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.22lr revolvers

  • 24-06-2021 8:59pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Just a quick question to anyone who has a non restricted 22lr pistol, how was the cylinder restricted to 5 rounds? Is the extra round welded shut or is it similar to how a shotgun is restricted? I’m just asking whether or not it could be converted back to 6 shots, if the capacity rules changed.


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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    SI 391/2015 was created to clarify the 5 round issue with rimfire pistols. It only says that so long as the magazine is manufactured or modified prior to use to hold no more than 5, you're set.

    It doesn't say permanently, but I suppose a certain degree of permanence is implied.

    Sorry I cannot offer a solution but I'm not in the revolver club so I'll leave it to those that are to answer properly.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    You cannot weld or braze the cylinder, it would render the gun out of proof due to heat treatment issues. You don't know what steel is in the cylinder and applying serious heat could change the steels properties. Making it harder or softer or more brittle, you just don't know.

    Get an inch or two of brass rod, 6mm or so in diameter, and ask someone with a lathe to turn it down to the same diameter as a .22 bullet case, and loctite it into a cylinder chamber. If you don't have access to a lathe or someone with one, chuck it up in a drill and use sandpaper to get it down to size.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,758 ✭✭✭ clivej


    From the few I have seen they were fitted with a small wooden dowel. Easy to put in as long as tight fit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 800 ✭✭✭ Wadi14


    Dowel or I have even seen a raw plug and screw used, don't put anything in that can't be easily removed again without damage to the cylinder.


  • Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    Wooden dowel from what I've seen.
    Sometimes with some rubbery glue stuff to ensure it stays stuck in.

    The wording just specifies modified prior to use, so I know 2 revolver aficionados(pictured below, upon seeing the self loading pistols at the range ;) ) who after each session will move their dowel one chamber onwards, so all get an equal amount of wear.

    Not that I'd be that exacting, but to each their own ;)

    4mf57c.jpg

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



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  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Perfect, thanks for all the replies. Just another question, can I buy a revolver up North and license it here, would I have to restrict the capacity prior to import or not? The legislation does say 'prior to use' so I think you can, but I'm open to correction.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    can I buy a revolver up North and license it here,
    Yes.
    would I have to restrict the capacity prior to import
    Yes.

    Your license, which can only be unrestricted, does not only allow you to use/shoot an unrestricted firearm, but also be in possession of one. So to be in possession of a restricted firearm (unplugged revolver) wouldn't be allowed so you need it plugged prior to import and use.

    If it were solely prior to use you could, in theory, stick a blanker in one chamber, use the firearm, then remove the blanker to go home. You'd be bouncing between restricted and unrestricted but only licensed to have unrestricted.

    In short, plug before importing, if for no other reason to import a restricted firearm won't work or to import it as unrestricted when its restricted is a fraudulent import and carries issues of its own.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,373 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    Cass wrote: »
    SI 391/2015 was created to clarify the 5 round issue with rimfire pistols. It only says that so long as the magazine is manufactured or modified prior to use to hold no more than 5, you're set.

    Does it say "magazine" or "magazine or cylinder"?

    Just wondering as everywhere else refers to magazine or cylinder when referring to capacity.
    I wonder if people are exposed due to the flawed wording of the amendment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭ Richard308


    Perfect, thanks for all the replies. Just another question, can I buy a revolver up North and license it here, would I have to restrict the capacity prior to import or not? The legislation does say 'prior to use' so I think you can, but I'm open to correction.

    You could have it shipped from north to your local restricted dealer. And arrange him to have it plugged. I’ve seen dealers have to declare that prior to sale “magazines will be restricted to 5 rounds only”


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Mellor wrote: »
    Does it say "magazine" or "magazine or cylinder"?
    Magazine.

    SI 21/2008 states that a repeating firearm and semi-auto firearm are firearms which are reloaded, either manually or automatically, from a magaine or cylinder.

    Its the only mention I can find in the SIs, but there may b something else in any of the 18 acts, but a word search has shown nothing yet.
    I wonder if people are exposed due to the flawed wording of the amendment.
    Simple answer is I don't know, however a revolver has a cylinder so I assume that is it covered?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    Cass wrote: »
    Magazine.

    SI 21/2008 states that a repeating firearm and semi-auto firearm are firearms which are reloaded, either manually or automatically, from a magaine or cylinder.

    Its the only mention I can find in the SIs, but there may b something else in any of the 18 acts, but a word search has shown nothing yet.


    Simple answer is I don't know, however a revolver has a cylinder so I assume that is it covered?

    So what you are saying is belt fed may be a possibility...
    2579920.jpg

    I'll show myself out... :D

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Limited to 5 shots, perhaps*.






    *Joking, btw, for anyone thinking a 5 shot belt fed firearm may actually be legal

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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,373 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    Cass wrote: »
    Magazine.

    SI 21/2008 states that a repeating firearm and semi-auto firearm are firearms which are reloaded, either manually or automatically, from a magaine or cylinder.

    Its the only mention I can find in the SIs, but there may b something else in any of the 18 acts, but a word search has shown nothing yet.


    Simple answer is I don't know, however a revolver has a cylinder so I assume that is it covered?

    Yeah, that's the one I was thinking off. repeating/semi-automatic firearms refers to both magazine or cylinder. But it doesn't mention the 5 rounds limit.

    S.I. No. 391/2015 added that.
    (iii) firearms which are designed for use with 0.22 inch long rifle rim fire percussion ammunition and use magazines that have been manufactured or modified prior to use so as to accommodate no more than five rounds of ammunition”.

    Seems like a omission to be. As that clearly doesn't cover revolvers.
    To be clear, not arguing agaisnt revolvers, just the sloppy SIs.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Mellor wrote: »
    But it doesn't mention the 5 rounds limit.

    S.I. No. 391/2015 added that.
    No, SI 337 of 2009 added the 5 round limit as it amended SI 21/2008 due to the release of the 2009 Criminal justice (Misc. Prov) Act which effectively banned C/F pistols and brought about the 5 round limit in .22lr pistols.

    SI 391/2015 had one real purpose, to clarify the stance on restricting magazines to 5 rounds.
    Seems like a omission to be. As that clearly doesn't cover revolvers.
    To be clear, not arguing agaisnt revolvers, just the sloppy SIs.

    Yeah its sloppy wording. You could argue the "intent" of the SI, from either side, but its another case of if people are happy to leave it as is, then leave it as is. IOW neither AGS, DoJ, or the shooting community want to rock the boat because history has taught us that if any side pushes for change, its never good and rarely benefits us.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,373 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    Cass wrote: »
    No, SI 337 of 2009 added the 5 round limit as it amended SI 21/2008 due to the release of the 2009 Criminal justice (Misc. Prov) Act which effectively banned C/F pistols and brought about the 5 round limit in .22lr pistols.

    Ah, I forgot about that one.
    (iii) other firearms using 0.22 inch long rifle rim fire percussion ammunition provided that the maximum magazine capacity of such a firearm does not exceed five rounds and that the barrel length of the firearm is greater than 10 cm.”.
    (iii) firearms which are designed for use with 0.22 inch long rifle rim fire percussion ammunition and use magazines that have been manufactured or modified prior to use so as to accommodate no more than five rounds of ammunition”.


    Seems to clarify that modified is permitted, in addition to off the shelf 5 round mags. Plus removed length issue. But still seems cylinder is omitted. Sloppy.
    I'll leave it at that. Rocking boats and all that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ jb88


    Any .22 revolver that Ive seen is a 10 shot conversion where 5 of the holes of the 10 in the cylinder are plugged permanently.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Any idea how they do it?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭ BSA International


    Only use timber dowel as anything heavier may affect timing of cylinder as it moves to next chamber, apparently.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,334 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    @smmember 20. Why not apply for a restricted .22 license in your case?You have a good justification for either 10 shot mags or revolver as you compete in NI? I have heard of some folks getting restricted .22 licenses for this purpose both NI and internationally[pre covid].

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ smmember20


    Can't license any short firearm as restricted if not licensed prior to November 2008 as far as I am aware (sorry AFSIK) but as I said it is unnecessary as possession of 10 shot mags is not unlawful, as long as they are not used in your .22 pistol in the South on Authorised ranges!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ smmember20


    Yellow raw plugs are a perfect fit, light and do not effect the weight of the cylinder



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,334 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Think that might only apply to CF, as there are some 22 pistols going about as restricted.I know of one of them, now whether this was because of the SNAFUS with the court cases, and the owner has tried to correct this a good few times with no success,or some other aberration, but if there is one, there might and possibly are more?

    Be careful on this possession wording. Because if you possess a 10 shot mag and a pistol for it, they could possibly nail it to you on "intent".This is the same thing with the EU directive on semi-auto rifles and over 10 shot mags.If you have "in your possession" that means even within your 4 walls just the mag body for that particular type of gun.

    The legislation implies you have "intent" to convert your semi rifle into a CAT A prohibited firearm,by simply inserting the greater than 10 shot mag into it.And lets not go to the mess that has ensued if you have a pistol carbine that can take high cap pistol magazines of 20 shots! After all, they could argue as to why would you have such if you were not intending to use it in a 10 round capacity down here?Ok you would probably get away with it by proving you use it outside the State for competitions,but it would possibly a lengthy and costly day out in court to prove such.Just my read on it.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Grizzly 45 - Think that might only apply to CF, as there are some 22 pistols going about as restricted.

    Its not the gun so much as the license tht cannot be got. Anything pistol and restricted cannot be licensed after 2009. Restricted 22lr pistols are out there but they're "hang arounds" from before the ban. You won't get one since 2009 as its illegal to issue the license for them and if any license were issued it would stand moot due to the legislation. IOW you wouldn't be licensed, even with a license as the CS has no authroity to supercede the legislative ban on the licensing of them.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,373 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    The legislation is clear. But it doesn’t mention revolvers, so it’s all interpretation to some degree. Modified is no different. Doesn’t need to be permanent. But, at the same time, I would rely on anything too easily removed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    Will do, though I doubt it'll get that far once I start firing questions back at my FO.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    I'd issue a cautionary note here lads.


    While you might be onto something @smmember20 about the interprettion of the wording, for the sake of an "easy life" and so as not to tempt fate would it not be simpler to have the magazines blocked at all times (excluding those with restricted licenses) and avoid the situation that may arise if an inspection finds unblocked mags?

    I mean to block a mag/cylinder and then unblock it while stored in the house to block it again prior to use seems redundant if its only purpose is to prove a point. Not trying to be a dick btw, so no offence intended and its not a jibe at yourself, its more a broad sweeping cautionary note to all. If you don't have a restricted license have all your mags/cylinders blocked. If you travel over the border where the license coers you but you are not subject to the same restirctions (on mags) then unbloc when you get there and block again before you return.

    As for co-operation. The same applies. If the mags are blocked then you provide no reason to argue the semantics of the wording of the SI.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ smmember20


    Absolutely agree on all fronts, from a personal viewpoint I only have mags that are 10 shot when I am out of the state, the dowels I use are easily inserted prior to travel down and if you were to review my revolver it is reduced to 5 at all times in the South.

    I believe the main point I was making was simply that individuals are having pistols confiscated because they have unrestricted magazines in their possession and the law is the law it states modified before use, however for sure it is common sense to have them restricted at all times, but again I say you cannot be convicted for what you might do so where is the legislative support for some FO's confiscating pistols where they find 10 shot mags in the persons house!!! That is my concern.

    I have posted advices already on being absolutely sure to comply with the firearms legislation and I stand by compliance and not defiance as some might!



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,334 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    VERY MUCH So! Ever hear of "self endightment" a legal term for "legally hanging yourself by presenting evidence to assist in such." B

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,334 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    However the reports I have heard from the Balbriggan district was the FO was turning up at any time of the day or night unannounced and actually carrying out searches of bags etc in the person room, all be it asking permission "is that your range bag? Yes, Can I look in it. Unfortunately, FO had such success using these tactics that he managed to highlight what would appear to the Super with no real knowledge of sporting firearms a real crime wave!

    WHAT THE SERIOUS ACTUAL FUK.Com was this FO doing?That's a total illegal search and anyone who acquiesces to such should be onto a lawyer soonest for an actual lawsuit against this force. They were [1] invited into this person's premises to do one thing inspect a magazine of a firearm for a legal capacity.NOT to go rooting around minus a search warrant in a person's private property... Did the officer have probable cause and grounds to search that persons bag on private property, and if so how did they justify it? [2] Pitching up at any old time isn't on either, the law states "a reasonable hour" Mostly assumed to be business hours,or make an appointment thereafter.[Under a warrant,a different matter]

    Christ on a bicycle,any half decent lawyer will have a field day with that carry-on.A drug dealer wouldn't be treated like this.


    Finally I would caution against being uncooperative as long as it is reasonable. The reason I say this is that it would not be difficult for an inspecting Garda to cite suspicion of unlawful activity and get a search warrant and then the **it storm follows: I can confirm I know of one case where it happened already.

    Do you mean know your rights and when an LEO is overstepping their authority?. This is why it is "real" to video this whole process if it happens to you. What you have described above is basic thuggery in uniform, and the only way it is stopped is by standing up to it legally of course and making complaints. As whoever this poor sod was, who was legally violated like this.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ smmember20


    Some folks are not as brave as you are, some are just ordinary folks going about their business and unfortunately this FO acted the bully and got away with it. The unfortunate thing is that his strategy worked and he found sufficient numbers of individuals not in compliance with the legislation that it has clearly been acted upon by the policy unit in HQ and the directive has gone nationwide!

    In any case I did say on the other thread I was finished commenting on these matters, so this is it!



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