i believe dublin bus would be able to meet the conditions of the contracts unless some how those contracts are unrealistic.

they can do that while providing good terms and conditions for their workers, and i believe any other operator who would take over the contracts will ultimately end up having to pay a similar wage in the end.

to me, it is more likely to be the NTA who have unrealistic expectations then staff at db or any other company, and if we look at go ahead who themselves are paying almost similar wages to db and who themselves are having issues like any other bus operator will do in a city like dublin with it's car centric planning, then so far i am seeing nothing to be convinced otherwise, i must be honest.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117752069#Comment_117752069

Dublin Bus, the NBRU, SIPTU and the WRC have stated that Dublin Bus needs to make organisational changes in order to help them achieve the contracts and to win future contracts. Yet still, despite this, people seem to think that they can carry on with business as usual, ignoring any warnings along the way. They're essentially risking the jobs of other grades who have no part in this and those in other grades may ending up paying the ultimate price for someone elses game of Russian roulette.

The NTA do not set expectations of what staff need to do, They simply set the targets that the operators agreed to meet when signing the contract and the operator needs to manage their organisation/staff in a way that allows them to meet the targets. The NTA are not a party to this dispute, this is about Dublin Bus structuring it's workforce to meet it's contractually obliged objectives and to win future tenders. It is a matter for Dublin Bus and it's employees, not the NTA.

If Dublin Bus signed a contract which they deemed as being 'unreasonable' or they knew there was parts of the contract that they were not able to deliver in reality, then they shouldn't have signed the contract and instead should have attempted to re-negotiate it or simply walk away from it. All this is neither here or there though, since I do not think for one second think that Dublin Bus would sign a contract to deliver something they knew they couldn't.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117752264#Comment_117752264

my point is that my belief is that the NTA are likely to be the one setting unrealistic targets as part of the contract, then it being dublin bus genuinely being unable to meet the targets because of work practices or anything else.

the NTA don't need to be a party to a dispute between an operator and its staff, either in general, or for me to hold my belief.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117752470#Comment_117752470

I believe that DB signed the contract in good faith.

The targets you speak about were known when Dublin Bus signed the contract, who by signing the contract, agreed that they were possible and would meet them. If they did not think this, they they should not be signing the contract. But they did.

If you say Dublin Bus knew the targets were not possible to deliver, but signed an agreement to anyway, then you are essentially making the accusation that Dublin Bus have made an agreement in bad faith, which I don't believe at all.

The point of view you are putting across is not logical or credible and shows a lack of understanding of how contracts work.

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117752470#Comment_117752470

This is gibberish

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117753142#Comment_117753142

no it isn't

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117752583#Comment_117752583

i'm not saying anything of the sort, as if i believed such, which i don't, i would say so.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755565#Comment_117755565

Care to explain why Dublin Bus signed a contract that according to you, was clearly not achievable?

If you don't think it was in bad faith then the only other way a party would sign a contract that they couldn't deliver would be because they did not have the knowledge, expertise or judgement to make sound business decisions and signed a contract without giving it proper and full consideration of the implications of it and how they would achieve it.

So if you're going to persist with your gibberish and nonsensical argument and illogical theory, can you please decide if it is either bad faith or incompetence that is the reason that DB signed a contract that according to you, they are not able to meet, because it has to be one or the other, surely.

I really start to feel for the those garage operatives, mechanics, inspectors and office staff that may lose their job through no fault of their own in the future if this kind of debate is reflective of those who rejected the deal.

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755554#Comment_117755554

It is. There may well be a good point in it but it's utterly unintelligible

dublinman1990

The Dublin Bus drivers have really made a major fail here in how they looked at this deal. It really shouldn't be about what superiority drivers have as an employee of the operator going forward. It is about how their employer can sustain and afford that future for themselves & for rest of their colleagues if they want to make future bids to give them an opportunity to actually tender for the new BusConnects routes in 2024.

There should be no reason to suggest making a compromise here if there is no suitable wriggle room available in keeping things the way they are if Dublin Bus are not able to remain in a position to maintain competitiveness in the medium term for all of their staff. The DB management have essentially made the choice to say to their staff members, with their proposed deal in hand, that they had to make huge decisions so they can continue to sustain their future as a bus company while they continue to serve customers who live and work in our own capital city & in the greater area of Dublin.

The DB management have effectively implied with the language that was written within this deal that their own victorian marking-in system for their drivers from it's very beginning of it's inception is now grossly unsustainable & unaffordable to make the operator survive in the future.

And Dublin Bus drivers who are in this situation seem to think it's not a major issue when they vote for this deal while it lingers over their heads. I really don't understand that mentality at all in how it could be classed as sensible. If bus drivers in the private sector who work here & in the UK were thinking that this type of deal from Dublin Bus wouldn't be acceptable & sustainable in the long run to keep an operator's business going in the future; what could they say about it if they had the chance to vote on it? Would they actually have the ego in themselves to vote it down if their colleagues were trying to keep their jobs secure to keep their future in the company; realistically they would say no to doing that because they would be foolish in expressing that viewpoint. They would vote yes in this deal to stick with it at all costs.

So who is going to win this argument if things go right or wrong for either side. Will it be Dublin Bus or the privates? All I could say is take your pick. There will be some big winners & losers here but the battle won't be pretty.

StreetLight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117760237#Comment_117760237

No, the drivers looked at it in terms of work-life balance. The sacrifice being asked was too much to pay.

Leo Varadkar's comments on how frontline workers should be applauded and compensated for keeping the country moving during the pandemic rang very hollow when Dublin Bus management wanted their employees, who already work anti-social hours and deal with some absolute scum, to work even harder.

I'd say the drivers said "enough is enough".

The seniority aspect of your argument doesn't wash when virtually all drivers, senior and otherwise, voted the same way.

ax586

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117760344#Comment_117760344

Well said Streetlight

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117760344#Comment_117760344

Ye frontline workers should be praised, however they should not be immune to change. If another company can do the job better than Dublin Bus it would negligent of NTA not to use the alternative.

As a Bus user and it goes for most users we want the best service possible. In the short to medium term if you want to talk about improving public transport in Dublin, you have to look at how buses are run. Its the biggest component of public transport. That unfortunately also means looking at driver working practices. Drivers have done a very good job over Covid however it does not mean they should be exempt from change(Covid radically changed work practices overnight for a huge portion of the population). Given that the unions accepted the deal its something they recognise. All that's going to happen it that when change eventually comes, Dublin Bus will be in a worse position financially and there is a decent chance that the deal be facing is worse than the one that has been rejected.

StreetLight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117761757#Comment_117761757

I don't believe drivers are against change per sé. But not at the expense of a decent quality of life, which was the very thing under attack by management and even the drivers' own unions.

The stance of the unions' acceptance of the deal did not make it right and they appear to have got it badly wrong on this occasion. It's no wonder drivers are upset. Now that they know what management think of them, they probably wouldn't care if Dublin Bus in its current guise folded.