Mica Redress

Sleepy · 20-08-2021 12:56pm

I'd have just assumed standard consumer law would be in effect here and that it would be the "retailer" of the defective goods (i.e. the builder selling a defective house or the wholesaler selling defective materials who the homeowners actions would have to be taken against while it would be on those companies to pursue the manufacturer (or whomever sold them the defective merchandise).

Either way, unless the sale of houses isn't covered by standard consumer protection legislation, I think the liability would be limited to the cost of the bricks themselves at the time of purchase rather than the cost of re-building an entire house made with those bricks...

Are there any government standards in place regarding the quality of building materials? If not, surely caveat emptor would apply and there'd be no legal basis for any redress claims? If so, the liability would obviously fall on whomever failed to meet and check that those standards were adhered to?

Penfailed · 20-08-2021 2:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780181#Comment_117780181

The government decreed that the block manufacturers could self-regulate.

There's a precident already set with the pyrite issue in Dublin were the owners got 100% redress from the government.

Sleepy · 20-08-2021 3:14pm

If there are no standards to be met, then it sounds like there's no legal basis for any redress from the government tbh.

Good luck with it and I'm sure the political precedent set by the pyrite issues will help but I'd be very hesitant to shell out for legal action were I in your shoes.

Penfailed · 20-08-2021 3:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117781156#Comment_117781156

The government let the manufacturers supply a defective product that was also used in council houses. There are standards to be met but the government weren't checking that the block manufacturers were meeting the standards. Legal action has been tried and it failed. The government are the last resort because that's all we have left.

muffler · 20-08-2021 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117781156#Comment_117781156

Of course there are standards and have been for a long time. They are called the Building Regulations made pursuant to the Building control Act 1990. In simple terms the regulations state that blocks, just like all building materials, must be fit for purpose. The BC Act 1990 also provides the power to the government (through building control officers) to inspect building materials together with methodology but sadly they failed in this regard. No such inspections of blocks were carried out.

MrMusician18 · 16-09-2021 10:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117781618#Comment_117781618

It's important to note that building control officers can conduct but are not required to conduct inspections

Penfailed · 17-09-2021 8:32am

The working group are making their submission to the government today. I wonder how long the process will drag on after that. If nothing is forthcoming in the short term, there's another protest planned for Dublin in early October.

blanch152 · 23-09-2021 12:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117543403#Comment_117543403

There's an idea. Cap the payment to affected householders based on the LPT valuation they provided to Revenue.

Penfailed · 23-09-2021 5:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927159#Comment_117927159

The houses are currently worthless so there's a flaw in your argument.

Sam Russell · 23-09-2021 11:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927329#Comment_117927329

That is not relevant to the suggestion.

If the LPT value is currently €250 k which is increased by the inflation of current property prices, then, say, restrict the redress amount to 50% more than the LPT declared value - so the house owner cannot claim more than €375 k.

Probably a bit harsh.

Another limit could be put on the size of the property where overly large McMansions are only covered for a cost of a smaller, more modest, house. So a 300 sq metre home is only covered for, say 150 sm, and then 50% after that. [300 sm is huge and even 150 sm is large].

Another possibility is to offer low interest loans to cover costs not covered by the redress scheme - for example holiday homes.

blanch152 · 23-09-2021 5:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928310#Comment_117928310

Now you are talking about ways in which the scheme can be made fair.

Why should holiday homes be covered at all? Some people invested in holiday homes for their pensions, others invested in Anglo Irish Bank shares. Why should one group be covered?

Sam Russell · 23-09-2021 7:50pm

I am not suggesting that holiday homes should be covered, but I think on balance actual (occupier owned) homes should be covered.

Houses not covered or partially covered could be given low cost loans, and, possibly, the banks holding the mortgage might have to contribute.

However, this is a highly political issue, made even more so as the opposition smell blood. Fairness and justice will go out the window. I just hope the Gov coffers do not end up paying 100% while those responsible get off scot free.

Penfailed · 24-09-2021 1:33am

I can't understand why everyone isn't behind the home owners in getting full redress on this thread. Try and put yourselves in the position of someone who has worked hard all their lives to provide a home for their family only for it start to crumble before their eyes. The heartache is unbearable. Your thoughts keep returning to, "How can I afford anything less than 100%?" Mortgaged to the hilt, bought at the height of the boom. Where is the extra money going to come from. Drinking coffee in the morning at the kitchen table and looking up at the cracks in the wall. Damp everywhere. Trying to find a mobile home cheap enough but big enough to fit your family for a year or more. Hearing your walls cracking at night. Pulling into the driveway every evening and seeing the mess that is your house, get worse as the days go by. Terrified of a bad winter when you think the gable wall won't withstand it. Telling your kids to stay away from that side of the house. It's fúcking shít. Then you come on here and read opinions from people who just don't seem to understand...

jimmycrackcorm · 24-09-2021 5:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931484#Comment_117931484

Because it isn't as simple a suggestion as you suggest. Your argument is no different from any other such as a family facing eviction because they can't afford to keep paying their mortgage.

Until walls actually fall down and kill someone then there won't be much noise because there are more people complaining about being actually homeless.

blanch152 · 24-09-2021 9:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931484#Comment_117931484

There are lots and lots of people who lose their homes through no fault of their own.

Sam Russell · 24-09-2021 11:05am

People can face huge disasters in their lives and most are not compensated by anyone. Some disasters are caused by a fault or action by another party, but some are just 'Acts of God'. Some people face huge battles through the courts to get just compensation and may or may not succeed. That's life.

The losers are those who purchased the houses, and those who are renting those houses. The current push is to compensate the former, but no mention of the latter.

The compensation should come from those who built the houses or supplied the defective blocks. However, it would be reasonable for the Gov to underwrite the cost of reparations, but should reserve some right to recoup the costs from some of those who are/were at fault. Perhaps the banks that provided the mortgages should be liable for some of the costs - after all, if the houses are of zero current value, then so to are the mortgages.

Penfailed · 24-09-2021 12:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932050#Comment_117932050

Gimme some comparable examples.

10000maniacs · 30-09-2021 7:24am

If people get swindled, its sad, unfortunate and all that, but the taxpayer shouldn't be the one stop shop for every swindle that happens in the country. I don't want my tax contributions to be used as a money pit for everything that goes wrong in the country.

I don't get the connection between mica and the taxpayer.

Also these polls are meaningless. Poll only the people who don't have a "mica" house. They are the blameless group in all this.

Dempo1 · 30-09-2021 7:29am

Morning Irelands (RTE'S flagship news programme) Lead story this morning 🙄

BRITNEY SPEARS 😳

They've now got around to this scandal, being discussed now. Clearly €350k being kite flown not acceptable.

touts · 30-09-2021 7:31am

A spokesman for one of the MICA lobby groups is on Morning Ireland rejecting out of hand the proposed offer of €350k to rebuild/repair the homes plus rent plus expenses plus medical costs.

Greedy fuckers should be told to piss off and sue the builders.

Dempo1 · 30-09-2021 7:39am

Can anyone directly affected by this appalling situation explain how or is it actually possible to get standard home insurance on these properties, which I believe is a requirement if property subject to a mortgage.

I got thinking about this earlier in the month, I had a storm damage claim start of 2020, claim settled, below 10k (First ever claim in 20 years of ownership) My insurance company trippled my premium quote recently, I started the search and came up against a brick wall (no pun intended) because of my relatively small and genuine claim, I eventually got a quote equal to my last year's quote.

If I faced such a challenge, how is it possible to actually get home insurance on Mica effected Home 🤔

Sam Russell · 30-09-2021 9:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932762#Comment_117932762

Is the state taxpayer liable to houses damaged or destroyed by flood? There have been many cases of this in the last decade - did the state pay out 100%?

Houses subject to subsidence, where huge cracks appear - who pays for the repair?

Should the mortgage company/bank who hold a lien on the home not be liable to pay a proportion of the now worthless house that will be restored to full value?

Should the various insurance companies that were paid premiums over the last 20 years carry some responsibility for the repairs? When the insurance company realised that the defect had occurred, and then refused cover not still have responsibility for the previous cover?

So these houses were built about 20 years or so ago so declared a value for LPT. Perhaps the LPT values declared should be a benchmark on the perceived value of the houses and the compensation be related to that value.

It appears to be another attempt to get the state to bail out those responsible - now I do not include the home-owners in that. It must be dreadful to be caught in this situation.

I think the state should not be caught bailing out builders, building material suppliers, mortgage companies, insurance companies, or others who were responsible for such a dreadful situation. The state should retain the right to pursue those companies for the costs.

gjim · 30-09-2021 9:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957518#Comment_117957518

It's bizarre - the average cost of house in Donegal is 169k - they are being offered 350k per house affected and are still not happy? The government could give each of them TWO average houses in Donegal and it would cost less.

And demanding money for expenses, hotels, counselling, rent, etc. while their houses are being rebuilt for them - presumably to a higher more modern spec?

I'm not against government supporting people who've suffered and support should be provided in this case, but I have a problem with people demanding that their misfortune (claimed as "victimhood") be treated as a winning lottery ticket. This is an extreme example of the mindset.

Also the implementation of this scheme will be almost impossible without graft going on at a huge scale.

muffler · 30-09-2021 9:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957832#Comment_117957832

I think you need to get your facts right.

Sam Russell · 30-09-2021 9:48am

Is there a way of finding out the valuation declared for LPT was for the houses affected?

muffler · 30-09-2021 9:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957885#Comment_117957885

I'd imagine that info wouldn't be available due to GDPR as it's contained in personal redress applications.

gjim · 30-09-2021 9:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957866#Comment_117957866

I'm happy to be corrected. Which facts?

seamus · 30-09-2021 10:12am

@Penfailed wrote:

I can't understand why everyone isn't behind the home owners in getting full redress on this thread.

They could probably start by not calling it "redress" when they're talking to the government. The state is not at fault here and does not owe these homeowners compensation for what has happened.

"Assistance" or "subvention" seem more appropriate. "Charity", perhaps, but that's a bit loaded.

Everyone has sympathy for the people caught up in this, but a sense of entitlement will cause that sympathy to evaporate very quickly. They're going to the state with a begging bowl, because they've been badly burned. But legally the problem is theirs, not the state's, and falls under the Sh1t Happens Act, 1861.

I have no issue in principle with the state providing assistance to people who need to rebuild a family home out of this. Humanitarianism aside, it's probably cheaper for the state in the long run to provide a one-off payment of €350k to build the house, than it would be to otherwise provide housing for these people.

But it's obviously more complicated than that. For some these are holiday homes, they can go whistle for it. Anyone with a mortgage must also have had home insurance on it. Which means the insurer should pay. If the bank didn't check or enforce the need for insurance, then the bank should pay.

If you didn't have a mortgage on it and you don't own any other property, then it seems fair that you should receive some assistance to get back on your feet.

Some of this might require Government pressure on banks and insurers rather than money. But from what I'm reading, the campaigners want to bypass all this and just get the State to cover everything.

seamus · 30-09-2021 10:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957885#Comment_117957885

No, but there's a summarised valuation guide provided by Revenue.

https://lpt.revenue.ie/lpt-web/valuation-guide/index.htm

Aside from a few small pockets, mostly around the towns, the average house in Donegal is valued under 200k.

Sam Russell · 30-09-2021 10:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958003#Comment_117958003

There was a Revenue person on the radio saying values have increased by 75% since 2013 so it would appear a value of 350k would be current value.

This scheme should only apply to principle private residences and not holiday homes, nor to landlords. If landlords need help, that should be offered on commercial terms as they rent out on commercial terms.

However, the state does not need to gift the money to the house owner - it could be provided by way of a low interest loan, a lien on the property to be repaid when it is sold, a levy on unaffected houses in Donegall, or in the rest of the country, or an elevated LPT charge, again either locally or nationally.

However, they should definitely look for the mortgagor and the insurance companies to cough up.

I think assistance needs to be provided, but not a 'free money' scheme. However, home owners affected need to have the stress of the situation taken from them.

Mica Redress

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