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Smart Tariff Unit Rates

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Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,355 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Irish Steve


    The only way to get the €750 back is to go with the retro fit plan, and in our case, that's going to be relatively low cost, in that our cavity walls are already pumped, the roof has been spray foamed, (the best job we've done in terms of heat saving), and we're due new windows and doors in the next few months, so the only "big ticket" items left are Solar and heat pump. If we do nothing, we're paid €750 for an in depth report of what could be done, but no, they don't give it back if there's nothing to do.

    As for the rest of it, and the feed in tariffs, there's so much dithering and lack of joined up thinking at Government level, it's sickening, and utterly frustrating, at a time when clear and postive leadership is needed, the silence from all the people that should be DOING things is only nauseating, but our options for getting rid of them are very limited, more's the pity.

    I really wish there was an option on voting papers at election time to select "none of the above", and if more than a pre defined % select that option, the election has to be re run, with the candidates that were rejected barred from standing the next time round. Won't ever happen unfortunately.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭ MAULBROOK


    When I got my setup in 2019 the grant was €3800. Now its €1400 less, the government does not give a toss.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭ BoxerX


    True, but back then I couldn't get the grant anyway as it was for houses built in (I think) 2011 and older (very short-sighted). At least I can actually take advantage of the grant now, and €2400 is better than zero which is what I've been able to get in the way of grants to date!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭ MAULBROOK




  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭ BoxerX


    As I thought. I think to get a Heat Pump, we have t pay €200 for an assessment, but we get that back on fitting, but I just can't get the answers I need without paying that €200, so I will get them fitted anyway, but not through the grant scheme.

    Is it not like the UK where you can 'spoil the ballot' and that gets counted? I know it makes no difference, but at least you get to vote for 'none of the above'.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,355 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Irish Steve


    It's possible to spoil the ballot here too, by writing somethin on it outside of the boxes, or signing it so that it can be identified, but I'd really like to see the option to be able to specifically express "a plague on all your houses", partly because Irish Politics is still mired in civil war families and divisions, hence the (effectively) two right wing parties, and a lot of the time, there's not a lot of difference in policies, it's down to pro or anti treaty, and the clear effect is "you must still vote for x", just because one of their relatives was involved in the events of over 100 years ago.

    It really is time to move on, there's frequent (valid) complaints here about the neaderthals of the Northern parties, but in some respects, there are similar issues here, just not quite so dramatically polarised. I digress, and this isn't really appropriate to the tariffs discussion.

    I'd really like to be in a position where I could do a lot of my own work, and as long as it meets relevant codes, get paid the grant for doing it, in that I know from the work I've been doing over many years that I'm likely to end up with a better end result than I will get from some of the people I've been talking to, the total absence of responses to a detailed request for quotes from some suppliers (even on the "approved" list) tells me that some suppliers are just not geared up to deal with installs that are outside of a very narrow set of parameters. At this stage, that's worrying, in that there have to be other people and companies out there that have done similar to what I want to, and the SEAI rules are not making things any easier.

    As for tariffs, the validity or otherwise of using battey storage to avoid peak grid draw has to be an area for a lot more investigation, from both a hardware and a software point of view, and using overnight off peak power to ensure the minimum "expensive" draw from the grid will for sure be a factor, and depending on what's connected, there are also some serious issues about inverter size to be explored, in that it's going to be important to ensure that if at all possible, the inverter has the capacity to run the heat pump without grid assistance, and that's going to mean looking very closely at 3 phase heat pumps, which fortunately, I can do, and also involve looking in a lot more depth at being able to parallel inverters to provide the appropriate extra power on one phase to be able to also power other items around the house as appropriate. There are inverters out there that can do this, but what's not clear at the moment is if they are approved for connection to the Irish Grid, which will of course be a major impediment to their use. I think Solis are about to launch a new inverter that has this capability, but there's very little real information about it online at the moment.

    We're completely at the mercy of what is eventually decided by the major suppliers, the regulator is useless and toothless, and expecting Ryan to understand this level of complexity is a joke, it's not going to happen any time soon, so I'm not expecting to see anything that will be of real advantage to anyone, even the crazy figures being bounced around about taxing feed in payments only serves to indicate just how out of touch with reality he really is, and how deluded he's become. The only thing that's for sure is that we're only likely to see energy prices going in one direction, the only unknown is how fast it happens.

    In one breath, they're talking about allowing a couple on pension to earn up to 14,000 a year from renting space in their home, then they talk about taxing anything over 200 that is being earnt from helping reduce green house gas issues, and then there's his delusion that multiple energy tariffs will help the most energy disadvantaged. There are times when I wonder if I should be trying what ever it is he's on, as his level of detachment from the real world that the rest of us have to live in is becoming really appealing.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,935 ✭✭✭ kuang1


    Posted this yesterday in the EV thread, but thought I'd drop it in here too in case it's of use to someone.


    I was due to have a d/n meter installed yesterday, having rang my supplier (bord gais) a couple of weeks ago to set up the appointment.

    As I had been frustrated in a previous attempt to get this done, I rang esb networks on Tuesday to confirm that the appointment had in fact been booked.

    It had not.

    Rang bord gais yet again then. A very helpful person was able to tell me that on both previous attempts to arrange this changeover, the request had been incorrectly inputted at bord gais' side, and as a result had been rejected by esb networks.


    So now it's due to happen next week.

    But here's the interesting thing: to change my meter from a 24 hour meter to a day/night meter doesn't involve a replacement of the meter itself. It's a simple reconfiguration done inside the unit that changes it to a d/n meter.

    I'm sure some on here were already aware of this, but it was news to me! (Lady I spoke to in esb networks educated me.)

    So if you have a 24 hour meter, you absolutely can change to a d/n meter. Apparently it's ridiculously easy and quick too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭ SD_DRACULA


    I was in the same boat, BG fudged the appointment the first time and the second time I checked with ESBN and the appointment was there.

    I went from smart to d/n so that is absolutely possible despite everyone in BG/ESBN knowing better than me and kept on telling me it is not possible.

    Keep fighting the good fight



  • Registered Users Posts: 286 ✭✭ idc


    Thats depends on if your meter is a modern one that operates both as 24 hour and day/night - thats simple as you have the meter already. But I expect most houses would still be on spinning disk type meters



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,935 ✭✭✭ kuang1


    Yeah it'd be interesting to learn what % of houses still have spinning disc meters. Comfortable majority anyway I imagine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭ OO7FITZY



    I am about to switch to energia as it is the best rate I can get for a smart plan and they have no info on feed in tariffs

    They cannot offer me a d/n plan (which is cheaper than a smart meter plan), which makes no sense and they blame ESB networks for this

    They say it will be late summer / early autumn before this is published and they are blaming Govt for the delay as legislation is not finalized

    Why is this so effing hard - this should have been in place a long time ago - should just be a plug 'n play for new micro gen customers



  • Registered Users Posts: 773 ✭✭✭ niallers1


    lots will have the spinning disk meter but very few will have the disc that spins round and round backwards. Most have a catch that prevents it spinning back more than half a turn back.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭ BoxerX


    Just saw your post, unless you have already, I suggest you search "One Big Switch", they have an Energia offer that might be better, worth a look before you sign up direct. 👍️



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,775 ✭✭✭ Effects


    I've a friend with a 20 year old spinning meter. It runs backwards now that he has PV installed.

    I've got the same meter in a house I own, so looking at possibly putting a PV setup there, after I test it of course. Better than adding a battery system where I live myself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭ bullit_dodger


    Check the meter face. Some of them look the same, but you'll have a little icon of a disc with a ratchet on it, meaning that it won't run backwards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,775 ✭✭✭ Effects




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,935 ✭✭✭ kuang1


    I presume it's only a matter of time before they'll cop on to these backwards spinning disc meters?

    Never gonna happen where any electric provider would allow an account to generate indefinite credit by a reduction in meter readings.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik


    I called electric Ireland asking them again why hasnt the meter been changed. Nobody is turning up.

    So they told me to ask esb networks and gave me their number.

    I called them and she said "it will be done when its done".

    I said 1 week, 2 weeks, another month?

    She said "Whenever it is done".

    What an ignorant shower



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,775 ✭✭✭ Effects


    My friend has a small enough system as he just didn't have enough space on his roof for more panels. So doubt it'll ever be overall negative in a day.

    I've been generating about 9 KWhr per day, the past few days, but a lot of that is just going back to the grid.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭ OO7FITZY


    these are the one big switch rates and are not for smart metered customers





  • Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭ bullit_dodger


    Yup that's the jobbie alright. I went looking for a image for you but was unable to find one on google, but you found it alright. It won't run backwards with that as there's a mechanism that only allows the meter to spin one way. Still better you know about it rather than think you were golden.

    As for @kuang1 comment about "it's only a matter of time before they cop on", nahh they know about this for years. It's only the super old meters that have that "feature". Also with the forced migration to smart meters (everyone will get one by 2024), it's only a matter of time before they'll all be replaced, so that door will close. Eventually. Enjoy net metering while you can.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,935 ✭✭✭ kuang1


    Well, you're aware that you can refuse the smart meter right? As I just did last week. You can call esb networks and ask for your name and address to be removed from their "to do" list.


    A day might come where they become mandatory, but that won't be by 2024.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,281 ✭✭✭ paulbok


    Do they actually give credit for negative readings?

    Mine is around 300 units below the last submitted reading.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jonathan


    By doing that you also lose your entitlement to deemed export CEG payments.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭ bullit_dodger


    A day might come where they become mandatory, but that won't be by 2024.

    hmmm, dunno what to tell you there. The end of 2024 is the plan of record to have everyone moved over to smart meters. You can read it yourself from their website.

    National Smart Metering Programme - Commission for Regulation of Utilities (cru.ie)

    They've been working on this from 2019 and have converted 800,000 homes already. So they would seem to be fairly on track for that to happen. Sure you can punt in the short term, but it's going to be coming to you irrespective of if you like it or not. One would hope that some competitive tariffs come on stream before we're all forced. I suspect that most people here will be the last group of die-hards hanging onto their D/N meters otherwise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18 stiophan


    I've just had my smart meter installed. Note they reset your reading to Zero on the time its installed. Makes looking back and power usage harder in future, so record your pre=tariff use in advance. Now as for tariffs. I have a few rants on the meters-

    1- Your normal daytime rate goes up (not alot but still) for no apparent reason. Its not to pay back the cost of the meter or so we are told.

    2 The range of tariffs is limited. I am with Electricity Ireland (dual fuel) and there is no green energy option which seems crazy. Are we to just presume night rate access or weekend access for smart meters is all being coincidentally by renewables. (this might be Electric Ireland only however). Where is the tariffs that notify you that using power NOW would save you (so you might remote into the smart plug at home and turn on the dishwasher-slow cooker-tumble dryer etc.

    3 I choose the "no option" option ie they will collect more info over time and when I have a better idea of usage, I can see what tariff is the best one to go for. I am told that the meters can detect power use on a device basis ie dishwasher etc. This is pretty useful to understanding your power use, as otherwise it would be device detectors on every device. So I can make a more informed decision whether night rate or weekend (one day) free power is the best choice and whats costing the most to run and when I could save at a lower tariff rate.

    If you don't change the plan to a smart meter only plan tariff you stay on the tariff you are already on till the end of the contract. This might be useful depending on how long the contract has to run out. Moving to a new smart meter only tariff does not result in you paying an early termination fee TO THE SAME UTILITY YOU ARE ON (for electricity) as you do at present. However as always perhaps only consider changing contract when you are reaching the current contract termination date so you can move to any utility like bonkers etc would work out.

    The range of tariffs is still very small. The smart meters allow night rate access for not extra cost to the utility as meter readings can be done EVERY 15mins remotely. I want to see more innovative tariffs. Tariffs that fall if there is lots of renewable power on the grid, tariffs that incentivise you to change your power use (yes there is one for peak time power demand in the early evening but its very limited). Tariffs that rise if lots of coal would otherwise be needed etc. Only 10% of meter users who get a new smart meter are changing their plan to take advantage of the new tariffs that are possible (some must have storage heating-heat pumps-electric water heating that would all benefit). Assuming they were not paying for the greedy levy for having a separate night meter.

    Running the old meters backwards to slow meter readings is not the answer to assisting our climate change. Yes power bills are going up but smart meters incentivise you to move your power use to other times of the day /overnight when demand is low (and so are power prices), when renewable generation is high and coal-gas power demand can then be cut. It will be a learning exercise for everyone but the incentive to run the dishwasher/high temperature washing machine wash and some other items (phone/laptop/tablet recharging) are possible without the previous cost of running an extra night rate meter. We can also consider running the immersion in morning night rate mode for morning hot water use vs turning on the gas boiler every morning so its not a cold shower. Naturally smart meters for heat pump use/EV charging is useful but few need the heating running overnight unless its a cold winter night. If you get solar+storage then you could recharge the battery overnight or at the lowest cost setting.

    In Australia and the US, there are options for smart meter users to sign up to "clubs" that operate as massive power demand levers. So that if a utility has to choose between using current high cost gas to meet demand or have the club cut power demand at a large scale, they will pay the club to cut demand and avoid some of the high fuel cost to generate power for the utility. Its not here in Ireland but a massive smart meter userbase allows that possibility. In Australia home solar power users can get paid to avoid the grid becoming unstable by charging their home battery or cutting power demand into the home altogether. We're not sunny Australia but that can be a reason at some stage for communities to install community solar or wind turbine and access the same benefits as the large current utilities have if they can move power demand.

    It also means there is a real value in buying white goods and smart plugs that can time when the device turns on. Up till now almost nobody without a night meter could take any financial benefit from it. I want to see the daytime tariff increase end, lots more tariffs (few will need to change every 15mins but...) and perhaps some savvy services that allow the residential user to look like a powerful lever on the grid as large energy users can already avail of due to their scale.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18 stiophan


    You must realise that the amount of free power being sent to the grid is MINISCULE. In fact solar generation is so low its calculated as near zero for margin of error by SEAI/CSO. In hawaii and other high solar places they had the issue where so many had solar and were positive power users ie exporting more than importing, that the utilities were paying out more than getting money in. So who pays for the grid when solar is not happening and the wind is quiet. Unless you can live in Norway with massive hydro as your "battery" then no current utility battery could meet anything more than a few hours of non-rural demand (and current utility batteries are NOT cheap). Look at what price bill limits did to competition in the UK. The first rise of spikes in fuel and they all went bust (or sold out ie the same). We're not hawaii but considering the cost of just the hardware for solar roof (panels/rood reinforcement/new boiler system/new heating upgrades/controls/some support costs if it needs post install fine tuning) and ignoring labour costs then this will require big grants and VERY cheap loans as few have the cash to wait for the ROI to pay it all back into a market where the vast number of Irish homes are poorly insulated (and assuming recent new homes are meeting A ratings..)

    Everything related to tariffs and FIT are constrained by the tiny number of SMart meters installed compared to the national base. FIT was supposed to arrive when the smart meters were almost all rolled out (or at least a vast no in the urban areas). Instead ESBN are claiming they will finish in 2024. Note as of Feb 2022, 348K meters were installed and there is 2.3M to fit by 2024 so to meet the "new" deadline (and pretending Covid/Inflation/skills shortages had no install rate impact), 59K PER MONTH will have to be installed. So just 16% have a smart meter installed....So you can see why the FIT plan was left in a shambles (and I think the FIT was a government objective to accelerate PV adoption in homes and industry). It not the lack of installers, its the lack of demand for retrofit PV. Its not the "newer" homes (2005 onwards) that need the retrofit for PV, its the VAST VAST number of older (BER rating DEFG/Exempt) homes that need this to move from oil (peat in the 21st century) , coal, old storage heating and old gas boilers plus off-pipeline gas. What was the governments option to allowing for FIT when there was no way of estimating export rates for PV. The option could have been insulate everywhere but sadly insulating 2M homes before 2025-30 is near impossible. The average cost for an existing home retrofit for insulation is €60K (pre-inflation rise). So 2m homes at say €50K per retrofit is €100BILLION which is just 30M short of the TOTAL Irish government budget or say €50B for half if you want everyone to (most likely) borrow 50% of the cost. SEAI already do post install assessments on grant aided Solar installs to insure the install was done correctly. Bad install feedback means they are removed from the SEAI approved installer list (certain sales death for what is a small installer market that relies on the grants to exist).



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,775 ✭✭✭ Effects


    What kind of smart plug is going to turn on your dishwasher or washing machine? Most of those have delay timers now anyway.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,707 ✭✭✭ irishchris


    Another one bites the dust with Iberdrola leaving now.

    Was tempted to move to pinergy on their ev plan and use solar for 9 months with my battery to minimise any daytime use with charging from grid on ev rate through winter whilst then availing of their 13.5c feed in tariff. My worry there is with the fact they don't pay out until January and whether they will still be here



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