Neil Francis

Deusexmachina

Anyhow, the man is sacked now. He paid dearly for his bad joke.

In a twist to this story, the Daily Star (a noble publication we can all agree) had a story in 2010 where Gavin Henson said it was racist to slag him about his orange tan.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/gavin-henson-fake-tan-taunts-18223988

Lock them up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117664192#Comment_117664192

Get up outta that, it is a fact that rugby is primarily played in private fee paying schools. There is nothing whatsoever stopping state run schools from introducing a rugby programme. That is not elitist.

Ironically, looking at your avatar, golf was seen as an elitist sport, would an article on the threat of change to golf clubs be seen as elitist?

crossman47

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117664055#Comment_117664055

Your last sentence destroys any credibility you had. As regards NF, he was a good analyst and I will miss his insights.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117664055#Comment_117664055

No, he has proven himself beyond any reasonable doubt to in fact be textbook racist.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117664399#Comment_117664399

He was good in the way that if he picked the winners of 6 games on a friday preview show he would get 7 of them wrong.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117664403#Comment_117664403

And there is the most worrying aspect of this conversation, stuff like this actually does a disservice to those who suffer real discrimination due to race by diluting the term to the point where numpties see comments as innocuous as made by NF as racism beyond reasonable doubt.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117664399#Comment_117664399

What was good about his analysis? What insight did he bring?

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117664423#Comment_117664423

Or its just racist, as are other things and him being called up on his attitudes and ignorance doesnt lessen any other incident because every incident can be judged in isolation.

This may not be the worst incidence of such we have witnessed in the last month but that doesnt lessen it.

irishproduce

Have to say I always looked forward to reading his pieces in the Sunday independent. Yesterday was the first edition I've read without his piece. And I missed it. Hope he finds a way to get back to commentary. I'd buy another publication if he was writing there.

I thought he was a poor columnist with limited insights into the modern game and a proclivity for irrelevant and not particularly interesting tangents.

I had long stopped reading his content and I suspect that if his contribution to the Independents circulation or clicks were substantial he might have survived this incident. I don't think what he said was intentionally racist, I do think it was intentionally demeaning, stupid and crass.

I've no issue with him being dropped by the independent, his tired clichés around players appearances married with some of his historical statements alone would lead me to disassociate myself with him but for me it's the absence of meaningful or qualified commentary in relation to rugby in the 2020's that merits his departure.

There is no woke mob, PC brigade or otherwise. He made a really stupid, poorly researched statement that brought the independent into disrepute. I believe he did so accidentally, but it merely highlights what a poor columnist he is. If he called a Filipino an Oompa Loompa that would indeed be racists, there is absolutely no question about that - it's a derogatory statement about race. In this instance, he called a half Filipino an Oompa Loompa, does that make it not racist? Absolutely not, but Francis's has well established himself as being a poorly informed columnist and for this reason I think it's reasonable to accept ignorance as a defence.

To those in this thread screeching about cancel culture, catch yourselves on - Francis is entirely responsible for his own stupid downfall, he brought this on himself by being bad at his job and a sneer. The independent were totally and reasonably within their rights to jettison him and idiots and bots on twitter would have influenced them far less than the statements by Harlequins and the Lions. He is facing the consequences of his own actions and those consequences are both reasonable and entirely predictable. Stop trying to turn him into a victim, you just look as foolish as Francis has been.

To those calling him a racist, perhaps he is - but in this instance there very much is reasonable doubt and if we're being honest with ourselves that should give you a bit of pause - even if you very much don't like the guy. I find it very hard to believe that Francis would refer to someone's complexion in a derogatory fashion if he knew they were mixed race as it's not something he has ever done before. I find it very easy to believe that he would refer to someone's complexion in a derogatory fashion to mock them and undermine their talents as he's done so countless times before.

Either way - I think this thread has run it's course.

sydthebeat

as far as Francis' "racism" is concerned, well all we can do is look at past histories to see if theres a pattern

his vitriol against Akis debut in a green shirt which he called "morally and ethically wrong" is a stark contrast to his relative silence on Stander and Paynes debuts. His only denigration of them as "not irishmen" came after some very complientary words on their abilities and personalities. None such nice words for Bundee.

His ludicrous claim that Jonah Lomu "contracted" his kidney disorder because he over used creatine was a particularly disgraceful and ignorant article.

him having to come out and proclaim his "wasnt racist" after his comments about the french back in 2018

his assertion that pacific islanders are all dangerous tacklers, incapable of changing and questions if they could feel 'shame'

so at this stage with Francis if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck.. its a duck. Hes likely to be the worst kind of racist, the "im not racist but..." type that frequent all corners of Irish society who are incapable of recognising that commenting in a derogatory manner on skin colour is wrong, or using sweeping generalisations or perpetuating stereotypes about particularly races of people is acceptable because "sure thats what we hear everywhere"

his absence from national attention should be celebrated as he was a stain on irish rugby journalism.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117667947#Comment_117667947

Complete bollix. He has regularly railed against foreign born players coming to the provinces for money, then being given Irish caps, including Stander. In fact, on the last word a couple of weeks ago he lamented Stander packing his bags and heading home as soon as he gave up rugby, there was no possibility that he would stay and coach/offer anything in return to Irish rugby. I have also heard him praise Aki for his ability, and commitment to Connaught/living in Galway. So stop trying to tar him with more made up racist crap.

sydthebeat

😉 nothing made up in my post, all freely available for those who want to look for it .... but hey, you do you....

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117670014#Comment_117670014

As the man said, go look it all up :)

You heard what you wanted to hear, nothing more.

Former Former Former

Francis was always against project players and even granny rule players. He had a piece recently enough to mark Roux's departure iirc.

It's not right to say that he criticised Aki's selection and not any of the white guys because he's a racist. It's just not true.

Plenty of ammo to give Francis stick without making it up.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117670735#Comment_117670735

"It's not right to say that he criticised Aki's selection and not any of the white guys because he's a racist. It's just not true."

Well it's a good job I didn't say that then, isn't it....

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117670924#Comment_117670924

What you said was :

"as far as Francis' "racism" is concerned, well all we can do is look at past histories to see if theres a pattern

his vitriol against Akis debut in a green shirt which he called "morally and ethically wrong" is a stark contrast to his relative silence on Stander and Paynes debuts."

I'm sorry but I don't see what else you could have meant other than to imply that he regarded Aki differently because of his skin colour.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117670924#Comment_117670924

You did heavily implying it tho, Syd.

In fact, ironically, I’d go as far as saying it was way more heavily implied than Francis’ initial statement implied he was racist.

sydthebeat

"His only denigration of them as "not irishmen" came after some very complientary words on their abilities and personalities. None such nice words for Bundee."

Just reposting as obviously some people missed this first time.... As this was posted after

" It's not right to say that he criticised Aki's selection and not any of the white guys"

So you can clearly see I said he criticised the white guys. I actually used the word denigrate.

Bass Reeves

What I find really interesting is the amount of posters that accept that NF was not a racist but also consider it ok that he was sacked because of what he said and that racism was used as an excuse.

It's also interesting that in many sports now image rights are becoming a factor in the amount players are paid.

It is recognised now that David Beckham earned more from his image rights as a footballer than from his footballing skills when he was a players.

Even today he is still earning on image rights.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2021/jan/21/beckhams-pay-themselves-40000-a-day-and-hand-over-1m-to-unicef

"What I find really interesting is the amount of posters that accept that NF was not a racist but also consider it ok that he was sacked because of what he said and that racism was used as an excuse."

That's a pretty weak take. What Francis said was stupid and very much racist - he was just too poorly prepared to realise. If he wasn't being a complete child and commenting on the appearance of a 22 year old then he would still be churning out below average content.

I'm ok he was sacked because he isn't informed, funny or insightful and has a history of prejudicial commentary. Calling a half Filipino an Oomah Loompa is very much racist to the point he had to clarify and explain himself and apologise. There is zero doubt that he brought the Independent into disrepute and as such they were entirely justified to fire him.

I've no idea what argument you are trying to make in relation to Beckhams image rights, I can guess but it smells like straw clutching to me.

ec18

he could just has easily have said Smith doesn't have the experience to be in a lions test team....same point, not fired but he went the low road and tried to be funny/edgy

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671839#Comment_117671839

I think he was trying to say that Smith wasn't tough enough or battle-hardened enough to face the South Africans in a test, but he obviously made a complete mess of expressing it.

Mocking a guy for his appearance, as if that means anything when it comes to performing on the pitch, was a misplaced critique.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671246#Comment_117671246

Ok, but you're still saying he criticized Aki more due to his race. Fair? Personally, I don't think this is true. (And, just to be clear, I completely disagree with Franno on this).

For example, here's an article on CJ Stander's retirement where he used the exact same "morally and ethically wrong" phrase that you took issue with when he leveled it at Aki.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/it-is-ethically-and-morally-wrong-to-trade-a-symbol-of-our-nation-a-green-jersey-under-the-flag-of-convenience-40210378.html

I really hate defending Franno here. I really dislike his style of writing and commentary. His reflex is to be puerile and go for the cheap-shot/gag, and he seems ill-informed to me. Case in point, his homophobic comments were pretty appalling.

But I really don't see the argument that he criticised Aki more because of his race. He's been pretty consistent when it came to project players.

Ash.J.Williams

he's a locker room dinosaur journo , not much place for them these days

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671985#Comment_117671985

i was talking about their debuts

his vitriol aimed at aki was markedly different to anything he said at the time of stander and paynes debuts

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117672017#Comment_117672017

So you think that makes him racist even tho he's since said the exact same thing about Stander?

elefant

If he didn't realise Smith was half-Filipino, and so a disparaging comment on his skin colour was hugely inappropriate, why didn't he say so in his apology?

It's hard to defend his slip as pure ignorance when he doesn't even claim this himself.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117667947#Comment_117667947

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117672017#Comment_117672017

I don't know if this point was already mentioned, but it has to be considered as well that there would have been an accumulative effect when it came to criticising the IRFU's project player policy.

The first or second instance might get by with a minimum of complaint purely because of the low percentage of them, but add in a 3rd, 4th or 5th project player into the Irish matchday 15 or 23 and suddenly like with the Eddie Jones comment of "A United Nations"* Irish team it starts to become more of an issue for Irish supporters/journalists that would have criticism for the project player system.

Not wishing to derail this thread to start arguing over the merits or otherwise of the project player system, only with regards to Neil Francis, I don't think it is necessarily true that he had a problem with Aki more than other project players due to his physical appearance, maybe it was more so that we have never had an issue with producing centres and also the increasing percentage of the Irish 23 and the costs involved was becoming more alarming at that point.

Notwithstanding the above, he did indeed leave himself open to accusations with his comments, perhaps the editors should have insisted that he articulate that it was the project player system he was criticising and to include a disclaimer that he was not being racist to make it clear.

*https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/nov/21/ireland-dismiss-united-nations-jibe-from-england-coach-eddie-jones