contractors revising post completion

the_pen_turner

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the landscaper designed absolutely everything about this job , the only thing we objected to was the pergola as he had it in sited in a different location to the patio which we did not want , had he given us a sketch of the pergola and where it would be sited in relation to the patio , we would have objected at the start , he could also have sketched the size of the pergola , we didnt expect him to sketch out the lawn or the shrub beds as we knew exactly how big the lawn would be as he just pointed to the wall surrounding our house and said " pull that down and extend the lawn into the surrounding field as far as the neighbours boundary "

it was unmistakably clear

That different to what you have said previously.

Mad_maxx

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You have the idea in your head. It's up to you to ensure that the tradesmen fully understands the job. He didn't even know what part of the garden he was put the pergolas. You are supposed to provide a basic drawing of the garden and where everything should go


I don't want to sound mean or hard. I understand that you might not understand how engaging a contractor works.
There is no nice way to say it but this is your fault. The contractor is blameless in this.

I say this with respect. I have no ill will towards you. It is what it is though.

I say this with respect too , you provide absolute immunity for the contractors poor communication and absolutely none to us

its not a fortune of money , its more the principal of the thing , in truth we never knew how big the pergola was going to be in the mind of the contractor , it was late in the day when the detail of the size of the pergola was thrashed out clearly and even at the commencement of construction , he made a mistake and put the posts in the wrong spot as he thought it would look better in his eyes , we had to get him to pull two up and replace them so it looked more square , this was after us spelling our intentions out clearly and providing him with a picture of a pergola

he sort of went off on his own little solo runs without consulting us first , difficult character in that sense who believed he should do what he wanted and the customer will like it

Mad_maxx

the_pen_turner wrote: »

That different to what you have said previously.

what is different ?

the_pen_turner

Mad_maxx wrote: »

what is different ?

At first you told him what you wanted now your saying g he designed it

Sleeper12

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the landscaper designed absolutely everything about this job , the only thing we objected to was the pergola as he had it in sited in a different location to the patio which we did not want , had he given us a sketch of the pergola and where it would be sited in relation to the patio , we would have objected at the start , he could also have sketched the size of the pergola , we didnt expect him to sketch out the lawn or the shrub beds as we knew exactly how big the lawn would be as he just pointed to the wall surrounding our house and said " pull that down and extend the lawn into the surrounding field as far as the neighbours boundary "

it was unmistakably clear

When he designed it did he show where the pergola was going? Did you ask him? Or did you in fact pick where it was to go?



Either he designed it or you picked the spot for the pergola.

Mad_maxx

the_pen_turner wrote: »

At first you told him what you wanted now your saying g he designed it

He designed the shape of the new - extended lawn , location of shrub beds , content of shrub beds as well as dressing around said beds , when i say designed , he did so in his own head , he provided no sketches but we were clear on what he planned to do , the only area he communicated poorly was the pergola , perhaps he did not have as much experience when it comes to pergolas ?

we told him we also wanted a patio and the size of said patio was listed in the quote and priced

the pergola was also listed in quote and priced , there was no detail in the quote as to its size but we assumed it had a footprint of that of the patio as we assumed the pergola would be sited directly over the patio

Sleeper12

Mad_maxx wrote: »

He designed the shape of the new - extended lawn , location of shrub beds , content of shrub beds as well as dressing around said beds

we told we also wanted a patio and the size of said patio was listed in the quote and priced

the pergola was also listed in quote and priced , there was no detail in the quote as to its size but we assumed it had a footprint of that of the patio as we assumed the pergola would be sited directly over the patio

In bold is why it's not his fault

listermint

Mad_maxx wrote: »

He designed the shape of the new - extended lawn , location of shrub beds , content of shrub beds as well as dressing around said beds , when i say designed , he did so in his own head , he provided no sketches but we were clear on what he planned to do , the only area he communicated poorly was the pergola , perhaps he did not have as much experience when it comes to pergolas ?

we told him we also wanted a patio and the size of said patio was listed in the quote and priced

the pergola was also listed in quote and priced , there was no detail in the quote as to its size but we assumed it had a footprint of that of the patio as we assumed the pergola would be sited directly over the patio

Genuinely don't assume. Often Pergolas do not fit the the entire patio. They are smaller than or set back from it. This is to give rainwater runoff rather than lashing the lawn out of it. Depending on roof design in some cases it's to give sunny spot outside the Pergola shade to move the patio furniture to.

It's not a one size fits all situation.

Mad_maxx

Sleeper12 wrote: »

When he designed it did he show where the pergola was going? Did you ask him? Or did you in fact pick where it was to go?



Either he designed it or you picked the spot for the pergola.

he poured lime on the ground and pointed to it along with saying "thats the patio" , we then assumed the pergola would be sited directly over the patio that was the extent to the sketch work nearly eight months ago , during a conversation approx three weeks prior to commencement of the entire job , the penny dropped with us that he had planned to site the pergola in a seperate location to the patio , three metres away from it

we then told him we wanted the pergola directly over the patio and thus only marginally smaller in area than the patio itself

the_pen_turner

Mad_maxx wrote: »

He designed the shape of the new - extended lawn , location of shrub beds , content of shrub beds as well as dressing around said beds , when i say designed , he did so in his own head , he provided no sketches but we were clear on what he planned to do , the only area he communicated poorly was the pergola , perhaps he did not have as much experience when it comes to pergolas ?

we told him we also wanted a patio and the size of said patio was listed in the quote and priced

the pergola was also listed in quote and priced , there was no detail in the quote as to its size but we assumed it had a footprint of that of the patio as we assumed the pergola would be sited directly over the patio

I think I would go 50 50 on blame. Both side were not on the same page. Toyr right a simple sketch would have helped but either side could have done that.

Mad_maxx

Sleeper12 wrote: »

In bold is why it's not his fault

change " he assumed " for " we assumed " and it works the same way

as stated earlier , you absolve him entirely of blame for poor responsibility and place all with us in terms of adequate communication

Mad_maxx

listermint wrote: »

Genuinely don't assume. Often Pergolas do not fit the the entire patio. They are smaller than or set back from it. This is to give rainwater runoff rather than lashing the lawn out of it. Depending on roof design in some cases it's to give sunny spot outside the Pergola shade to move the patio furniture to.

It's not a one size fits all situation.

the patio footprint does extend by a metre beyond the pergola as finished , the contractor originally envisaged the pergola sitting on gravel and completely divorced from the patio

he actually would have thus saved on gravel as he avoided laying two bases in the end

Sleeper12

Mad_maxx wrote:

change " he assumed " for " we assumed " and it works the same way

It's up to you to tell him where you want it. Do you go to a new barber and assume that he will cut your hair the way you want it or do you explain how you want it?

You come on a forum looking for advice from professionals. You then argue with each comment or advice given by each poster. This I don't understand at all. If you started out saying that you only wanted to vent & not want advice then I would understand.

I'll leave you to it. No hard feelings. Hopefully the contractor might meet you in the middle as a good will gesture. Have a nice weekend

the_pen_turner

Mad_maxx wrote: »

change " he assumed " for " we assumed " and it works the same way

as stated earlier , you absolve him entirely of blame for poor responsibility and place all with us in terms of adequate communication

I think this is one of those situations where we need to hear both sides to work out what went wrong.
He could very well be wrong but so could you. You could have said something that he interpreted differently to what you meant. Or simply you used a technical word wrongly and he used it correctly.

I get that people are saying the OP should have supplied a "drawing a 5 year old could do". And I do agree, to a degree, that the OP could have done a quick sketch.

However, OP is a homeowner that probably works in an office somewhere dealing with insurance, or sells baguettes in Tesco. He shouldn't be expected to know the ins and outs of construction work or what is or is not expected.

I don't randomly send my car insurer a picture of my passport and a note of where i tend to buy my tyres, in the hope that it's what they want. They specifically layout a series of documents that I need to give them to proceed with my car insurance quote.


When the chap doing the pergola arrived on site, he should have had a notepad for his measurements, and notes. A quick sketch at this stage takes about 5-10 minutes and everyone has a better idea of what's going on around them.

If he quoted in November, and was doing the job in June, he should have rang OP in late April/early May and said "look, i've just been to the timber yard and prices are way up on November. I can do the job as agreed, but i'm afraid it'll cost an extra €550 - do you want to proceed with this?"


Everyone's a winner, and the lad doing the pergola should be doing this with every single customer he has, so no one is complaining after a job and the customer isn't expected to have to supply anything unexpected.

For what it's worth, I think there should be a course out there, for builders, that explains customer interactions to them.

It seems a lot of tradesmen are just used to sitting on building sites all the time. Lads that may well be perfectly competent in their line of work, but have no idea how to work outside of a building site. The kind of fellas that rock up to your house, with an immaculate new kitchen, and throw their rusty old toolbox onto the countertop. The plumbers that drag a radiator around the floor, or think something going wrong is funny (it may well be, to the tradesman, but not to the homeowner).

A few tradesmen are good at this kind of stuff, but a lot of them are far too rough and ready and end up situations like in this thread, as they've no idea how a customer interaction/relationship is supposed to work.

Mad_maxx

Deleted User wrote: »

For what it's worth, I think there should be a course out there, for builders, that explains customer interactions to them.

It seems a lot of tradesmen are just used to sitting on building sites all the time. Lads that may well be perfectly competent in their line of work, but have no idea how to work outside of a building site. The kind of fellas that rock up to your house, with an immaculate new kitchen, and throw their rusty old toolbox onto the countertop. The plumbers that drag a radiator around the floor, or think something going wrong is funny (it may well be, to the tradesman, but not to the homeowner).

A few tradesmen are good at this kind of stuff, but a lot of them are far too rough and ready and end up situations like in this thread, as they've no idea how a customer interaction/relationship is supposed to work.

very true , there is also a culture in this country of just gormlessly nodding to whatever the contractor says including if said contractor feels like add libbing on price in an arbitrary fashion

bit entitled really

the_pen_turner

[Deleted User] wrote: »

For what it's worth, I think there should be a course out there, for builders, that explains customer interactions to them.

It seems a lot of tradesmen are just used to sitting on building sites all the time. Lads that may well be perfectly competent in their line of work, but have no idea how to work outside of a building site. The kind of fellas that rock up to your house, with an immaculate new kitchen, and throw their rusty old toolbox onto the countertop. The plumbers that drag a radiator around the floor, or think something going wrong is funny (it may well be, to the tradesman, but not to the homeowner).

A few tradesmen are good at this kind of stuff, but a lot of them are far too rough and ready and end up situations like in this thread, as they've no idea how a customer interaction/relationship is supposed to work.

I agree with you. But that's a much bigger debate and probably for another day.
There are lots of reasons for it.
Trades are seen as something the bad at school boys go into
Education is very poor for these kids that learn in the schools way
Customers not willing to pay for a tradesman to run their company in a way that provides the feedback they require
The general disrespect for trades
Lack of certification and quality control
No one wants to pay the increase to do the job properly, it's a race to the bottom.
Apprentices are 7sed a labourers instead of actually learning
A lot 9f people have champagne ideas but lemonade budgets
And a lot from the trades as well

jimmycrackcorm

Mad_maxx wrote:

the pergola was also listed in quote and priced , there was no detail in the quote as to its size but we assumed it had a footprint of that of the patio as we assumed the pergola would be sited directly over the patio

If the quoted pergola is the same size, what is the extra charge for?

listermint

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If the quoted pergola is the same size, what is the extra charge for?

Probably because when they went to go buy the timber the timber prices around the world have sky rocketed.

No contractor is going to swallow that unless the contract specifically states it.

Mad_maxx

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I agree with you. But that's a much bigger debate and probably for another day.
There are lots of reasons for it.
Trades are seen as something the bad at school boys go into
Education is very poor for these kids that learn in the schools way
Customers not willing to pay for a tradesman to run their company in a way that provides the feedback they require
The general disrespect for trades
Lack of certification and quality control
No one wants to pay the increase to do the job properly, it's a race to the bottom.
Apprentices are 7sed a labourers instead of actually learning
A lot 9f people have champagne ideas but lemonade budgets
And a lot from the trades as well

" race to the bottom "

oh please , there are no tradesmen out there to do anything and as such they can charge what they like , tradesmen costs in Ireland are much higher than in the likes of the UK

tradesmen who are willing to work hard right now are making a lot of money ( more power to them BTW )

listermint

Mad_maxx wrote: »

" race to the bottom "

oh please , there are no tradesmen out there to do anything and as such they can charge what they like , tradesmen costs in Ireland are much higher than in the likes of the UK

tradesmen who are willing to work hard right now are making a lot of money ( more power to them BTW )

Costs in the UK are up to. You may not be aware but Brexit and a pandemic managed to ensure an exodus back to the continent.

Mad_maxx

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If the quoted pergola is the same size, what is the extra charge for?

I dont know if the original pergola he had in mind was much smaller as he didnt tell us the dimensions and didnt show us a sketch , we assumed it was exactly the same size as the patio or slightly less of a footprint as parking the pergola directly over the patio is the conventional way , in the end ( now ) the pergola is directly over the patio bar a metre in front of patio

Mad_maxx

listermint wrote: »

Probably because when they went to go buy the timber the timber prices around the world have sky rocketed.

No contractor is going to swallow that unless the contract specifically states it.

that effectively hands contractors a blank cheque to add lib to their hearts content , they can exploit under the guise of uncontrollable material costs

listermint

Mad_maxx wrote: »

that effectively hands contractors a blank cheque to add lib to their hearts content , they can exploit under the guise of uncontrollable material costs

Once again. ..

Contract ! My brother in law is a landscaper he won't do a job without a contract . He does designs in drawing and then iPad and sends to clients. Everything is written down. Too many folks making stuff up and Changing their minds and then off to Facebook. So everything is in contract that both sides sign.



That's how it should be done always.

Mad_maxx

listermint wrote: »

Once again. ..

Contract ! My brother in law is a landscaper he won't do a job without a contract . He does designs in drawing and then iPad and sends to clients. Everything is written down. Too many folks making stuff up and Changing their minds and then off to Facebook. So everything is in contract that both sides sign.



That's how it should be done always.

so no contract means the contractor can lob on extra ?

the_pen_turner

Mad_maxx wrote: »

" race to the bottom "

oh please , there are no tradesmen out there to do anything and as such they can charge what they like , tradesmen costs in Ireland are much higher than in the likes of the UK

tradesmen who are willing to work hard right now are making a lot of money ( more power to them BTW )

its still happening.
a lot of the rates for the guys on the ground are back to decent levels that allow them to run a business

the_pen_turner

Mad_maxx wrote: »

so no contract means the contractor can lob on extra ?

i would say your more likely to get added costs with a contract if you change or add to the scope of work.

looksee

listermint wrote: »

Genuinely don't assume. Often Pergolas do not fit the the entire patio. They are smaller than or set back from it. This is to give rainwater runoff rather than lashing the lawn out of it. Depending on roof design in some cases it's to give sunny spot outside the Pergola shade to move the patio furniture to.

It's not a one size fits all situation.

Within this thread there is even difference in what people understand is a pergola. There would not be any rainwater run off from a pergola in my understanding as a pergola doesn't have a roof. A pagoda or a gazebo or a pavillion does, but they are different structures.

And that's just my understanding, I have no doubt others will not agree.

listermint

looksee wrote: »

Within this thread there is even difference in what people understand is a pergola. There would not be any rainwater run off from a pergola in my understanding as a pergola doesn't have a roof. A pagoda or a gazebo or a pavillion does, but they are different structures.

And that's just my understanding, I have no doubt others will not agree.

Hence drawings are so vital .