Is there an argument to be made for increasing police firm-handedness in Dublin?

mikethecop

Who was it again that objected to the public order units being allowed to drive in and around temple bar and the inner city because they felt it was intimidation of the young people enjoying he lock down on south William street ?

they really dont have our best interests in mind do they ?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117760049#Comment_117760049

It’s a nice theory, but there’s no realistic chance of that happening when by all accounts even with the skills he has, Jack chose not to employ them to defend himself. Anyone looking at that is unlikely to be thinking it’s a good sport to teach self-defence!

Far more likely scumbags that carry out these sorts of attacks on people are inspired by the likes of scumbags like Conor McGregor - they’re not particularly interested in self-defence, but rather how to sucker-punch innocent people who aren’t expecting it.

The fact that it took Jack Woolley being attacked to highlight the issue means it’ll be back to business as usual by this time next week.

saabsaab

Every night there should be a unit on standby down a side street. I saw this in Bolton many years back about 20 armoured police with batons and riot shields with an armoured van just standing ready for anything to kick off. Nothing did that night.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117762993#Comment_117762993

At least it is being highlighted.

I do wonder is the boardwalk more trouble than it's worth. Most Dubs keep away from it because they know but visitors and tourists don't know.

Removing the boardwalk might improve things a bit along there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117765509#Comment_117765509

I don't think it's just the boardwalk, simply cause umpteen times I've seen problems the other side of the traffic lane also.

It's just that north side juncture perhaps?

Or the mentality and subculture the city council has allowed to fester around that area for decades?

It completely defeats my understanding how this is allowed to happen; carelessness, glamorization of teh "bad boy" subculture by trashy girls who want to get pregnant as early and often as possible so encourage thugs who'll facilitate that?

Affect of Irish alcohol culture on city governance... ?

I like the idea of a unit being on standby, and it's not exactly difficult to implement either. The resources are clearly there but administration is obviously lacking.

I've seen this on the continent every time you get that thug-group "thing", a squad of heavy handed officers put an end to it in double quick time - but then the hill-billys would probably cry out from their den of insecurity about how quashing thug practice in Dublin is turning us into a Robocop style "police state"....

lol

imbéciles

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117762886#Comment_117762886

Eamon Ryan, he didn't like the sight of the public order unit dealing with serious anti-social behaviour on South William Street. The result? The public order unit has by and large been stood down, is no longer allowed to pro-actively patrol the streets, its members barred from making arrests and only allowed to intervene after regular Gardaí come under attack.

Completely reactive policing and disconnected from what the community actually want, in my view anyway.

In fact one time I was catching the bus out to belfield that leaves from bachelors walk and some absolutely drunk-off-his-face grease ball, actually tried to steal my shoulder bag from right in front of me (I'd left it beside me on the side walk as I was waiting).

He was obviously just walking by, saw it, bent down to pick it up and thought an easy nights work.

As he had his back to me and as I was basically looking on all the while, I was lining up my stance to swing a soccer kick in between his legs and score the match winning goal using his nuts.

Just as I was about to release this sidewinder from the next fucking postal code into this POS thief scum bags family jewels, this dude beside me tapped me on the shoulder and assured me if I did what I was about to do, I'd be spending the rest of the night at the garda barracks, and that this drunken imbeciles type were heavily protected by law enforcement from victimization, being "homeless" (despite the fact they get 225 euro into their bank accounts each week from the Irish state).

....and that I'd just have to swallow my pride, ask the dude to "please don't steal my belongings", and leave it at that.

He said he catches the bus from there daily and sees the same type of behavior, all the time, nothing you can do but mind your things and if something goes missing, your problem - thief has impunity.

lol

So again I ask, affect of alcohol culture, trashy girl encouragement, incompetent city council administration.... ??

Kermit.de.frog

The gardai keep saying there is enough patrols and visibility but anyone who spends time in the city center, especially the northside, knows that is just not true. Yeah, you'll see the odd guard, patrol car now and again but mostly you won't see any guards.

MrMusician18

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/two-arrested-after-man-subjected-24721966?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=organic

Another horrific incident to add to the litany of lawlessness affecting the City Centre particularly of late

Kermit.de.frog

The mayor of Dublin was on the radio a few days a go saying "we have to understand the route causes of alcohol and drug abuse"...

I think time has past for this puff talk which is code for doing nothing in the here and now to most people.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/one-gardas-story-of-working-in-dublin-im-hitting-burnout-there-are-not-enough-gardai-on-streets-40772870.html

My opinion on dealing with gangs of youth under 18 is to go after the parents through the welfare system. Set up some threshold whereby after a number of instances parent's welfare is deducted and warnings issued over their housing if the situation is bad enough.

One way or another a serious toughening up is needed.

Mannix Flynn made great points about the reality of the situation in the area on the radio.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PatKennyNT/status/1428436189950922755

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117784251#Comment_117784251

"Route causes of alcohol and drug abuse".

lol, with all due respect to the mayor, that's not exactly going to be his area of expertise.

The day that is understood will revolutionize humanity the world over.

His job would appear more so to MANAGE the issue in the interim whilst we're waiting on this revolutionary scientific development.

To me the most advanced city in the world is up to this point, Amsterdam - so simply follow the functional template they've established - exactly what space-cake Eamon Ryan obstructed; enforcement units to manage and tackle group violence and intimidation which is rife throughout the entire city, free wheeling at this point.

How wonderful would it be to see some gang of scrots just getting "dealt with", exactly as per functional continental cities.

This Mannix dude is claiming it is a case of resources.

Pro-active policing plan.

He seems to think Helen Mac is a f**k up.

Body cams may preclude social media backlash.

Eoin Keegan - DCC manager, making avoidant statements? Administrators have dropped the ball seems to be his primary contention.

What's with the complication?

Enforcement units around the city, and start enforcing. 🤨

Kermit.de.frog

I think it's refreshing to hear a Councillor telling it as it is without the bullsh!t. We need more of that. The Gardai and justice dept need to get the finger out.

What he says is 100% correct. People just will not go in to the city because as things are now the perception is it is not safe. I feel sorry for any tourists/visitors too. If they are not mugged or assaulted the best we get is embarrassment.

It's a complete disgrace and another thing - has anyone heard anything from the Justice minister?

Kermit.de.frog

Apparently some charities are randomly handing out tents. I feel really sorry for anyone like that. Above all living in a tent in the center of the city is incredibly dangerous. :/ Also it may be fine now but if we get a really cold winter it would be a very serious thing for them.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786457#Comment_117786457

You're actually correct Kermit , there's mainstream charities with outreach staff working in conjunction with the Central Placement Device in DCC trying to get rough sleepers off the streets and into accommodation and then there's the Facebook, soup run type charities handing out tents and sleeping bags encouraging individuals to keep rough sleeping.

Kermit.de.frog

Sounds like the most vulnerable people being used to create an image in the city for the public whereby the "charity" gets more money in the end.

Although safety in shelters is obviously an issue I just can't help but think there is a lot of cynicism and manipulation around this issue by vested interests.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117802585#Comment_117802585

Safety in shelters or hostels is regularly rolled out as a reason not to use hostels , there's a variety of different types of hostels and while definitely not for the faint hearted , they are not the end of the world type of environment as portrayed by some groups.

https://www.finegael.ie/actions-to-tackle-anti-social-behaviour-in-dublin-and-improve-community-safety-welcome-madigan/

Sound like lip-service to anyone else;

lol, more CCTV, are they trying to get more footage for their skanger hand puppet twitter page?

Umpteen disturbing scrot and anti-social behavior incidences caught on CCTV, but not a single one of them shows effective intervention.

Youth scumbag culture thrives on fear and intimidation, until the state realizes that responding in kind and putting the "fear of God" into said perpetrators is the EXCLUSIVE effective measure, I can't see anything changing.

Again, I defer to the wonderful city of Amsterdam, you know how many sick/crazy assclowns wander the streets there?

But it's perfectly safe at all times of day or night?

Put that in perspective of their enforcement protocol and it quickly becomes evident there's only one way to get it done (+ nobody complains about a brigade of Robocop stunt doubles running the place either).

enricoh

Was in Edinburgh a few years ago and around 2 in the morning I went down some side street and a couple of cop transit vans sitting there with cops waiting if something flared up. Any lads scrapping outside the clubs would get literally a minute before the cops arrived.

It'd be ground breaking over here!

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803880#Comment_117803880

There are plenty of videos of scraps going on from start to finish for minutes on end on O'Connell St, not a guard to be seen. That's the "main street" in a capital city. I can't think of a single other capital city in Europe where street fighting would last more than a minute on such a prominent place without police intervention.

I think the problem in Dublin is standards. This seems to be the acceptable standard. The gardaí are not fit for purpose in the city. It needs it's own specially resourced police force that caters to modern fast response city policing. And we need the justice system fixed.

Everything else proposed instead is just waffle.

enricoh

696 convictions - this has to be a record!! Well she's off the smack and crack apparently, so making progress! In her own words, it could be worse! I can see why cops don't bother their a#$e anymore.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/dublin-woman-with-record-of-696-convictions-tells-judge-it-could-be-worse-40788999.html

Kermit.de.frog

That's the corrupt revolving door justice system. The judges helping their mates from the Bar and the legal aid bandwagon.

The results are to be seen on the streets. If you are beaten within an inch of your life by someone with triple digit convictions walking the streets, that's why.

Those solicitors aren't walking those streets, they are well sheltered in Foxrock or D4 or wherever.

Strumms

1) enough Gardai, to respond swiftly and to deter by having a visible presence.

2) judges who hand down custodial sentences without exception for every physical attack / assault on a member of the public / Gardai...

the actual custodial element of the sentence should be equal to any suspended part of the sentence.

Kermit.de.frog

Apparently this is not unusual.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1482373/Teenagers-Pearse-House-Dublin-violence-hammers-knives-police

What really ticks me off also is, if a stand up person gave one of the scrots or serial offenders a whooping or casual beat down, the police would feel "obliged" to ensure they feel the full force of the law.

What I'm saying is, we have to be constantly on guard not to ever act out against this anti-social malice, regardless of provocation.

I'm beginning to think this Mannix dude was right, McEntee and her department of cronies are really sub par when it comes to actually getting anything meaningful done.

I skimmed through this paper:

Benefits of Bullying? A Test of the Evolutionary Hypothesis in Three Cohorts

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jora.12675

"Partial support for the evolutionary hypothesis was found as bullies had more children in NCDS and engaged in sexual intercourse earlier in TRAILS. In contrast, bullies reported worse health in NCDS and BCS70"

In this instance I'm comparing teh "bad boy" trash demographic to essentially a bullying element of regular society.

I think the comparison is aptly analogous as, it's that general demographic that have kids on an almost whimsical basis, with little to nothing available in preparation for their future.

Again alludes to the conventional "poverty trap" where children are born into a situation from which the possibility of rising beyond is made orders of magnitude more difficult by way of their parents outlook (or lack thereof).

That kind of "feral" demeanor, I truly believe there's a strong tendencies of association specifically attributable to at least one of the primary female drivers - safety and security.

Re the "bullying" analogy, if they associate with a bully, there'll be protected from predatory behavior, as they're associated with the primary predator?

Taking my favorite tram ride out to Tallaght and clocking the little chavies with their girlfriends.... it just feels that way.

Without question gals aren't hooking up with this mutants out of physical attraction.

But a "rough" element = potential predatory element, association with which there's a safety component to be had, and in a "free for all" environment like some overcrowded wanna-be ghetto dump, no doubt there's status in some capacity associated with liaison with the predator type.

Basically the last two walls of text convey that certain societal demographics feel there's sexual advantages to be had by being trashy.

Even though in relation to sound genetics (phenotyping, gene expression) the opposite is true.

.....

Question remains simply, how to address this?

I still say enforcement units to crush that behavior and thus mindset will be in the initial stages at least, an essential decision of the state.

jimmycrackcorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805608#Comment_117805608

The term corruption is thrown around like a loose cannonball. If you think the revolving door justice system is a result of corruption between judges and the legal profession, then do try to provide actual proof.

The revolving door justice system is actually rooted in our society's unwillingness to properly fund prison spaces or attempt any innovative ways of applying justice such as utilizing ankle bracelets for house confinement or penalizing social welfare payments for recurrent offenders.

How exactly would your enforcement unit work?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117829661#Comment_117829661

Via eradicating the streets of scrots and their trash hanger-on gal pals.

.....

In a perfect world.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830064#Comment_117830064

How?

is that not what the police do now. How would your unit be different?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830076#Comment_117830076

Degenerates operate via fear and intimidation.

This has been allowed to run rampant to the point it's become an urban culture.

So fight fire with fire.

Honestly the question is self explanatory.

....

What a wonderful thing it would be to see.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830110#Comment_117830110

So, you believe that the police should be allowed to dole out corporal punishment to whoever they see fit?

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830172#Comment_117830172

in my experience ive found that Irish people want ruthless and aggressive policing applied to everyone apart from themselves, those related to them and those they know socially

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830172#Comment_117830172

That's a grotesque twisting of words.

Continental enforcement units, whatever they do bro.

Irish enforcement should simply emulate whatever continental enforcement units do.

Their presence alone, reinforced transport units, body armor, the sight of crowd control equipment = fear and intimidation for those that have malfeasance in mind.

It also = reassurance and comfort in the minds of decent folk that the state is aware and competent enough to manage scumbag cultures.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830452#Comment_117830452

I have no idea what you're talking about.

continental enforcement units do what exactly?

we have public order units and armed support units in Dublin. What exactly are you looking for?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830523#Comment_117830523

Them to do their job, I guess?

I've never seen either of such entities that you mention, and if they do in fact exist, I've never see them bring order to the public, or support with any arms.

What am I looking for? Don't make it sound like a personal crusade, the city of Dublin itself is crying out for this, but its common knowledge policy makers like Ryan and McEntee have their heads lodged in their own lower intestines.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830556#Comment_117830556

They exist alright, just because you haven't seen them, hardly means they don't exist!

in fact, you probably have seen them. And you definitely have heard of them because they are in the news fairly regularly. And they do their job.

So, what else do you think should happen?

^^ Pfff, never seen them.

I see scumbags left and right though, I see intimidation, anti-social behavior, drunken disorderly and violence from the time I step off platform 4 all the way down talbot st, across O'Connell st, down to abbey st., on the Luas out as far as Tallaght.

I'm sure it goes farther, but that's as far as I go.

It's scum ridden.

It's beautiful in many ways, but scum contaminated, put it that way.

DCC continue to either play dumb or placate the entire fiasco cause maybe on some warped level they endorse it?

Who knows?

People are crazy.... loco..... and some idiots think that's glamorous.

I think it excites them actually to, in their minds, endorse the "criminal type".

Some men are like that.

Some women too.

.....

Anyways point being, if they were doing their job or their protocol was fit for purpose, I wouldn't see those things, and boards.ie would be full of threads underscoring exactly what I'm underscoring, and Pat Kenny and Claire Byrne wouldn't be raising the issue the ad nauseum, and Dublin City TD Josepha Madigan wouldn't have just penned an article expressing outrage that this matter continues to be neglected.

What else do I think should happen?

In all honesty I'd like you to take a walk up and down the bachelors walk boardwalk a few times next Fri/Sat night, then report back to us on Monday about these wonderful and pro-active police and enforcement units you speak of, doing such a fantastic job around Dublin city.

Oh wait, a dude tried that just a couple week ago.

It didn't go so well....

meathstevie

The law as it stands is quite alright, Gardai can use necessary, reasonable, proportionate and justifiable force, aka legitimate violence, in the execution of their duties.

There is no hard and fast definition of what exactly that means and there’s no cast in stone procedures for what such an application of force should look like.

Ultimately a judge and jury can be the arbiters of the legality of it all.

Unless it’s a planned operation it’s a pure judgement call for the Gardai involved in an incident.

The perfect scenario is the person/suspect they’re dealing with being compliant and somewhat cooperative.

The exact opposite is a suspect shooting at them, trying to run them over with a car, trying to stab them and so on.

How one deals with that can be practiced ad nausea in training scenarios but when it happens for real the reaction will be very personal and varying from Garda to Garda.

As long as the Gardai and innocent bystanders involved can go home unscathed and no clearly excessive violence was used all is ticketyboo.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117829374#Comment_117829374

".... engaged in sexual activity at an earlier age which is considered reproductively beneficial but developmentally a risk.

...indicative of a somatic versus reproductive trade off, whereby bullies follow a fast life strategy that implies investing in reproductive opportunities even if those come at health costs later on"

I mean does this not sum up the situation to perfection? Trash gals get knocked up early and often, with DISTINCT developmental compromise written into the future code of their offspring.

Cycle repeats itself.

It's a disaster, and at heart of Dublins primary issues currently, without a doubt.

.....

How to remedy it?

Well, it's all a mindset. Crap rolls downhill, and now the obligation IS ON THE STATE, to implement measures to ensure this mindset will be treated with the contempt it deserves, not endorsed and allowed to fester as has been the case under the incompetence of state administrators up to this point.

In perspective of the bullying analogy, it also makes little sense to me why Eamon Ryan would obstruct enforcement unit activity in the city center;

I mean you think this pretty face didn't catch a few lambastings from teh billy-bad-boys when he was a youth?

And now he wants to just allow them to do their thing with impunity?

It's like he must have a case of Stockholm syndrome or something and wants to assist his tormentors.

It appears that you believe anti social and illegal behaviour is committed by males, trying to impress females. And females encouraging such behaviour.

You believe we should have enforcement units, even though we have public order units and.armed.support units (although it appears, if you don't see them they don't exist! Did you ever see Everest?)

I think your ideas are just rubbish.

There is definitely a need for more gardai on the streets, despite having more members of AGS then ever before, there are less on the regular units. However, management 'managed' to do that.

Kermit.de.frog

The Garda don't even have body cameras yet despite being promised them two years a go.

Eamon Ryan is the type of ideologue that has brought these problems to the city. This idea that no one is bad, that society has inflicted something upon these gurriers and they are owed respect while the making the lives of others a living hell.

It's OK for Ryan and others to say that. They don't suffer it. It is not their communities that see the true cost of this behaviour.

They are hopelessly out of touch.

Kermit.de.frog

Well, it's the capital city and if it's not attractive to visitors, investors, people who might want to live here then that will effect the whole economy.

That Councillor Mannix Flynn seems to be the only one saying it as it is. Everyone else qualifying the situation.

Our mayor wants us to "understand the root causes of alcohol and drug abuse". That's what she had to say the other day as gurriers have the run of the streets and alarmed gardai are anonymously contacting the media about how they don't have the resources and they are intimidated by gangs of teenagers in the heart of the city.

Here he is talking about people being terrorised in the flat complexes in the inner city.

https://m.independent.ie/podcasts/in-focus-a-city-abandoned-street-crime-in-the-capital-40803118.html

Kermit.de.frog

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/deliveroo-carrying-out-urgent-review-of-appalling-incident-in-temple-bar-40901117.html

https://mobile.twitter.com/gerrynkennedy/status/1443110173464276992

Its the bingo card in this video.

^^ That is infuriating.

Those little bad-girl wanna-be's make me want to vomit.

I was passing Dr Quirky's earlier and there was a flock of them just hollering at the top of their voices.

God they make me sick.

And, listen I know it's not the popular opinion but I like cultural diversity.... when it's managed well (establishing supportive communities etc).

But WHAT is the deal with the gypsies from O'Connell St down to Amiens St?

Just literally gangs of gypsies sat on the street ("roma"?), I'm pretty sure I saw one women breast feeding a child, though I didn't want to be scarred for life so didn't try and catch a second glance.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960623#Comment_117960623

They're housed in private emergency accommodation in and around the Gardiner Street area.