red clover

weatherbyfoxer

anyone have much experience of red clover?.the silage ground here hasn't been reseeded since 2005 and the more traditional lower feed value grasses have now taken over, have been thinking about getting red clover stitched into next spring..im wondering could this be done with spraying off old grass or whats the best way of doing it do people find?

blue5000

Can you plough it?

weatherbyfoxer

blue5000 wrote: »

Can you plough it?

i can plough it but im looking into other options that could be more cost effective

mahoney_j

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

anyone have much experience of red clover?.the silage ground here hasn't been reseeded since 2005 and the more traditional lower feed value grasses have now taken over, have been thinking about getting red clover stitched into next spring..im wondering could this be done with spraying off old grass or whats the best way of doing it do people find?

Full reseed better job ,red clover makes great silage and saves on n but if your planning on grazing this ground don’t bother with it as it dosnt stand up to any sort of grazing damage ,it’ll thrive in fertile ground where 3 cuts silage taken and maby a z graze in spring /autumn

Cavanjack

Would you try Disc, Harrow and sow it. Much easier than the plough in storey ground anyway.

weatherbyfoxer

ground here takes drought most summers,so from the but from the bit of research im doing clover seem to do well in those conditions

Reggie.

Cavanjack wrote: »

Would you try Disc, Harrow and sow it. Much easier than the plough in storey ground anyway.

If going that route and if its silage ground then make sure its disced half to death. If not the crows will pull up the scraws and it will come in on the silage

Reggie.

This is a high clover mix that I sowed about a month ago for the BIL

Cavanjack

Reggie. wrote: »

This is a high clover mix that I sowed about a month ago for the BIL

Great looking job. Very clean looking, doesn’t seem to be a weed in it. Is it for grazing?

Reggie.

Cavanjack wrote: »

Great looking job. Very clean looking, doesn’t seem to be a weed in it. Is it for grazing?

It's a silage mix

weatherbyfoxer

Reggie. wrote: »

This is a high clover mix that I sowed about a month ago for the BIL

have you much experience of stiching in clover with your machine reggie?

Reggie.

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

have you much experience of stiching in clover with your machine reggie?

White over is OK as its capulised but red clover can be hard to get to establish as it is a naked seed

GrasstoMilk

Reggie. wrote: »

White over is OK as its capulised but red clover can be hard to get to establish as it is a naked seed

Is the agritech one not coated?
We stiched red clover into silage ground a month ago
The red clover was up in 5 days

Reggie.

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Is the agritech one not coated?
We stiched red clover into silage ground a month ago
The red clover was up in 5 days

Yeah but it's not got a capsule around it like the white clover. It's very open to environmental conditions. Great growth the last while hence you got the good strike.

weatherbyfoxer

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Is the agritech one not coated?
We stiched red clover into silage ground a month ago
The red clover was up in 5 days

did you spray off the grass first?

GrasstoMilk

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

did you spray off the grass first?

No left the existing sward in it
It it to thr clay though to give new grass and clover a chance

That was it at 3.5 weeks sown

weatherbyfoxer

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

No left the existing sward in it
It it to thr clay though to give new grass and clover a chance

That was it at 3.5 weeks sown

looks great,what sort of clover/grass seed mix did you put in?

Reggie.

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

No left the existing sward in it
It it to thr clay though to give new grass and clover a chance

That was it at 3.5 weeks sown

Look at the cut of them hands

GrasstoMilk

Reggie. wrote: »

Look at the cut of them hands

Thats what working hands look like

GrasstoMilk

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

looks great,what sort of clover/grass seed mix did you put in?

This from agritech

Castlekeeper

The thing with red clover is that it is expected to do a lot when people go there, and it needs particular agronomy in order for it to be successful. Coupled with this, persistence is an issue as it doesn't tiller, so good establishment and development of a high % of red clover is paramount to its success as a crop for the next 3-5 years.
The best way to ensure this is a full reseed, taking the existing sward out of the equation.
When established, less than 50% red clover in summer carries a risk of being a waste of time and money being neither here nor there.

Water John

This would be a great time to reseed with clover, temp low in the spring. Be sure to mow the red clover crop high and as little disturbance as possible, no conditioner on the mower, super silage feed.
As a bonus for sheep farmers it's supposed to significantly increase lambing rate. Reality is it will last about 4 years and need to be sown again.

GrasstoMilk

4.5 weeks sown
Delighted with how it's took

Mooooo

A trip to solohead may be worth it for those interested in clover

blue5000

Mooooo wrote: »

A trip to solohead may be worth it for those interested in clover

It is, until you find out that Solohead farm was originally a sludge dump for Tipp co-op cheese plant. Let's just say the P&K levels are very good. Having said that they have done a fantastic job draining the land as well.

K.G.

Doing a little research on red clover/italian with a view to putting one particular silage block under it and cutting it 3 to 4 times a year.the idea is that the nitrogen saved could be used on home block and maybe get a higher protein feed in later cuts.looking back here some lads tried it back through the year and wondering how yye got on.

Mooooo

Some say putting in prg instead of Italian is better as more persistent. I'll see if I can find a mix one crowd were putting in, red and white clover along with prg. No experience myself now

blue5000

Mooooo wrote: »

Some say putting in prg instead of Italian is better as more persistent. I'll see if I can find a mix one crowd were putting in, red and white clover along with prg. No experience myself now

Did half rate irg/red clover + half rate prg and white clover in half a field with just red clover and irg in the other half last year. Docks are terrible in the half and half but cows much prefer grazing it. I think it's very hard to graze red clover, it just won't last. It's bare at the moment, but will try get pics up later on.

Water John

Red clover isn't going to last in grazing. Once it's severed below the first node by the animal it will die. Mainly for use in 3/4 cut silage with a light grazing in the spring and autumn.
Main problem with Italian is that with out weather you can get caught with a cutting date quite easily and it will go to seed, rapidly.

If the red clover is gone, you could try giving it a scratch with a harrow and scattering some red clover and rolling it in.

Gawddawggonnit

K.G. wrote: »

Doing a little research on red clover/italian with a view to putting one particular silage block under it and cutting it 3 to 4 times a year.the idea is that the nitrogen saved could be used on home block and maybe get a higher protein feed in later cuts.looking back here some lads tried it back through the year and wondering how yye got on.

Hmmm.
I’d a good chat with a relative yesterday evening. He’s tillage and dairy. He updated me on farming news...
He made a very valid point about nitrates. The dogs on the street know that the majority of nitrate leaching comes from the ‘milking platform’, however dairy farmers/Teagasc/Dept are well aware of this and are quite willing to throw all farmers under the nitrates bus. That’s wrong in so many ways.
It’s obvious from your post that you’re going to use the old ‘rob Peter to pay Paul’ craic, to hold onto the N for the MP. That’s irresponsible of you in fairness. Remember everyone suffers because of the few...

K.G.

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Hmmm.
I’d a good chat with a relative yesterday evening. He’s tillage and dairy. He updated me on farming news...
He made a very valid point about nitrates. The dogs on the street know that the majority of nitrate leaching comes from the ‘milking platform’, however dairy farmers/Teagasc/Dept are well aware of this and are quite willing to throw all farmers under the nitrates bus. That’s wrong in so many ways.
It’s obvious from your post that you’re going to use the old ‘rob Peter to pay Paul’ craic, to hold onto the N for the MP. That’s irresponsible of you in fairness. Remember everyone suffers because of the few...

What you seem to have missed is that i realise we have to change.i m just looking for ways to adapt gradually and the red clover strikes me as a potential option on that road.clover on the grazing ground presents alot of challenges and is very long term thing.the red clover for silage option seems to me to be more straight foward and 2nd and subsequent cuts could potentially have a higher protein feed and make us less reliant on imported gm soya.just trying to go in the right direction but it seems it does not pass the test.btw tillage days of feeding animal's could be numbered

GrasstoMilk

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Hmmm.
I’d a good chat with a relative yesterday evening. He’s tillage and dairy. He updated me on farming news...
He made a very valid point about nitrates. The dogs on the street know that the majority of nitrate leaching comes from the ‘milking platform’, however dairy farmers/Teagasc/Dept are well aware of this and are quite willing to throw all farmers under the nitrates bus. That’s wrong in so many ways.
It’s obvious from your post that you’re going to use the old ‘rob Peter to pay Paul’ craic, to hold onto the N for the MP. That’s irresponsible of you in fairness. Remember everyone suffers because of the few...

..........

Gawddawggonnit

K.G. wrote: »

What you seem to have missed is that i realise we have to change.i m just looking for ways to adapt gradually and the red clover strikes me as a potential option on that road.clover on the grazing ground presents alot of challenges and is very long term thing.the red clover for silage option seems to me to be more straight foward and 2nd and subsequent cuts could potentially have a higher protein feed and make us less reliant on imported gm soya.just trying to go in the right direction but it seems it does not pass the test.btw tillage days of feeding animal's could be numbered

‘The idea is that the nitrogen saved could be used on home block..’

GMO soya is a personal purchasing choice. Absolutely nobody forcing you to use it.

Gawddawggonnit

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

..........

Weird tweet that. Almost triumphalist...Teagasc need to do better than going to the heart of sbarley country to make another farming system look ‘less bad’.
I would have expected those results..
Short growing season, fert dumped on in a short space of time, with a long time in naked stubble. Easy fix that.

GrasstoMilk

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Weird tweet that. Almost triumphalist...Teagasc need to do better than going to the heart of sbarley country to make another farming system look ‘less bad’.
I would have expected those results..
Short growing season, fert dumped on in a short space of time, with a long time in naked stubble. Easy fix that.

But goes exactly against what everyone is saying thats it's all the dairy cows fault

Dairy can sort the N run off too

Gawddawggonnit

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

But goes exactly against what everyone is saying thats it's all the dairy cows fault

Dairy can sort the N run off too

The claim of the tweet is wrong on so many levels...

“N *LOADING* onto land doesn’t always = higher N losses to water”.

For a state body to come out with a statement like that is staggering. (It’s even worse that they pick another farming system as supposed proof).

Are you denying that the MP is a big offender?
Seems there’s a new malady in calves called ‘summer scour’...because, ‘we’re a victim of our own success’, or, in other words over fertilisation of grassland.

Dairy farming doesn’t ‘cure’ water quality issues, but they could certainly sort out issues inside their farm gate.

A lot of bullshyte is being promoted by dairy farmers (and obviously Teagasc) now that the reality of the situation is starting to sink in...the economic importance of dairy to the country etc.

GrasstoMilk

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

The claim of the tweet is wrong on so many levels...

“N *LOADING* onto land doesn’t always = higher N losses to water”.

For a state body to come out with a statement like that is staggering. (It’s even worse that they pick another farming system as supposed proof).

Are you denying that the MP is a big offender?
Seems there’s a new malady in calves called ‘summer scour’...because, ‘we’re a victim of our own success’, or, in other words over fertilisation of grassland.

Dairy farming doesn’t ‘cure’ water quality issues, but they could certainly sort out issues inside their farm gate.

A lot of bullshyte is being promoted by dairy farmers (and obviously Teagasc) now that the reality of the situation is starting to sink in...the economic importance of dairy to the country etc.

I've 2 calves with what I've.told is summer scour

None of them were left off till early May, had v well established rumens which is supposed to be one of the causes
And also young, high N ryegrass
None of which my calves were on

Don't know what to think of it


I'm not denying anything, just that dairy can sort out N and P run off by everyone implementing what we're being asked too
Which is now the standard of being a good farmer

I wouldn't be far from that catchment in my original reply
There's a vast difference between a historic dairy farm and tillage farm around here just in terms of ditches and hedges or lack off

Another thing dairy farmers are bludgened for

K.G.

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

‘The idea is that the nitrogen saved could be used on home block..’

GMO soya is a personal purchasing choice. Absolutely nobody forcing you to use it.

So what is the answer to the situation.

Gawddawggonnit

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

I'm not denying anything, just that dairy can sort out N and P run off by everyone implementing what we're being asked to.

Nailed it.

That’s why I picked up on K.G’s post.

Gawddawggonnit

K.G. wrote: »

So what is the answer to the situation.

Answer ^^^^^

K.G.

Interesting idea that of a zero emission dairy farm.

jaymla627

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

But goes exactly against what everyone is saying thats it's all the dairy cows fault

Dairy can sort the N run off too

The latest epa maps for my area on the barrow are pretty grim reading, 1000's of cows in the direct vicinity, good deal of tillage to be fair aswell, but id be expecting in my catchment, their is going to be some pretty steep regulations re slurry storage/fertilizer rates, its just a matter of when they enforce it

Gawddawggonnit

jaymla627 wrote: »

The latest epa maps for my area on the barrow are pretty grim reading, 1000's of cows in the direct vicinity, good deal of tillage to be fair aswell, but id be expecting in my catchment, their is going to be some pretty steep regulations re slurry storage/fertilizer rates, its just a matter of when they enforce it

It doesn’t have to come to the point where the EU walks in the door in Kildare St. making sweeping and severe demands on all farms. As GrasstoMilk said, all it takes is for everyone to do their bit. Time is short and getting shorter. Teagasc and dairy farmers shouting about the squillions of euros that they bring into rural Ireland means nowt. IMHO it’s better for everyone if things get turned around, and fast.
Teagasc findings on growing cover crops on naked tillage land was that it was an extra cost to tillage farmers for zero returns...which goes against findings from around the world. You couldn’t make it up.
I’ve been beating this drum for around a decade on this forum. You all know very well what needs to be done, but the consensus is to fight it to the very end. Ella (I wouldn’t be a fan) starkly describes the situation...


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/ireland-s-waterways-face-increasing-levels-of-nitrogen-pollution-1.4600424


I’ve been negotiating with a few companies to sell carbon sequestered on this place with months now. Could it be possible that I’m doing something right?

Mooooo

How long have you been measuring carbon sequestration? Is it via farmland or forestry? The carbon sequestration of grassland is overhyped imo. Soil carbon doesn't change a whole pile, drops a lot when tilled particularly standard ploughing takes up to 10 years to get back to where it was if in grass pre ploughing and put back in to grass. Sequestration in tillage ground therefore has higher potential due to losses already caused. Reducing fert use the counting of biogenic methane is prob our better bet
We have to work on what can be suitable to our country also, plenty things may work in France that simply won't work here, and vice versa

Gawddawggonnit

Mooooo wrote: »

How long have you been measuring carbon sequestration? Is it via farmland or forestry? The carbon sequestration of grassland is overhyped imo. Soil carbon doesn't change a whole pile, drops a lot when tilled particularly standard ploughing takes up to 10 years to get back to where it was if in grass pre ploughing and put back in to grass. Sequestration in tillage ground therefore has higher potential due to losses already caused. Reducing fert use the counting of biogenic methane is prob our better bet
We have to work on what can be suitable to our country also, plenty things may work in France that simply won't work here, and vice versa

Government measures farmland C levels here and I’ve no idea for how long..Possibly since the ‘0.4’ commitment/target of the Paris Accord.
I’ve previously given details on this when discussing N testing to 90cm, if you can recollect?
PRG in Irish (dairy) farms has very little ability to sequester C and has a shallow rooting system that is dependent on high levels of fertilisation. Again old ground.

If you’re suggesting that Teagascs assertion about cover crops having no place on tillage farms being correct, then I strongly disagree. Their advice to give all N to sbarley once you can see the tramlines (two leaf stage) and then to say that CCs have no benefit after the crop is harvested, is just bullshyte. To crown it they quote results from those tillage farms to justify the ‘loading’ of N on dairy farms...??
FFS.



I think that the first, and most pressing, issue to be addressed is water quality. Reducing fert ‘loading’ onto MPs would be a good place to start...it’ll start bringing emissions into line also.

K.G.

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Government measures farmland C levels here and I’ve no idea for how long..Possibly since the ‘0.4’ commitment/target of the Paris Accord.
I’ve previously given details on this when discussing N testing to 90cm, if you can recollect?
PRG in Irish (dairy) farms has very little ability to sequester C and has a shallow rooting system that is dependent on high levels of fertilisation. Again old ground.

If you’re suggesting that Teagascs assertion about cover crops having no place on tillage farms being correct, then I strongly disagree. Their advice to give all N to sbarley once you can see the tramlines (two leaf stage) and then to say that CCs have no benefit after the crop is harvested, is just bullshyte. To crown it they quote results from those tillage farms to justify the ‘loading’ of N on dairy farms...??
FFS.



I think that the first, and most pressing, issue to be addressed is water quality. Reducing fert ‘loading’ onto MPs would be a good place to start...it’ll start bringing emissions into line also.

That is already happening on farms around west cork and fellas are trying strategies to reduce nitrogen use but its not a flick of a switch.

yosemitesam1

K.G. wrote: »

That is already happening on farms around west cork and fellas are trying strategies to reduce nitrogen use but its not a flick of a switch.

What strategies are being tried?

Mooooo

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Government measures farmland C levels here and I’ve no idea for how long..Possibly since the ‘0.4’ commitment/target of the Paris Accord.
I’ve previously given details on this when discussing N testing to 90cm, if you can recollect?
PRG in Irish (dairy) farms has very little ability to sequester C and has a shallow rooting system that is dependent on high levels of fertilisation. Again old ground.

If you’re suggesting that Teagascs assertion about cover crops having no place on tillage farms being correct, then I strongly disagree. Their advice to give all N to sbarley once you can see the tramlines (two leaf stage) and then to say that CCs have no benefit after the crop is harvested, is just bullshyte. To crown it they quote results from those tillage farms to justify the ‘loading’ of N on dairy farms...??
FFS.



I think that the first, and most pressing, issue to be addressed is water quality. Reducing fert ‘loading’ onto MPs would be a good place to start...it’ll start bringing emissions into line also.

Didn't assert anything about cover crops and teagasc, from the few I know they would be in favour of covercrops, establishment after harvest of some crops such as maize is an issue but with the banning of the plastic used after this year that may reduce maize sown for a spell anyway. I assume not all tillage farmers go with teagasc verbatim. Its the water flowing thru a catchment rather than on farm is where its measured afaik.
Reason I asked about measurement is how do they know what is being sequestered unless it increases year on year. So therefore how can it be sold as an income source. Any farms measuring it I've heard of in a grassland scenario have had steady levels unless ploughed in which case it takes 10 years to get back to where it was pre ploughing. Deep ploughing has shown signs but that essentially buries the topsoil and turns up subsoil so puts it out of reach so to speak afaik, not applicable in most scenarios
The main carbon that isn't being counted against in grazing scenarios is the biogenic methane element where carbon used in photosynthesis is involved

Mooooo

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

What strategies are being tried?

LESS, protected urea and clover use would be the main ones at the minute. What shinagh throws up may be interesting I suppose as well.

Everyone has to do their bit, but It will be those of us in Ag which are likely to be paying the most to do it and expected to happen overnight

yosemitesam1

Mooooo wrote: »

LESS, protected urea and clover use would be the main ones at the minute. What shinagh throws up may be interesting I suppose as well.

Everyone has to do their bit, but It will be those of us in Ag which are likely to be paying the most to do it and expected to happen overnight

Adding in more grass species is probably thr best way to wean off some n without really touching production at all.
Less and protected urea probably eont do much for reducing n use just the counted emissions

K.G.

Strategies to increase clover contribution and reduceing the amount spread from say 27 to 20.it seems to be hit and miss with fellas.good land fares better than poorer land