Mica Redress

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957832#Comment_117957832

Has to be serious limits put on this 'redress'. €250K cap maximum would be more than generous contribution towards remediation for ordinary family sized houses.

seamus

@Sam Russell wrote:

There was a Revenue person on the radio saying values have increased by 75% since 2013 so it would appear a value of 350k would be current value.

That's true, I wasn't thinking of that. Market value and rebuild value are two different things as well though. You generally don't need to spend the market value of a property to build one.

I wonder is the right approach here not direct compensation, but a tender agreement with construction companies to pay a fixed cost (say €2k per sq.m.) to rebuild each of the houses to the exact same dimensions they had previously and a fixed spec. If someone had put in a €20k kitchen with granite worktops and a glass atrium, then they can hack out a deal with the builder themselves to top up the cost, but otherwise the house will be finished to a standard spec.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957528#Comment_117957528

It's not possible to get insurance that covers anything to do with mica but some insurance companies are now covering mica properties for loss or damage for issues unrelated to mica.

lenovo1

Shouldn't it be possible to save certain things from the finish e.g. kitchen and bathroom units.

What is proposed to happen with the banks? Right now they have an asset against a mortgage that is useless. Is that asset being reinstated for them? Surly the state should take a share.

I think there needs to be an understanding of what is to be achieved here. The goal shouldn't be to restore any loss. This isn't insurance.

The goal should be to provide homes that people can live in. That may be much smaller than previous and to a lower spec.

These people have been very unlucky but that's life. I don't see that the state should cover that. While numbers have become a bit meaningless due to Covid the costs involved are extreme. There will be very little benifit for the public or economy. For example Metrolink is about double but the benifits are huge to economy etc.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957821#Comment_117957821

Insurance covers your first few examples. Insurance companies have, in the small print, a get out for mica properties that states that they aren't liable for claims caused by the use of defective materials in the construction. The builders were unaware that the blocks were defective too. The suppliers should most certainly be on the hook but equally, the government, who have been aware of this for about 8 or 9 years continued to let the supplier(s) produce defective blocks and built numerous council houses in the intervening years.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957832#Comment_117957832

The average cost of a house may well be €169k. That's how much it would cost to buy a house. That doesn't include the cost of demolition, disposal, rebuild (at current/future material prices), testing, planning, etc., etc.

You've also made an incorrect presumption. The houses must be built to the original spec. Anything better must be paid for by the homeowner. That seems fair.

You are comparing people who have their lives destroyed, watching their family homes crumble like a slow motion earthquake to holding a 'winning lottery ticket'. Aye. *rolleyes*

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957983#Comment_117957983

Insurance companies don't cover properties built with defective materials. At the time people bought their homes, they were completely unaware that they were constructed with defective materials.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958170#Comment_117958170

Come off it. The current scheme has a cap of €275k. That's completely inadequate for all but about 10% of the affected homes. You obviously have no idea what the current costs for building a house are.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957915#Comment_117957915

You seem to think that everyone (eligible) is going to get 350K. What a load of nonsense.

Atlantic Dawn

If the €350k limit figure is rejected they will lose any support they had in the public. Such money would build a 4 or 5 bedroom palace when you already have the site, what more do they want? It's akin to a 100 cars being destroyed on a street and the insurance company won't cover any of the damage but the government offers them all a brand new Toyota Corolla and its thrown back in their face.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958260#Comment_117958260

Something along these lines is needed with an additional limit on properties larger than say 150m2.

Another idea would be to build new estates of standard houses and those affected could move to these and have their old houses demolished.

Something has to be done to limit & control costs.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958644#Comment_117958644

€350 wouldn't cover the testing, engineer's fees, architects, planning (yes, you have to reapply to build the same house), demolition, disposal and rebuild of a 4 or 5 bedroom 'palace' at current material/labour costs. It would, however, cover a modest home but that leaves 40% of affected homeowners in the red.

seamus

@Penfailed wrote:

The houses must be built to the original spec.

I'd be inclined to say standard spec. Not really any reason why there should be different treatment depending on how much the homeowner spent to begin with. Everyone gets the same build spec (incl kitchens or whatever), unless they want to pay a bit more.

Insurance companies don't cover properties built with defective materials. At the time people bought their homes, they were completely unaware that they were constructed with defective materials.

Point is that there are many insurance companies along the way who are conveniently going "No, see this clause here, not my problem". The screws can be turned on them to bring them back into the fold. They have a big pool of cash designed to cover exactly these kinds of extraordinary incidents.

Come off it. The current scheme has a cap of €275k. That's completely inadequate for all but about 10% of the affected homes. You obviously have no idea what the current costs for building a house are.

The SCSI Rebuild guide for this year puts the cost of rebuilding a house in the North West (including demolition) at around €1,500 per sq.m.

If we take 150 sq.m. as the typical size of a house in Donegal, then the average rebuild cost is €225k. Even if we assume they're more generous in Donegal and typically build houses of 200sq.m, that's still €300k, which means more than 90% of their rebuild costs are covered.

Seems pretty fair to me.

Pussyhands

There has to be some limit ffs to stop lads taking the piss.

It's Donegal, not Dublin City Centre. 350k will build a mansion in Donegal and at the end of it, you have a brand new house built with increased building regs etc. It's no longer a 15/20 year old house with **** insulation like the one they are paying the mortgage on, they're getting a brand new house.

If the house you're in now is worth 200k and it costs 300k to build, you're still paying the mortgage for a 200k house (if you haven't already paid it off) while owning a 300k house.

Mica lads are getting very very greedy. They want a limitless budget.

Atlantic Dawn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958694#Comment_117958694

The SCSI rebuild calculator is used for insurance purposes for rebuild costs, this would suggest €350k would rebuild a significant house bigger than I would say 90% of the houses in Dublin...

https://scsi.ie/consumer/build/house-rebuild-calculator

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958399#Comment_117958399

I was just curious, partly because of what went through over a relatively small claim and couldn't begin to imagine how those affected get insurance of any sort , never mind the cost

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958711#Comment_117958711

Here's the costings from the Defective Block Working Group -

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958720#Comment_117958720

This post clearly demonstrates the misunderstanding that the general public has with the current redress scheme. The house must be built to the original specification. Yeah, that **** insulation included. You are expected to remove and reuse all your fixtures and fittings. At the end of it, you will still own a €200k house even if it cost €300k to build due to the massive increase in the cost of materials and labour in the intervening years since it was originally built. The current scheme has a cap of €275k for demolish and rebuild. That includes the 10% that the homeowner has to foot plus the VAT. Demolition, rental costs, storage costs and all the rest aren't included. If you take the 10% contribution by the homeowner and the 23% VAT off the €275, it's more like €200k. You couldn't toss, rebuild, store belongings, rent (where...there's nowhere to rent) and all the rest for €200k. All whilst continuing to pay a mortgage.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958479#Comment_117958479

Are their lives any more destroyed than anyone else paying high rent. One argument I saw was "I'm paying thousands for my mortgage and I'll have nothing to show for it at the end" sounds very similar to hundreds of thousands of families in the Dublin area paying extortionate rent - yet they won't get 350k free.

And they say Dublin gets preferential treatment.

salonfire

No matter what scheme is in place, there'll probably be some cost on the homeowner, be it storage or cost of inconvenience or whatever.

Is there any loan or mortgage extension available to them?

20k added to a 20yr 200k mortgage wouldn't be the worst would it?

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958871#Comment_117958871

Dublin homeowners affected by Pyrite got 100% redress. Yeah. Preferential treatment.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958835#Comment_117958835

Sorry but even if the specs were the same, it would still be a newly built house which adds massive value.

In any case, what exactly is the problem with using materials that can be re-used? I saw one person whinging they were asked to re-use the same windows.

These people don't just want their current house to be solid, they want new everything! It's pure greed.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958890#Comment_117958890

That got €70k each on average. Maybe mica homeowners want the same?

In moral terms, there isn't much difference between looking for compensation for holding a worthless asset Vs looking for compensation for paying to live an asset that is also worthless to you. So yeah, €350k free for everyone.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958913#Comment_117958913

I would be quite happy to reuse my old windows.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958753#Comment_117958753

So 71% are over 186 sq.m.?

Sorry, but there has be a limit on this. Can't be throwing money at everyone to rebuild their McMansions. These lads need a dose of cop on.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958694#Comment_117958694

(Correction, planning act applies but current building regs do not)

The protesters have been spreading a load of misinformation (1% mica standard is another distortion) in order to make their plight appear worse, and no one is scrutinising them. I guess the media don't want to end up the bad guys either in this popularity contest.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959045#Comment_117959045

McMansions? Wise up. Modest bungalows for the most part.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959063#Comment_117959063

I have been informed by my engineer that I will have to apply for planning. I intend to rebuild like for like. Are you saying that a Chartered Engineer on the council select list of approved engineers is spreading misinformation?

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959063#Comment_117959063

Any links to backup your claim about planning exemption?

What do you mean about the 1% thing? That is included in some years old standard.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959095#Comment_117959095

The average size of a dwelling in Ireland is 160sqm. So yeah, these are big houses, some are very big.

And they're not all fully occupied either. There are empty nests among these too, where children have left to go live and work elsewhere.