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I'm bi and I dont support the LGBTQ movement because I dont like the Q word

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,719 ✭✭✭ Chinese whospers


    When the knuckle draggers were calling people queer as a pejorative I don't think they were being nuanced as to the exact meaning. So, don't let them continue to have a hold over you. Certainly not to the point of not supporting the community as a whole (per the OP).

    While some see LGBT as inclusive enough, others don't. Q doesn't describe you, but neither does the L.

    I'm straight (don't like CIS, would never call myself that), when I was growing up, possibly because I was baby faced and didn't dress like 'the hards' I was called gay and a F. I'll admit, this hurt me as a young teenager. But, I only think of those losers when I see posts like this. I'll never like the Neanderthals, but I don't have a negative Pavlovian response to the word gay.

    I’m in love with him and I feel fine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,887 ✭✭✭ joeguevara


    Does the Q generally refer to ‘questioning’ or the controversial descriptor that you refer to?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14 BigLoser


    Context is key. Nowadays most folk aren’t saying it to offend.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭ ...Ghost...


    VENEATS wrote: »
    From my own experience LGBT+ seems to be gone. It's usually either LGBTQ+ or LGBTI+.

    And I want to reiterate that I dont dislike the people who use the term to describe them. Be whoever you are... but dont call me it. I'm a bi man. When I'm with a woman I'm a bi man in a straight relationship. When I'm with a gay man, I'm in a gay relationship. You would think that would be simple to understand... apparently not. There is huge push to calling it Q relationships.

    Honestly, there are too many letters being added. LGBT+ was more than enough. By the time every sexual identity is covered, we will have covered the alphabet three times over as well as some of the Greek letters.

    I'm a straight male and I dislike the word Cis to describe my sexuality by the movement. No self-respecting straight person uses, or likes the term, but the movement seem to insist (disrespectfully) to use the term.

    I'm glad to see you're not drinking the kool aid have voiced your problem with what I personally saw as an offensive word to integrate into the alphabet soup. I don't know what the "I" stands for and won't bring myself to google it either. It's just gotten ridiculous at this stage.
    Annasopra wrote: »
    But the point is its not used in a disrespectful way. Thats not merely just my opinion.

    These days, the intent of a word/phrase doesn't matter. It's whether or not someone takes offense. The woke academy have been making strides to enshrining this into law.
    BigLoser wrote: »
    Context is key. Nowadays most folk aren’t saying it to offend.

    True. But some words carry a lot of weight for people and queer is full of potential harm. It's not like describing someone (jokingly) as a cúnt or a b0llix which can apply to everyone equally. Queer was and still is used as a slur to cause hurt and to isolate and target someone based solely on their sexuality or perceived sexuality.

    I recall many years ago, my brother was wearing white trousers in the 90s. Some dull sh1te called him a panzy as we walked by the bus stop. My brother asked the guy what he said and I remember clear as it was yesterday, he said "nice trousers; ye queer". He probably figured that being about a foot taller than my brother that he could get away with it. He didn't though. Queer and Panzy were used as sexual identity slurs to cause hurt and offense to straight and non-straight people. I haven't seen "P" used in the alphabet soup...is it a term covered by "+"?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,395 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    You identify as bi, and theres a B there. Others identify as queer and there's a Q there.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe



    I'm a straight male and I dislike the word Cis to describe my sexuality by the movement. No self-respecting straight person uses, or likes the term, but the movement seem to insist (disrespectfully) to use the term.


    True. But some words carry a lot of weight for people and queer is full of potential harm. It's not like describing someone (jokingly) as a cúnt or a b0llix which can apply to everyone equally. Queer was and still is used as a slur to cause hurt and to isolate and target someone based solely on their sexuality or perceived sexuality.

    'Cis' has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation.
    Zero.
    So no-one is using it to describe your sexuality.
    It means your gender identity aligns with your biological.

    I am cis - I am also Queer.

    A word I have used to describe my sexual orientation since the early 1980s and will continue to use. I will also use dyke.
    I use these terms because back in the day 'lesbian' was often connected to 'feminist' and/or 'separatist' - and while I may align with the former on many things (not all) I never will be a separatist.

    I still call myself Queer as that is what I am. A good old fashioned queer dyke who could never in a million years be mistaken for straight.

    And to be absolutely frank about it I don't care what a straight man thinks. I will define myself how I want - and extend the same curtesy to you, even when you appear confused about what words mean.


  • Registered Users Posts: 848 ✭✭✭ SourSessions


    I don't think the word queer itself is the problem, it's using it as a catch-all phrase when some people really don't like it or want it used it relation to themselves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭ ...Ghost...


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    'Cis' has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation.
    Zero.
    So no-one is using it to describe your sexuality.
    It means your gender identity aligns with your biological.

    I am cis - I am also Queer.

    A word I have used to describe my sexual orientation since the early 1980s and will continue to use. I will also use dyke.
    I use these terms because back in the day 'lesbian' was often connected to 'feminist' and/or 'separatist' - and while I may align with the former on many things (not all) I never will be a separatist.

    I still call myself Queer as that is what I am. A good old fashioned queer dyke who could never in a million years be mistaken for straight.

    And to be absolutely frank about it I don't care what a straight man thinks. I will define myself how I want - and extend the same curtesy to you, even when you appear confused about what words mean.

    Seeing the phrase "Cis white male" had me believe (wrongly) that it was connected to sexual orientation. To be frank, there are so many terms flying around, one can be excused for not having them all memorised.

    I don't care what you call yourself, be it dyke, queer or whatever else you deem to be preferable to you. Just don't expect everyone to see those terms in the same light as you, as can be seen in the OP.

    If you don't care what a "straight man thinks", then I don't know why you bothered quoting me and going off on a rant. The first line was enough. The last paragraph said more. I personally wouldn't be judging a person based on their sex and sexual orientation, but rather on their speech and actions. Crazy idea, I know.:rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe


    Seeing the phrase "Cis white male" had me believe (wrongly) that it was connected to sexual orientation. To be frank, there are so many terms flying around, one can be excused for not having them all memorised.

    I don't care what you call yourself, be it dyke, queer or whatever else you deem to be preferable to you. Just don't expect everyone to see those terms in the same light as you, as can be seen in the OP.

    If you don't care what a "straight man thinks", then I don't know why you bothered quoting me and going off on a rant. The first line was enough. The last paragraph said more. I personally wouldn't be judging a person based on their sex and sexual orientation, but rather on their speech and actions. Crazy idea, I know.:rolleyes:

    Ok - so in the forum dedicated to LGBT when someone who identifies a Queer takes the time to explain the reasons why, and is honest in saying the opinion of a straight man who doesn't know his cis from his gay is utterly not relevant to me I'm 'going off on a rant'.

    Well pardon me for never caring what straight people think about how I identify for the last 40 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭ ...Ghost...


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Ok - so in the forum dedicated to LGBT when someone who identifies a Queer takes the time to explain the reasons why, and is honest in saying the opinion of a straight man who doesn't know his cis from his gay is utterly not relevant to me I'm 'going off on a rant'.

    Well pardon me for never caring what straight people think about how I identify for the last 40 years.

    It was done with such finesse. Bravo to you. What a warm, welcoming individual you have been to so kindly correct a simple misunderstanding of a word heard by a straight male in recent times who didn't gender/gay/pride check it thoroughly before using it. I had incorrectly believed there was a sexuality element attached to the word due to a personal observation seeing the word being used in public.

    As I said already, the first line of your response was plenty, but you went on a bit of a flexathon and then declared that you didn't care what a "straight man thinks". You seem to have expanded on that to declare you don't care what straight people think. So, is it just straight peoples thoughts you take issue with, or does it extend to people of faith, or who lean right in politics? Do you regularly dismiss people because of their sexual orientation, or is it just in this thread?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭ VENEATS


    KKV wrote: »
    I'm a fairly straight male myself, so don't dabble much in the world of gay/pride/lgbt/etc. but do some people not use Q as "questioned" or "questioning" or something like that? (as in someone unsure about what they're into?)

    Maybe I'm making that up, and it's all in my imagination, but i definitely feel like i've heard it somewhere before.

    Technically it can be. It definitely used to be. But questioning is becoming obsolete.


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭ VENEATS


    Annasopra wrote: »
    But the point is its not used in a disrespectful way. Thats not merely just my opinion.

    When people dont like the use of the word, for the slur it is, still, to some and it still is used that is disrespect. And that's not opinion.

    When people do something knowing it causes hurt to others, that is disrespect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭ VENEATS


    When the knuckle draggers were calling people queer as a pejorative I don't think they were being nuanced as to the exact meaning. So, don't let them continue to have a hold over you. Certainly not to the point of not supporting the community as a whole (per the OP).

    While some see LGBT as inclusive enough, others don't. Q doesn't describe you, but neither does the L.

    I'm straight (don't like CIS, would never call myself that), when I was growing up, possibly because I was baby faced and didn't dress like 'the hards' I was called gay and a F. I'll admit, this hurt me as a young teenager. But, I only think of those losers when I see posts like this. I'll never like the Neanderthals, but I don't have a negative Pavlovian response to the word gay.

    That's fair. So you support the use of the f word? And the problem is unlike L, movements call my relationship (a bi man with a straight woman) Q----. That's the difference, imo.

    Q has also become the catch all phrase for the entire community. Rte had a show called Q--- stories. That show wasnt about those who dont fit LGBT. It was about LGBT and Q people.

    So would you support those people that called you gay and the f-word now? Today?


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭ VENEATS


    joeguevara wrote: »
    Does the Q generally refer to ‘questioning’ or the controversial descriptor that you refer to?

    Generally it's the "reclaimed slur" now opposed to questioning. And whilst I dont particularly like the slur, i especially dont like it when people describe my relationship as such.


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭ VENEATS


    ELM327 wrote: »
    You identify as bi, and theres a B there. Others identify as queer and there's a Q there.

    First off the Q can and is being used, by some, as an umbrella term, for all LGBT people. Q... Stories can mean, as per RTE, a story about any member of the LGBT

    Secondly Q is used to describe a relationship between a bi man with a straight woman or gay man, or a bi woman with a straight man or lesbian woman.


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭ VENEATS


    I don't think the word queer itself is the problem, it's using it as a catch-all phrase when some people really don't like it or want it used it relation to themselves.

    I think that probably sums it up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ ztoical


    eviltwin wrote: »
    A lot of younger people haven’t got the context of it being a slur because they haven’t grown up with it being used that way. And if they feel it represents them so be it. LGBT is very narrow, it doesn’t describe me so I use Q if I ever feel the need to. I’m old enough to remember being called that word as a slur but it’s lost it’s power to hurt now it’s been reclaimed but that’s just me. I can understand why some people don’t like it.

    +1 I def found its a much younger generation who feel comfortable using queer to describe themselves. I find its particularly among groups of young people where there is a mix of different orientations and people like to use it as an umbrella group label. I also think many young people are still exploring and aren't as quick to use straight or gay.

    I use to use bisexual to describe myself up until a few years ago when I started using queer as I just felt more comfortable with it. It was after reading a comic by queer artist Erika Moen who identified as a Lesbian but then she feel in love and married a man and found herself so conflicted. She didn't like using bisexual, it didn't feel right to her but she clearly couldn't say she was a lesbian nor did she feel straight so she started using queer and I related to her reasoning. To me its a personal thing, I understand the OP has issues with the word but I don't have those same associations and I feel more comfortable with using queer more than bisexual.


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭ VENEATS


    ztoical wrote: »
    +1 I def found its a much younger generation who feel comfortable using queer to describe themselves. I find its particularly among groups of young people where there is a mix of different orientations and people like to use it as an umbrella group label. I also think many young people are still exploring and aren't as quick to use straight or gay.

    I use to use bisexual to describe myself up until a few years ago when I started using queer as I just felt more comfortable with it. It was after reading a comic by queer artist Erika Moen who identified as a Lesbian but then she feel in love and married a man and found herself so conflicted. She didn't like using bisexual, it didn't feel right to her but she clearly couldn't say she was a lesbian nor did she feel straight so she started using queer and I related to her reasoning. To me its a personal thing, I understand the OP has issues with the word but I don't have those same associations and I feel more comfortable with using queer more than bisexual.

    And if that fits you, fair enough. It doesnt fit me, so why are we using it as both an umbrella term and a term to describe my relationship (bi man with a straight woman).


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,508 ✭✭✭✭ eviltwin


    VENEATS wrote: »
    And if that fits you, fair enough. It doesnt fit me, so why are we using it as both an umbrella term and a term to describe my relationship (bi man with a straight woman).

    Why don’t you describe yourself as Bi then using the B ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭ Swindled


    Wasn't the word Queer reclaimed, like the word Gay, and Nigg3r being reclaimed by African Americans, and the Paddy slur being reclaimed by the Irish


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  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭ VENEATS


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Why don’t you describe yourself as Bi then using the B ?

    I dont. Stonewall and LGBT UK both do? That's my point???


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,773 ✭✭✭✭ Annasopra


    VENEATS wrote: »
    I dont. Stonewall and LGBT UK both do? That's my point???

    I dont even know what "LGBT UK" is :confused:

    Apparently a "normal" woman is a busty blonde sexy page 3 model who wears make-up, short skirts and red lipsticks and has pouty lips.  Who knew. 👀😏

    ******

    "Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common"



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ ztoical


    Look OP labels can be difficult for lots of people. I know plenty of lesbians who hate the word dyke and others who only use dyke and hate lesbian. I know lesbians who are happy to be called gay and others who think that word should only be used for men. They prefer queer as they feel it lacks gender and is therefore more inclusive. There is literally no word we could use that everyone will be happy with.


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭ VENEATS


    ztoical wrote: »
    Look OP labels can be difficult for lots of people. I know plenty of lesbians who hate the word dyke and others who only use dyke and hate lesbian. I know lesbians who are happy to be called gay and others who think that word should only be used for men. They prefer queer as they feel it lacks gender and is therefore more inclusive. There is literally no word we could use that everyone will be happy with.

    That's fair enough but when organisations use a word to describe me, that I deem a slur, how would I support them, when they dont me.

    And theres a huge difference between lesbian and Q.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ ztoical


    VENEATS wrote: »
    That's fair enough but when organisations use a word to describe me, that I deem a slur, how would I support them, when they dont me.

    And theres a huge difference between lesbian and Q.

    In your opinion. Its not viewed as a slur by others. If you want to not support organisations for using a word that is your choice. Language around LGBTQ+ can be minefield and no one will get it right, someone will always feel left out, discriminated or insulted by word choices but I'm not sure what out come you want from this OP. As several people have stated they are ok with using queer, myself included. I don't like bisexual and don't want that word used to describe me but I'm not going to take offensive if others like yourself do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭ VENEATS


    ztoical wrote: »
    In your opinion. Its not viewed as a slur by others. If you want to not support organisations for using a word that is your choice. Language around LGBTQ+ can be minefield and no one will get it right, someone will always feel left out, discriminated or insulted by word choices but I'm not sure what out come you want from this OP. As several people have stated they are ok with using queer, myself included. I don't like bisexual and don't want that word used to describe me but I'm not going to take offensive if others like yourself do.

    So do you mind if I call you bisexual even though you dont like being called it?

    People call my relationship the Q word even though I dont like it.

    The thing is I wouldnt disrespect who you say you are and call you bi if that's not what you want to be called. In the same way I dont think bi people should be called the q word. Bi people should be called bi. We have bi relationships not queer ones. We have bi stories not queer ones.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ ztoical


    VENEATS wrote: »
    The thing is I wouldnt disrespect who you say you are and call you bi if that's not what you want to be called. In the same way I dont think bi people should be called the q word. Bi people should be called bi. We have bi relationships not queer ones. We have bi stories not queer ones.

    If you specifically were the topic of a conversation and you'd asked people not to use certain words or pronouns etc and people still did I could understand the personal affront but as mentioned several times in this thread it is a word that doesn't hold the same insult for others as it does for you specifically.

    If you want to have a bigger discussion about Bi erasure and that you felt using words other then Bi was adding to that I could understand but I don't see the word as a slur and quite a few others don't either hence why its being used a lot more particularly with younger people. I've worked with youth groups and listened to so many young folk who have come out and prefer we used queer youth to gay youth as they felt it was more inclusive for them and allowed them more room to explore and find out where they fit rather then having to put more specific labels on themselves too early. A good friend of mine who now uses non-binary struggled for a long time trying to figure out where they fit in and has said several times that using the word queer helped them so much in being able to be in the community and accepted as part of it without having to attach more specific labels. A word you see as a slur others have seen as a lifeline.


  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭ VENEATS


    ztoical wrote: »
    If you specifically were the topic of a conversation and you'd asked people not to use certain words or pronouns etc and people still did I could understand the personal affront but as mentioned several times in this thread it is a word that doesn't hold the same insult for others as it does for you specifically.

    If you want to have a bigger discussion about Bi erasure and that you felt using words other then Bi was adding to that I could understand but I don't see the word as a slur and quite a few others don't either hence why its being used a lot more particularly with younger people. I've worked with youth groups and listened to so many young folk who have come out and prefer we used queer youth to gay youth as they felt it was more inclusive for them and allowed them more room to explore and find out where they fit rather then having to put more specific labels on themselves too early. A good friend of mine who now uses non-binary struggled for a long time trying to figure out where they fit in and has said several times that using the word queer helped them so much in being able to be in the community and accepted as part of it without having to attach more specific labels. A word you see as a slur others have seen as a lifeline.

    Fair enough. But again others seeing it as a lifeline, let them use it to describe THEM. If they struggle to know what they are, then I've no issue with THEM using the word for THEM.

    I'm not the only one that doesnt like it. It's just a little bit of respect. And it's nothing to do with bi erasure.

    If I believe the most inclusive umbrella term is bisexual f***ots, you ok with that? Are you ok with being called that in the future? I certainly wouldnt?

    At the end of the day, the word shares a lot of meaning, still to many, it's just about respect. And people/orgs dont have that respect, then how do they expect that respect that.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    VENEATS wrote: »
    So do you mind if I call you bisexual even though you dont like being called it?

    People call my relationship the Q word even though I dont like it.

    The thing is I wouldnt disrespect who you say you are and call you bi if that's not what you want to be called. In the same way I dont think bi people should be called the q word. Bi people should be called bi. We have bi relationships not queer ones. We have bi stories not queer ones.

    How does this relate to objecting to your initial issue with the Q being in the initialism though? The L, G and T don't apply to you either.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭ VENEATS


    L1011 wrote: »
    How does this relate to objecting to your initial issue with the Q being in the initialism though? The L, G and T don't apply to you either.

    So I dont like the Q word. It is not something that I'm never going to use. To me it will, always, be a slur. If people want to define themselves as that, fair enough, I cant change that. And whilst I dont like it i wouldnt lose support for Stonewall etc....

    If I wrote it misleading, I apologise.

    My issue (with regards to support) is not so much the Q being in the acronym. If I was using the acronym they would be part of the plus (probably LGBTI+). Why I cant support the movements and pride etc is because of the way the Q is being used in the acronym.

    For me, I see very little difference between my dad using it at me when I didnt want it used to now when these LGBT movements are using to me when I dont want it used to describe ME. I'm a bi man. I'm not part of the q word group. I'm not in a q relationship. I'm just not.


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