.22lr revolvers

Mellor · 16-09-2021 2:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117896260#Comment_117896260

Agreed.

Unblocking to block before is a bit of work to prove a point. And would then require you to convince somebody that you’d actually go to those lengths.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117896718#Comment_117896718

Is it still an illegal search if they ask and the person consents. I wouldn’t be sure, but it does feel like it would void the requirement for a warrant.

Grizzly 45 · 16-09-2021 9:36pm

The most important part is missing to this story,WHY was this search or appointment made in the first place?

Without this information, we can't judge how legal or otherwise this Garda's actions are...It's highly unlikely that some Garda just took it into his head to randomly inspect some pistol shooter .22 magazine in the Balbriggan[? ]area Or that area of Dublin has very little crime for aGS to be dealing with. Did someone rat this owner out? Was he acting the bollix with the pistol? Did he import a 10 shot mag recently and customs let it thru and tipped off AGS? We can only speculate unless more info comes out.

But going on the information provided so far by the OP, it would be;

Certainly very questionable.As the officer would have to and need to demonstrate probable cause as to why he felt it necessary to go outside the remit of his original appointment of inspecting a magazine[singular] in a pistol held by a licensed owner 1st off. Remember this was done minus a warrant,which must specify the time,date location place to be searched and for what/whom]

More to this story than we are being told folks!

Mellor · 18-09-2021 11:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901485#Comment_117901485

Being done without a warrant would have all sorts of criteria. But it wasn’t, so none of that applies.

You claimed the search was illegal. I have doubts whether that’s correct.

Probably cause or reasonable suspicion is required to search somebody against their will. Also doesn’t apply here. The Garda asked permission, and the owner permitted him to look in the bag. I think the owner could have said no, and the garda would need to come back with a warrant. But as soon as he gives permission, there’s a good chance that he’d lose any claims if it being illegal.

But maybe more info needed. As I don’t get why anyone would give permission if he was has something he shouldn’t in there.

Grizzly 45 · 18-09-2021 1:48pm

I'd contest it as illegal,or maybe expand on it that the evidence seized was done in a questionable manner,[bearing in mind the info we have on this topic] as it seems to go outside the stated reason of the audit.To check a pistol and A[1] magazine, presumably the one in the pistol? That should have been the end to it there and then. So what justification or reason did the officer have then to request to search this persons range bag?And if nothing had been there, what then, permission to search the house? Does it seem that this officer was pre-armed with some knowledge to look for another mag or mags? Nor were the mags in plain sight either. He had to request to look for them in a particular area.

As said there is a lot of bits missing from this story,esp the reason for this particular interview?

Proable cause aSFIK does not require it to be used holding someone against their will.

smmember20 · 18-09-2021 9:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907801#Comment_117907801

Nothing missing from the story

The FO had established a modus operande of appearing at firearms owners doors and requesting entry for inspection unannounced...........fact

1) FO knocked on the door and requested entry to do an inspection, unannounced and no appointment made.

2) Entry agreed by the individual

3) Inspected safe where Pistol stored (bolted to wall all good)

4) Inspected ammo storage, in safe bolted to wall no issues, examined magazine for gun, limited to 5 shot, checked ammo allowance and compliance, no issues.

5) FO observed bag on floor beside gun safe and asked if it was her range bag (yes) asked could he look in it (she was hardly going to say no!), nothing to hide she agreed.

6) FO thanked her commended that she was perfectly compliant with the legislation more that a lot of individuals he had inspected!

End of inspection

Mellor · 19-09-2021 4:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907801#Comment_117907801

And I think you’d lose that contest on the information given. If they just pick up the bag and rummaged through it, you would absolutely have a value argument. But the giving of consent changes everything. A good barrister might have it excluded on other means. But not because it was an illegal search.

Where does the 1 (singular) magazine come from? I’d imagine the restriction applies to all magazines. Not just the one inserted at a given time. Certainly wouldn’t like to rely on it. Also sounds like the inspection included a check of ammo storage. Checking ammo isn’t stored in a range bag is not unexpected.

Ammo storage could be a topic in itself.

Cass · 19-09-2021 1:33pm

Grizzly 45 - I'd contest it as illegal,or maybe expand on it that the evidence seized was done in a questionable manner,

Apologies if I've missed something in all the above posts, but this seems an argument over "nothing". There can be no question of illegality in terms of the search as the Garda was invited in, allowed to check the safes, and when asked was given permission to check the bag.

If consent, for whatever reason, was given by the firearm/home owner then that is the end of the matter. Its why the Garda asked and did not demand.

We have known about this "loophole" for some time. They [AGS] can only request compliance/permission, without a warrant, and if consent is given they work away, if permission (to enter the premises or search) is refused the Garda simply walks away, marks the house as "non compliant" and you can expect a follow up of some sort in the future (hence the "loophole" regarding warrantless searches).

I fail to see any other way to look at this or how it can in any way be construed as illegal. If you think there is no cause, well the firearms act allows, indirectly, for home checks for the suitability of the owner to adequately and safely store the firearms. Section 4(2)(d). There is no limit on the amount of checks or the frequency of them. The firearms act does not say you must allow the Garda in, but it does state the issing person must be satisfied the applicant has complied with the storage requirements set out and the only way to verify that compliance is to allow a check.

AS said you can refuse the home check, but then its a case of "not checked, refused". This check also DOES NOT state its only when applying, but that the person continues to comply with the secure storage requirements which once again would imply continuous, randomn, checks.

Mellor · 19-09-2021 3:37pm

If consent, for whatever reason, was given by the firearm/home owner then that is the end of the matter. Its why the Garda asked and did not demand.

Exactly. Nobody was forcibly searched. They didn’t have to say yes.

[quote]I fail to see any other way to look at this or how it can in any way be construed as illegal. If you think there is no cause, well the firearms act allows, indirectly, for home checks for the suitability of the owner to adequately and safely store the firearms. [/exactly]

This is the crux of it. People agree to comply with certain conditions when licensed. It’s not unreasonable AGS to check on that compliance.

But everyone can make their own choices.

Grizzly 45 · 19-09-2021 8:16pm

Also sounds like the inspection included a check of ammo storage. Checking ammo isn’t stored in a range bag is not unexpected.

Why not, if it is a "Locked container" as per the act? So long as it is separate from the gun?As per the act.

Where does the 1 (singular) magazine come from? I’d imagine the restriction applies to all magazines. Not just the one inserted at a given time

From nowhere, because the act[s] doesn't have any ASFIK statements on AGS members checking on the condition or mechanics of firearms capacity or other functionality or accessories in someones home. As it would be unlikely that the average Garda would be trained in such. That is usually a job for Garda ballistics or possibly a trained and card-carrying member of AGS with firearms experience...Maybe the Garda was? Plus,it is a point of evidence to hand or whatever the legal term is

.It is again like the broken taillight case. Are you stopping someone for a traffic offence, or are you using that as probable cause to search the vehicle because the driver is acting nervously because they are a specific profile? Or did the Garda have already pre specific knowledge of more mags,and just used logic to check the most obvious container?

Going by the act[s] they are entitled to inspect [1] The storage and security of the firearms and ammo [2]Serial numbers corresponding to the licenses for some reason[4] if present in possession after an incident like a murder in the locality.[which seems to fit according to them under part 1,as it has happened to me once when there was a murder victim found within a mile of the house] [3] At a reasonable hour...Which is open to interpretation..but we will ASSume it's within a couple of hours post business hours at max, and that by appointment? According to the OP, this wasn't within reasonable hours either. So we have to ASSume the Garda just showed up at X hour wanting to inspect this pistol minus an appointment? So the owner was well within his rights to tell the AGS it's not convenient now come back tomorrow or ring me and reschedule without gaining the need of attention from the ERU or any sort of demerit? He is not suspected or wanted for a crime either at this stage and as far as we know not threatening anyone or himself with harm with the gun? So again we are left minus info as to the Why of this story Why let the Garda in?And as you said why leave something illegal in your range bag? And Why did the AGS ask particularly to search that right off?Why not the sock drawer,under his bed,or the whole room?

Cass · 19-09-2021 9:32pm

Grizzly 45 - At a reasonable hour...Which is open to interpretation..but we will ASSume it's within a couple of hours post business hours at max

Assume nothing. Reasonable for one person may not be so for another.

Grizzly 45 - the owner was well within his rights to tell the AGS it's not convenient now come back tomorrow or ring me and reschedule

If I read the above correctly they didn't so the point is moot.

Grizzly 45 - And Why did the AGS ask particularly to search that right off?Why not the sock drawer,under his bed,or the whole room?

Because one is search with consent within the confines of the visit (the guns, safe, ammo, shooting bags) and anything else is a search of the premises which can be done with consent, but would require more explanation I'd imagine as to why, the good reason for such, and why it was asked for. IOW the Garda can ask to check/search anything within the "meaning" of the act and everything is requires the full monty (warrant, etc).

I'll say again, I'm not seeing the issue with this. FO arrived, person invited them in, allowed a check, and all was done with consent and confined to the firearm aspect of the visit. Why look for trouble where none exists?

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.22lr revolvers

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