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Dublin Bus tables conditional pay offer of 12%

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,299 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    The Indo is reporting in a paywall article today that Dublin Bus have tabled a pay deal of up to 12pc when they are going through the new upcoming changes under BusConnects. According to the snippet of the article being written by Fearghal O'Connor; the plans include implementing a new operating model & work practice changes to compete with drivers working in the private sector when the NTA is making progress on BusConnects.

    The actual pay side of the deal for the drivers is proposing to include a 6.5% pay rise over the next three years including an extra 1% retrospective payment. Drivers will also be entitled to receive a further increase of 4.5% in their pay if any identified cost-saving targets in the company are to be found until then. In order to do this; Dublin Bus want their drivers to sign up to the new work practice changes by giving up their premium payments when working on Sundays & Bank Holidays. Do you think the Dublin Bus drivers will give up their premium payments by signing up to these changes?




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,666 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Irish Times has more details including backing from both unions who don't like elements and warned of adverse consequences and have acknowledged DB could lose future tenders to private operators.

    Would I be generalizing if I suggested older drivers are not happy?

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/dublin-bus-drivers-offered-15-pay-rises-in-return-for-big-work-practice-changes-1.4630161



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    Older drivers were over privileged by the working conditions. This has to be over. I'm of course don't deny that there is are things to improve: toilets and canteens, safety etc. But I don't like the idea of privileges such as better working hours for drivers working longer in the company. A better pay based on experience and performance make sense. But public transport is much needed in the early and late hours too for the passengers. That, as well as lack of bus stop shelters and a better payment system, is very much needed. And drivers should understand - this is the nature of public transport. I'm glad BusConnects brings us better operating hours.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭rx8


    As a driver,I'm mostly in favour now of Bus-Connects, more buses, more jobs, all designed to help have less cars in the city. This is not about newer or older drivers. It's about holding on to hard won conditions over a long number of years. The LRC threw out a LUAS proposal a few years ago because the shifts were too long and now we're facing longer shifts in an even more challenging position.

    What I'm not in favour of, is vague promises of pay increases which are linked to indeterminate savings which will be overseen by a committe and who can then decide, sorry lads, you're not going to get this years increase due to a lack of savings. This deal will be a disaster for the work/life balance of ALL drivers. There's already a citywide petition to try to get both union executives removed and replaced by people who will have the drivers interest at the top of the agenda instead of feathering their own nests with promises of cushy NTA jobs in the future if they can sell it to the staff.

    The only firm pay increase in this deal is 3%, which is mostly backdated to 2019. The full figure seems to change from day to day depending on who you talk to. Somewhere between 12 and 15 %. 6% of it is performance related and not guaranteed, and the rest is at a rate of 1% a year up to 2025.

    One thing is certain, O'Learys days are numbered after his blubbering appearance on Newstalk this morning trying to sell this deal to the public and the media to make the drivers look like greedy feckers when it's not accepted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 181 ✭✭Contrails


    Before I worked on the buses I could never understand the level of anger and how heated things got with DB drivers during pay talks. Now that I am a driver, I still can't understand it.

    I've read the document back to front and all the FAQ's that are coming along too and I just don't see any reason for so much upset. A bit more work for a bit more pay. Wages up over 50k per annum. Some people are foaming at the mouth with rage. I used to work in an industry where we'd get giddy over a 1.25 percent increase in pay that was linked to your performance.

    Alot of drivers seem to have this tunnel vision, laser focused on luas drivers. Our job is harder but they get paid more. Sure that's a bit annoying, but my old jobs were much more stressful and difficult than being a driver and I was paid significantly less. So should I be on less now than what I was back then??

    I'd love to be on 60k per annum but I know full well if I am, DB will never win another tender again because we'll be too expensive. If you increase driver wages, Inspectors etc will be looking for an increase in line with them and we'd be on well more than Bus Eireann which would not go down well.

    I do fear if this gets messy enough it'll eventually be the end of Dublin Bus. Alot of people just don't understand that that is a possibility now. The NTA will seek the best value for the tax payer and if its not Dublin Bus then good luck. After all the moaning and whinging about longer hours and late finishes, everyone might just end up doing it anyway but for even less money than they're on now but for Arriva, GoAhead, Stage Coach, First Bus or any other.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭Kyleboy


    I think you need to read the 32 page document again, it's not just about pay, you will lose a lot of terms and conditions for your 12%(not guaranteed) pay increase.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,981 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    perhapse but it won't be for long, wages will be forced up at those companies as well to almost near db levels in the end, assuming ireland is such a critical market that these companies even stick around and don't walk first.

    profit v good staff wages, there isn't really much difference between both expenses, and as well as that tenders seem to be decided here on both price and quality.

    if the worst came to the worst, db would likely still exist as an operator of last resort with staff transferring where and when required, as it would be stupidity of the highest order to not have a back up for operators who will walk from a nice but in no way critical market when push comes to shove.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults


    It might not be a critical market, but it's easy money for a multinational with a relatively 'lean' business model to come in here and provide at least as good a service as Dublin Bus. They're going nowhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,981 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    easy money yes, however in the long term enough money without likely slow increases in funding and with a government who would be happy to cut funding at the drop of a hat, i wouldn't bank on it even though the privates would be less likely to stand for it then the state ones.

    realistically the state operators are now quite lean but have the ability to go further when needed, which is what we need.

    not forgetting as i said that the wage bill will be rising at those companies should they enter here eventually, and go ahead will be having a wage rise too a proper level eventually.

    the services are ultimately specified now so it actually doesn't matter how good the operator is or isn't as long as they meet those specifications.

    if the "they aren't going anywhere" is in reference to the multi-national operators, if certain conditions are met they would absolutely walk, it has been done in other countries and we aren't special such that they would never do it in the right circumstances.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    I noticed you used the plural operators there. You're saying all operators will walk away and all at the exact same time. Bold statement you made there. Care to share some examples where all operators walked away and all at the exact same time?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults


    Unless government policy deliberately forces them to leave (highly unlikely), GAI is here for the long haul, and constantly looking to expand their operations here. Yes, wages will be (and have already been) forced up as a result of competition for staff, but they seem unperturbed by that. As things stand, the pay gap between the two companies isn't that significant, especially after tax. The deal put forward by DB is not a good one for drivers (especially those marked in, or close to being marked in), but it's better than the alternative. The unions in DB know this, so they're not prepared to march the drivers to the top of this particular hill.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Great to see the strangle-hold unions have on transport broken. Let's see more of this across the public services.



  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults


    I'm not sure that forcing people's working conditions downwards is ever worth celebrating.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    It is when it means cheaper, more reliable transport system.



  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults


    Devaluing the work done by skilled transport staff won't result in a more reliable system.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Seems to be working so far, with more operators being available to operate the routes and in a place to take on more routes should the NTA wish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,981 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    the plural is to show that no company will stay somewhere at any cost, it doesn't mean they will all leave at the exact same time and for the same reasons, but rather if certain conditions are met then they would take such action.

    but of course you knew that.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Great, I'm glad you recognize that if one company leaves or is unwilling to deliver, another can take its place



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,981 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    here for the long haul because the conditions are good, but not here at any and all costs.

    good strong unions are the major reason for wage rises and continued wage rises thankfully along with the existence of state operators who understand the necessity of good wages.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,981 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    no such strangle hold exists so nothing has been broken.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,981 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    given such isn't going to make that happen then no .

    the only thing that will create a cheaper more reliable system is greater funding and vehicles and staff to operate the vehicles along with the required other support staff.

    Post edited by end of the road on

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,981 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    that's not devaluation of workers rights conditions terms and pay working.

    that is contractual obligations meaning a reliable stable funding model for operators working, meaning private operators can take the risk of taking up state contracts for operating transport services.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 Kyriakos


    Here is a few talking points from the pay deal, I expect it to be soundly rejected.

    Numbers have been crunched and its not good

    If accepted drivers will actually earn 1% less than current pay, I kid you not!

    The pay rises in the years ahead are linked to DB turning a profit, no such clause in BE or IE and that is because they never turn a profit, and truth be told DB are in dire condition now after covid so that ensures next to no chance of meeting these requirements

    Start a 6:00 in depot and pull bus out and head to terminus to enter service at 6:30, well those 30 minutes are now unpaid! Only get paid for when bus driven in service!

    These are just some of the problems , many more , I will go into detail if this post gains traction and generates a discussion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime


    Post the official documents ? The site can now take pdf etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,468 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    how about instead of posting rumour and potential half truths link an actual document.

    the unpaid driving from depot to terminus for example is absolute BS, illegal under law and has no chance of happening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭ax586




  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭LastStop


    A lot of what he said is wrong from reading the article.

    Future pay rise depends on cost savings not profit. There's a big difference.

    I don't see how anyone would be on less money, People who work a lot of OT might have less earning power but that's not the same either.

    It shows how poorly management and unions have communicated what is on the table and what they hope to achieve from the deal. As a result, rumor and hearsay is running out a clear winner.


    And if DB drivers are so unhappy with what's on offer, they should be having a discussion with their representatives and not with strangers on the internet if they hope to improve the deal. If you're trying to gauge public support for a strike, in this covid environment where so many are still unemployed from lockdowns, I can tell you the support you'll receive is zero.



  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults


    I'm not seeing anything particularly bad there. Certainly not as bad as the alternative - losing more routes to private operators.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,981 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    i can tell you otherwise, it won't be 0.

    it will be about the same as every other strike, with the usuals using covid this time for their excuse to complain.

    drivers have to do whatever they need to do, they are not responsible for someone else being unemployed nor is it their problem and they can't not do what they need to do because others haven't a job.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,981 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    given as i said the likely hood is that wages and all else will be forced up at the private operators, dublin bus are unlikely to lose much routes to private operators unless they actually screw up or the private has a better tender on the quality aspect which i believe is the major aspect.

    ireland is not like the UK for example, private operators operating state routes won't be let away with paying low wages i have a good feeling.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



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