Kilkenny GAA Thread

tibruit

We are the victims of our own success in Leinster because we then find ourselves advancing straight into a semi final, where we have to overcome the bias of the lopsided structure of the championship. Cork had two knock-out games played at championship intensity while we were twiddling our thumbs for three weeks in Nowlan Park after a Leinster final that was played at practice match pace. The idea that they were going to be tired was just plain wrong. We were able to overcome this bias consistently 10-15 years ago because we were ahead of the pack. We are not anymore, but Limerick are.

This is the second year in row where we have gone out and done enough to lead at the break. Then 10-15 minutes into the second half we hit a wall. There is nothing wrong with our strength and conditioning. We are lacking competitive match fitness. It is also easy to blame the management for sideline decisions, but that`s just hindsight. I think Richie Hogan is a creative genius and personally I would have him on early in the second half, but there was no reason to think that the forward subs used couldn`t also have done a job for us based on the evidence of the Leinster championship.

If Cody decides to stay on, good luck to him. Fine by me. He is single minded, stubborn and makes mistakes, but he is the greatest man manager I`ve ever seen and he understands the need for renewal. Liam Sheedy could take a leaf out of his book. The reason we have slipped a bit, (and I don`t think it is as far as some here maintain) is due to level of talent coming through.

Village87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742599#Comment_117742599

There is a number of reasons success has dried up.

1. Competition has improved dramatically. 20 years ago it was Cork, 10 years ago Tipp, every other team was way off. Today there are 5/6 contenders
2. Underage success and underage superstars have dried up. No u21 since 2008, only an handful of Leinster in that time. Apart from Shamrocks very poor return from underage Kilkenny teams the last 10 years.
3. The structure of championship has changed and leading to less success. Galway introduction to Leinster etc. 10/15 Years ago Kilkenny could afford to hit the league with everything and then prepare for All Ireland Semi Final as Leinster was a given. Kilkenny always peaked for Mid August.
4. Standard of coaching, development has improved in other counties while Kilkenny county board still think they are the benchmark.
5. Development squads are a myth. Kilkenny were the greatest team of all time from 2005 to 2011. All these players were a creation of clubs and family's hard work and just a freak generation. Development squads only really developed after these players but yet development squads get the credit.
6. Management and back room team needs a complete overhaul. Brian Cody is trying to have his hands in all things Kilkenny. What does James Mcgarry bring to the table other than to agree with Cody
7. Above post describes Brian Cody as the best man manager of all time. One thing that Brian is not is a man manger. BC does very little if any one to one. Intimidation, competition, punishing, ignoring, these are the man management skills that BC brings to the table. Yes it works for a lot of players especially in the past, but the new generation of kids are different and this style is dying.

usualstripes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742599#Comment_117742599

Of course he is the greatest manager weve all seen and i take your point re intensity in matches but we weren't twiddling our thumbs in Nowlan park for 3 weeks. I have to argue with a couple of points. Firstly re Cody understanding the need for renewal, what does this mean? Does it mean he understands the need to change the way we play to cope with the modern running game? If that's the case then why did we revert to type in the 2nd half against cork? Its not because we lacked match fitness as the stats will show once we played out wide to our forwards we achieved success on the score board. Match fitness wasn't an issue as we weren't feeding this ball after 5 minutes into the 2nd half. Also if you are correct when you say Cody understands the need for renewal why did we puck out 13 times in a row into our half/full forward line with the same net effect and not think to vary our strategy once we see its wasn't working. It actually had the opposite effect of lifting Cork each and every time and if you take it that we were outnumbered in the stands by about 4 or 5 to 1 the you see how it was probably lifting them more and more each time when they were claiming balm after ball out of the sky. The cork crowd quite rightly lifted them and that's where their 2nd and 3rd wind came from. It deflated us a good bit.

I've already mentioned in a previous post that we don't have the same talent coming through and i suppose more of an emphasis now is being put on bigger numbers in development squads as is evident by the sheer numbers going to these sessions but i will say we are still good enough to beat any team in the country on our day once we play to our strengths and not our opponents strengths. Im sure if you were to ask the likes of Eoin Cody, Billy Ryan etc they would have preferred the wide ball in the 2nd half far more than the long delivery that they have to fight aerially for against the impetus of the oncoming full back line who love to see this happening.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743255#Comment_117743255

"Twiddling thumbs" is a figure of speech. No amount of training games, drills etc is going to match the preparation that Cork had. The renewal I`m talking about is the renewal of players. We completely restructured our defense after the `19 final, yet this was the same set of backs that kept Limerick at bay a few weeks previously. The sending off changed the entire complexion of that final and some of our backs paid a heavy price. Joey Holden was particularly unfortunate I think.

I can suggest why we went continually long in the second half. Eoin Murphy is one of the best at what he does. If he is presented with options, he will take them. The lads outfield were not showing for the ball like they had been in the first half. So the real question is why not? This gets back to match fitness. We hit the wall first. But the Cork were legless in the final minutes and allowed us back into the game. This also happened to a lesser extent last year against Waterford. Contrary to what you seem to think, in normal time at least, most of our long puck outs went to ground in the second half. We were failing to pick up our fair share of the breaks. Another sign of tiredness.

As poor as our returns from going long might seem, (we had about a 33% success), when compared to Corks short strategy we actually fared well. In normal time Cork were successful at working the ball through the lines beyond our 45 less than 33% of the time. We turned over everything else except for conceding two frees. In reality then, when we lost possession going long, it was primarily between the Cork half back and full back lines. But Cork conceded to us primarily between midfield and their own half back line.

Charlie69

We constantly hear how Kilkenny don't have the same talent coming through as we've had in the past, but what does that mean? If we are talking about the players that won eight all Ireland's in ten years, some of which will be in the conversation when discussing the greatest hurlers of all time from any era... if that's who we're measuring the current crop against then that's grossly unfair for a start and I'd argue that no other county in the country are producing players of that quality or anywhere near it. The point is you don't have to have a team of all time greats to win an all Ireland but you do need those players to be well coached and playing to a game plan . I'm also repeating myself now but I have absolutely no doubt that we have the players well capable of achieving big things or at least I definitely believe that the current management are not allowing them to achieve their full potential.

usualstripes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743945#Comment_117743945

Ok. I take your point on renewal of players and re Joey Holden. Even this year Joey was very unfortunate if that's the word not to be selected in some games albeit i think our full back line have done well in the last few games.

Just on the long puck outs maybe there is a case for lads not showing for the ball all the time but Im sure if you look back on the match you will see, as i was behind Murphy in the 2nd half, him disregarding our corner backs on a number of occasions to let them know he was going long.

Im not blaming Murphy at all but he is experienced enough to see what wasn't working but continued in that vain so there must have been an instruction to go long for so many puckouts in a row.

I cant accept that our lads wouldn't show because of a lack of fitness or we really are in trouble.

Certainly when we are being pulled all over the place in our full back line you have to look at the root causes as to why this is happening and one of the main root causes of this was the rapid turnover between our half forward and full forward lines and in my opinion we should have varied this as much as possible.

Charlie69

Deleted post

kilkennyboy

Got talking to one of the lads today and asked some of the questions we see on this discussion.

Puckouts and going short.he said they done so much of it was a big part of every session.

It nearly took up whole of training resett and go again. But plan includes a outball to half forwards who have to make themselves available. For some reason they didn't perform.

Kilkenny like to play on our terms .we put pressure on opposition backs force turnovers or poor delivery. Normally have a deep sitting centre back who cuts out diagonal ball to forwards. Our current centre back wants to get up the field and play.

So if our half forwards are not dominant and centre back is missing its a field day for opposition corner forwards with the quality of ball coming in.

Tj ,cody,Wally? are aerial ball winners so that is a option for Kilkenny but it seems Murphy

Goes to that alot when nothing else is on.

Cody can be blamed for somethings but if you work on things in training come up with plans and players do the opposite when pressure comes on.it can be very frustrating

tbiggertycome

KK v GAL Minor

A Dunphy

E Rudkins B Hughes S Moore

J Fitzpatrick G Dunne E Lyng

A Ireland Wall K Doyle

J Walsh T Dunne H Shine

D Glennon K Carey B Whitty

Subs

B Garrett

K Corcoran

J Neary

D Queally

D Sherman

C Hackett

P Naddy

M Brennan

L Murphy

Realt Dearg Sec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117744332#Comment_117744332

if that's what's happening it's a damning indictment of management. If the players don't do what they're trained to do then training is failing and communication is failing. If your whole defensive strategy depends on having a CB who sits deep and you play Padraig Walsh in that position, then I have serious questions about your reading of the player. No shortage of other lads who could do that job, but it's just not his game, and he should be moved elsewhere if he's not suited to the role (and he is definitely not suited to that role).

There's no getting away from it for me, management shoulders a lot of blame here. We have had the conversation for several years now where we defend Cody on the lines that he is still a great motivator, but he maybe needs fresh voices in as selectors. Repeatedly the selectors have not been listened to, or have been total yes-men (there is no other option because if there was we wouldn't be playing TJ in the role of ball-watcher). Subbing on Mossy twice on Sunday bate all and sums up the stubborness of the current set up.

We have been told about how ruthless the set up is, how there's no place for sentiment and nobody is bigger than the team. If Cody can't be moved on now, then we know that the ruthlessness just doesn't apply to himself. I don't think we would have beaten Limerick, but we definitely had the batin of Cork.

I also don't buy the idea that we just don't have the players. The country was going crazy for Downey's performance, even though Billy Ryan roasted him for 5 points. In the fifth minute Adrian Mullen pinged a perfect ball into Eoin Cody for a lovely point. We have fantastic young forwards there, we have the makings of a good set up at underage for the future (it seems to be in the right hands anyway from what I've heard), we need serious work at fixing the issues at u20, but Cody's time is up, hard as it is to say. It's been up for a couple of years now. The greatest manager of all time, but we've seen plenty of greats have to move on when they couldn't do it anymore. That's true for everyone.

Fred Daly

The best of luck to the kilkenny minor team Friday night in Thurles.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743962#Comment_117743962

The greatest players of all time as a homogeneous group is a myth too. The starting teams in the 2006 and 2015 finals (wins 1 and 8) have precisely zero overlap. There was more flux in those groups than people think. Those teams won a few All Irelands without being amazing and miles ahead of all opposition. Played Galway three times in 2012 and won once.

The idea that they can be used as a reference point is not so crazy in the context of current players' standard, nor should it be denied that all those teams were based on a period of considerable underage success (Minor 2002/2003/2008/2010 - admittedly the last one is a stretch & under 21 1999, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2008). That should temper expectations now taking into account the shortage of underage achievement if we assume the link between the two not to be just coincidental.

Your point about not needing a team of all time greats but instead a well coached and organised team is not negated by this of course. But the point is that the really successful teams were not so much an act of God as maybe just the best case scenario outcome of what was a very promising environment of underage success especially on top of the successful senior years of 2000/02/03. A very fertile environment all told.

The bad news is that it would not be irrational to expect that the reverse probably also applies and that any management team (be it Cody led or not) will, to put it benignly, have to operate with much more limited resources and that success measured in All Irelands will be a huge challenge.

And while I'm at it I think some people are putting too much emphasis on supposed unfair treatment of Joey Holden and Richie Hogan. RH for his undoubted gifts is no longer significant at inter-county level (because of injury) , and JH was at best an adequate inter-county defender. Not sure that extensive use of either would have altered the course of Kilkenny's year.

The White Feather

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117744754#Comment_117744754

This is live now on TG4 in case ye didn't realise!

dzer2

As long as Kilkenny are being reffed like this they will never win an AI

Comerman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749414#Comment_117749414

Even the linesman is at it

JJs Left Hand

Miles off them lads.

Midfield and forward line unrecognisable from the one that started. So was the starting team wrong or are they just moving pieces for the sake of it out of desperation

droppingball

We are good bit off Galway here only surviving in the game really.

Very one sided refereeing alright but it is effecting margin and not the result

dzer2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749538#Comment_117749538

He has no idea what's out there, don't go to matches just players what comes out of the year before.

JJs Left Hand

Quite disappointed with how that team has performed this year to be honest as I do believe there's talent there. However

1-12 tonight

1-15 in a Leinster final

3-23 against Offaly but 2-15 from 1 player

Is a poor poor return from a forward line.

But hey, Kierans will win Leinster and everything will be great

cson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749573#Comment_117749573

Lot of soft frees alright, but the #5 is a lucky boy to be still on the pitch. Pulled the helmet clean off the Galway chap (which is a red in and of itself) and then a sneaky knee into him as he was walk by him.

I will say as a Galway man, its pretty farcical they can win an AI with only 2 games.

dzer2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749621#Comment_117749621

In fairness the slash back by the Galway 3 in the first half was a straight red too. Down on Glennons head

Rosita

Time for Galway minors to play in Leinster surely.

Dionysis

How many years of the same poor

y trained young lads do we have to watch before something is done. Yet again beaten well by a galway side. Backs were asleep, poor interlink play throughout, and the players touch and control was very very poor. Did we win even one 50:50 ball. Another year of terrible minor performances to go with the last hat of years.

corner back 2

Some good hurlers on the Kilkenny team but Galway a far better outfit. Faster, stronger and know how to play as a team. You seriously wonder about the coaching Kilkenny are getting at all levels. Every team appears to be faster and more athletic and playing to a system together. Without naming names two of Kilkenny's better players tonight were unwilling/unable to pass the ball. How do you get to 17 without this being coached. Despite what some here say there is plenty of talent in Kilkenny but is it being coached/nurtured/developed properly in all aspects of the game.

Dionysis

As Cody’s time is up, so is Mulrooneys.

Comerman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749660#Comment_117749660

There seemed to be a bit of showboating going on at times when the ball could be laid off for a possible score

Dionysis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749621#Comment_117749621

Your 100% right and the Kk lad is lucky to be in the pitch for sure. But you got nearly every ref decision out there, and he had eyes for only one team when it came to blowing the whistle. Not that Kk deserve€ the win.

blackcard

Kilkenny players made very poor decisions and poor use of the ball. Harry Shine needs to take his points when he has a chance, Went on a number of runs but only ended up with one point. I thought they were unlucky to be 6 points behind at half time but hit seven wides and missed two very goal chances. Kilkenny half back should have got the line, management should have taken him off as he had lost it. Referee and officials the difference of a number of points maybe, hard to figure out what they were looking at on a few occasions. I don't think the team were as bad as they looked but looked to be poorly coached

mullinr2

Its mad how things go. A young lad watching Kilkenny hurling in all age groups, is used to watching Kilkenny lose. It's becoming a familiar habit now. We have lost to Galway minor hurlers for 4 years on the trot. Lets see how the last few minor teams can improve for u20 level. Limerick managed to reverse a minor defeat against us at u21 a few years later. Can we do the same to Galway i wonder. There doesn't seem to be the desire or insight in the county at the moment. Is Mulrooney the right man anymore? He has, like Cody, had the gig long enough.

tbiggertycome

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749668#Comment_117749668

Not only is their time up but the biggest culprit for all that is happening is the farcical merry-go-round in the county board and Ned Quinn still pulling strings in the background from Croke Park. The county boards response to all or any criticism of any of the setups is "sure didn't we win 11 All Ireland's". Ned Quinn has also said (when still involved directly) "There's only one show in town" when questioned about our poor underage record at that point. The dismissal of concerns about our underage setup is sickening. As far as their concerned we setup the right conditions to create top hurlers 20 years ago and we instantly started winning senior All Irelands and we won 11 of them. They don't see a problem with the setups, quality of those they have appointed or resources they have allocated to them. The problem is we just don't have lads that are good enough anymore according to them.

There is players in the county but the level of strength and conditioning, management and coaching is way behind our rivals. The fact this team were lucky to beat a weak Wexford team says it all.

How the county board wanted the old development squad coordinator to be re-elected I'll never understand and the tried everything they could to stop the new man getting elected, luckily he got in by 1 vote.

One of Cody's biggest achievements was to pacify the clubs and get them all pulling in the one direction. Unfortunately it has now had a huge adverse effect. Our county board and the club delegates all seem to have Stockholm syndrome. Hopefully clubs will finally wake up and send in some new delegates and that we can put a halt to the merry-go-round of top positions. To be honest we're heading to an Offaly or Clare situation where there is going to be outright civil war. I don't know how long it's going to take but the temperature is rising in the county. The only thing keeping a lid on it is Cody, and clubs afraid that if they criticise it could be seen as being aimed at Cody.

The local press also needs to start telling some home truths and stop sugar coating these failures. I'm not having a go at the players in anyway they tried their best with what tools they've been given but I don't think they've been given the tools (coaching S&C) to compete.