Prosecutions of British military veterans in Northern Ireland.

political analyst

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/courts/trial-of-ex-soldierdennis-hutchings-to-go-ahead-as-planned-40577993.html

The killing of John Pat Cunningham was investigated by the RUC, which questioned Hutchings and the other soldiers involved. It was originally decided not to prosecute.

So how is it that there could have been new evidence on which the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) in Northern Ireland decided to prosecute him?

The same question could be asked about the prosecution of ex-soldier David Jonathan Holden, who is accused of the manslaughter of Aidan McAnespie. Holden was charged with manslaughter in the aftermath of the 1988 killing but it was dropped on the grounds of insufficient evidence. He pleaded guilty to negligent discharge of a firearm.

If a civilian police force (even if it was the RUC!) investigated and the prosecutor decided not to take the case to court then why has it been decided to prosecute in the past few years? It's not like there is DNA evidence involved!

maccored

maybe they found info the RUC had overlooked. they were good at overlooking things that might incriminate soldiers, members of the UDR and themselves

maccored

first post on the new board and it doubles it!

political analyst

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117619760#Comment_117619760

The fact remains that the RUC was a civilian force under the auspices of the Northern Ireland Office and so there was no conflict of interest regarding the investigation of killings carried out by soldiers of the regular armed forces (as opposed to the UDR, whose soldiers didn't live in barracks). Furthermore, nobody could accuse the RUC of being favourable towards the UDR - just ask Neil Latimer!

maccored

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117620348#Comment_117620348

you are painting a picture of an RUC which would never bend when it came to honesty and integrity. We all know that never existed.

Suckit

Remember the statues that were toppled last year, when it seems people discovered History's sordid past...

It would be interesting to make those same people aware of things like this.. Would they agree with how things have gone, or would they disagree..

They apparently have most of the answers after centuries of getting everything wrong.

SupaCat95

Thought these investigations were all gone with the Good Friday Agreement. I dont see the Paramilitaries (on all sides) offering up any information.

political analyst

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626297#Comment_117626297

If the RUC had a sectarian bias then why did it arrest UDR soldiers?

political analyst

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626304#Comment_117626304

No. Investigations and trials still took place. Anyone convicted of a Troubles-related offence and a member of a paramilitary organisation that has ceased fire is released on licence after two years. Clifford McKeown, who murdered Michael McGoldrick, is still in prison because no group claims him.

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628219#Comment_117628219

because its job?

How did the gun taken from a uvf member,whom was also the son of an ruc officer at a checkpoint,make its way back to the uvf and end up being used to shoot up sean grahams bookies??

And why is the only person ever arrested in relation that massacre,a survivor arrested last year for laying flowers?

political analyst

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628266#Comment_117628266

What checkpoint?

maccored

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628219#Comment_117628219

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-57918718

As I say - they werent great when it came to investigating anyone on their side - including the UDA

Brendan Bendar

So we are going to have back and forth for the next year or two discussing stuff that happened 50 years ago.

hmmm …the lawyers will be delighted, I’m sure.

And the results:

Nothing except big wedges for the vested interests.

who pays…………yes the taxpayer. Probably the largest coterie who had nothing to do with the events.

Lovely

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117652973#Comment_117652973

https://sluggerotoole.com/2021/07/15/sinn-fein-disowns-the-amnesty-deal-its-been-asking-for-incessantly-for-over-twenty-years/#more-136861

They are happier discussing stuff that happened 50 years ago, rather than examining the hypocritical u-turns in more recent times.

"Yet, Boris Johnson has only delivered what SF incessantly pleaded for from Blair, immunity from prosecution. He even offered it to them publicly in 2006, an offer they only abandoned when the SDLP pointed out it would cover state actors."

Scoundrel

From a cold hard clinical historical point of view I think it would be best to draw a line under it blanket amnesty for everyone no matter how distasteful and move on but that's easy for me to say having had no loved ones killed or maimed during that time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117662592#Comment_117662592

I think a massive tribunal is what is required on similar basis/offering to saville tribunal (maybe on a year by year basis,or county by county basis)

People forget soldier f (and rest of paras) had been offered immunity for partaking in saville,all they had to do was tell the truth....

quite why the cps only took the extreme low hanging fruit of soldier f and not the others for prosectution is perplexing

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117664898#Comment_117664898

The problem with that is that not a single person in either government believes that SF and the IRA will tell the truth to such a tribunal. That's why it hasn't happened.

As a recent Irish Times article said "A disavowal of past violence is an essential part of laying the moral foundations for a united Ireland. Otherwise, how could former Ulster unionists feel remotely secure?" This disavowal is needed from Sinn Fein, and not the mealy-mouthed attempt to suggest that all violence is wrong, ownership of the wrongs that they and their followers have committed is what is needed.

That is slightly off-topic, but the recent Lucid Talk Poll was interesting.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/amnesty-for-troubles-era-crime-rejected-by-nationalists-and-unionists-40459893.html

"Some 45% of respondents who took part in the Belfast Telegraph-LucidTalk poll said there should be no amnesty and all cases should be pursued under the normal processes of the law.

Some 29% said there should be a complete amnesty for everyone and society should move on. Another 21% said there should be no amnesty, but there should be a different, more lenient 'legacy policy' for members of the security forces, as opposed to everyone else."

The last point is particularly interesting.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117669251#Comment_117669251

The evidence we have suggests that the IRA are more than willing to take part in a Truth Recovery process.

I read this document before I decided to vote for SF in a GE.

I know you probably won't read it as you are part of an establishment that won't allow SF's mandate under any circumstances. But it adamantly calls bullshit on the trope in the first part of your post. The power swap and the British do not want a Truth Recovery process for the same reason the British want an amnesty for their colluders and killers.

iii) This type of mechanism can be trusted The ICLVR demonstrates that this type of mechanism can be trusted. That the ICLVR has been seen to work by those intended to engage with the ICIR mechanism is important: It’s something practical that you can point to, to the ex-combatant or former security force constituency to say: this thing can work. Because the misgivings for them will be, well why…should we if we’re liable to be prosecuted…you can say: this worked.6 Indeed, one senior Republican ex-combatant interviewed for this research elucidated this: we in the political ex-prisoner community did…a series of meetings and talks with people…about…how they would feel about becoming involved in a process of truth recovery…what we had in mind was some sort of a process whereby people on a collective basis could be requested to give information to a group of very trusted and confidential comrades…And the example that we used was the process of the recovery of the remains. And in the main, most guys would have been comfortable with that.7 The Importance of Leadership Effective leadership from those involved in these processes is extremely important. With regards the ICLVR, leadership has been essential for both the ICLVR and Republicans engaging with the search process. Leadership has been described as: Crucial…once the Republican leadership – both Sinn Féin and the IRA – engaged with this issue properly and created their own structures in order to manage it, that’s when the issue begins to be resolved…It doesn’t work until you have that top-down commitment to making it work. So it’s absolutely central.8

dempster180418.pdf (niassembly.gov.uk)

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117669312#Comment_117669312

You were foolish enough to trust what you called the "power swap" parties for 50 years. I can certainly tell you that I won't be fooled by SF's support for a truth process and given I have voted Labour, PDs, Greens and others for most of the last 40 years, I would trust my own judgement more than yours.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117669347#Comment_117669347

I don't trust any party or any government, that is why I stand fully behind the need for an opposition fulfilling it's function.

You trust away in your own judgement, just try and evidence the rubbish you talk the next time.

The evidence shows that once a process was established the IRA did what they said they would, trusted it and took part in it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117669251#Comment_117669251

I mean like,if they are offered immunity ala the paras,ive no doubt but they will.....seems to me,they are much more honourable than soldier f and co......have you reason to doubt their testimony to the smithwick tribunal,and what do yous base it upon??

Like rest of your entire post is basically a bizzare soapbox of little to no relevence to the post it quoted🤣

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117669639#Comment_117669639

are you saying you believe that the ira and sf are honorable ?

your really going to stand over that statement ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671188#Comment_117671188

compared to the paras and the british government what protects em,yeah no hassle

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671201#Comment_117671201

and thus ends my interest in being involved in a discussion with you mate

enjoy your fantasy world

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671211#Comment_117671211

Why?

People are allowed have differing views,tell me how labeling and attempting to frame innocent people as gunmen and bombers to cover up a massacre places the brits as more honourable,in your eyes?

Tell me how its more honourable for the british to change the law,so as war crimes committed in front of hundreds of witnesses and admitted to by soldier f,can avoid prosectution?

If you feel the above is fantasy,feel free to rebuke it,with facts and logic

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671220#Comment_117671220

my post was very clear , if you lac the ability to understand that , well im not surprised but then its on you

im not even gona start to explain that to you, its below the standard required for a discussion

cya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671254#Comment_117671254

Agh right slink away,when presented with anyone who dare not agree with yous

Heaven forbid anyone dare critise and point out the conduct of the british around this issue is deeply dishonourable and worst than that of the shinners....theres no justification for it imo,but as you say yourself "its on you"

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671188#Comment_117671188

There are plenty who will stand over that statement, notwithstanding the failure of SF and the IRA to deal with the issues of Mairia Cahill, Paul Quinn, the disappeared, etc., not to mention their repeated lies about Gerry McCabe.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117672881#Comment_117672881

Probably would ask for proof of this....but yanno dont want to expose your imagination running wild again🤪🤪🤪

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117672881#Comment_117672881

there are plenty who will vote SF in the next election - thats what really sticks in your graw. you have already shown many times you have very little understanding of what occurred in the north or what the IRA etc were about.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671268#Comment_117671268

the issue is with your disgusting glorification of child killers and peado protecting criminals mate nothing else , your happy to be that kind of person dont try to drag me into a whos scummier contest for your own gratification

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117675024#Comment_117675024

Will you stop.

You could accuse any supporter/voter for any party of the above.

Trite nonsense to avoid having to debate an issue.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117675024#Comment_117675024

Where anywhere have i glorified this,or anything,only that i view someone as more honourable than the paras/british government surronding bloody sunday

.....speaking of child killers....how many did yous heroic paras kill on blood sunday or throughout the troubles??

And how is changing laws to cover up war crimes now deemed honourable by you goys

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117675195#Comment_117675195

Whenever the likes of Jamie Bryson or posters on here don't want to confront the fact that state collusion and killing is fundamentally different to paramilitary killing the 'glorification' nonsense eventually comes out.

Programme on ballymurphy massacre on rte 1 now

https://mobile.twitter.com/buff_egan/status/1420490092754391041

trashcan

Yeah, watching. Appalling stuff. Murdering bastards.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117675967#Comment_117675967

Made in 2018, took RTE 3 years to show it.

What more can be said about that.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117675024#Comment_117675024

This x1000

Many SF/PIRA supporters will cry foul when the British did something sneaky.

Yet, when its one of their own, well hey, as the poster you are referring to said once, 'It is not a crime to fight for Ireland', or the best yet, it was a war and regrettable things happened, as they do in all wars.... or something like that.

I guess blowing up babies and children isn't a crime then, as it's for 'da cause'.

Grade A hypocrites many of them are.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676407#Comment_117676407

'Something sneaky'????????

Jesus what is wrong with you people.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676418#Comment_117676418

Kinda like saying, when a bomb kills a 3-year-old toddler, saying it was worth it for the cause, as it helped Nationalists.... eh?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676429#Comment_117676429

Here you go with the stock lies again rather than just call out government murder and collusion.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676438#Comment_117676438

I have been on record saying that people who are guilty of such things, be it Solder F, or whoever should be brought before the courts and sentenced.

But I am not a fool either. SF will ham this stuff up for political purposes, while they protect their own.

SF has it in its power to help the victims of the Guildford and Birmingham bombs for example but refuses to cooperate with that inquiry. Why is that?

You have repeatedly stated there should be no hierarchy of victims, but it seems you care more about the people who pulled the trigger for ideological purposes than anything else, to make political hay out of it.

Using the dead, to garner more votes. That is what people are up to here.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676457#Comment_117676457

Typical reply.

Can't call government murder and collusion for what it was without the tired old...themuns were worse.

Did you see the programme tonight...were those people 'looking for votes' 'Hamming it up'? (There wasn't a SF member on it BTW)

*The IRA have been clear for decades, there will take part in a Truth Recovery process when all the players sit down in an open and transparent process.

That will never happen when the likes of your party allow the British to hide behind obfuscation, and cover up. They have to be pressured to take responsibility for what they done and lead a proper legacy process.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676479#Comment_117676479

Francie, do you support calls for a public inquiry into the Birmingham bombs and would you call for all in SF/PIRA to cooperate with it?

https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/c0nwzn4v761t/birmingham-pub-bombing-inquests

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676487#Comment_117676487

Yes to the inquiry, and emphatic No to calling on anybody to co-operate. Why would they? One sided justice?

I support a full Truth Recovery Process with ALL the players at the table.

Justice for all or do a FG/FF power swap stunt and forget about it all and lock all the testimony away until all are dead and we can have another 100 years of sniping and festering wounds.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676497#Comment_117676497

Haha, so you want one side to be fully transparent, while you are OK with SF/PIRA hiding behind decades of anonymity and protecting the people who murdered 22 innocent civilians.

Case closed for you I think. People can judge for themselves the forked tongue language.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676510#Comment_117676510

Again with the sickening excusing of government killing and collusion.

If you are ok with a government being the same as a paramilitary organisation you go right ahead. YOU are the problem.

I want Truth for all. And that MUST start with 'democratically' elected governments.

You cannot help yourself revealing what you are. You only want the Shinners hurt politically, you don't care about the people here. You are as transparent as the British attempt to give an amnesty to their own.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676550#Comment_117676550

I am not excusing anything. In fact, it appears you want to have a hierarchy of victims here. You want the victims of Bloody Sunday and the like put on a pedestal first and foremost, while you reject any notion that SF/PIRA would cooperate in any investigation where other innocent civilians died.

If you want the 'Truth for all', then why do you reject the notion that SF/PIRA cooperate with any investigation into the Birmingham bombings? It costs nothing to do the right thing.

Ill ask again, why don't you ask SF/PIRA to cooperate with any public inquiry into the Birmingham bombings? Because it may hurt SF?

Thought so!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676672#Comment_117676672

Where have sinn fein called for no cooperation with birmingham bombings,and when did they change the law to cover it up??

Mate,as regards hurting sf,after all this time,its perplexing that liberials still dont get it,people simply dont care,

and want change from decades of ffg misrule (jesus wept,the messing with zappone is basically open contempt for the public imo)

,be that via soc dems or shinners,who remain the largest viable option,its long since time to paraphrase tony holohan,"break the chain of contempt"

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676672#Comment_117676672

I didn't 'reject' any notion.

Read again: I said I would not call on the IRA to enter a process of Truth Recovery on their own.

That HAS to be all players or none.

If that is not clear that is your problem not mine.

Please do not extrapolate that into a hierarchy of victims.

I do have a hierarchy of responsibility though, something wholly missing in your biased and pathetic deflecting blame game, as any reading the thread can see. You and people like you, use victims for political game all the time - the 'selective list of victims of one side'.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676407#Comment_117676407

aye - I see you avoid mentioning when the army kill civilians. typical.