Feed in tariff updates?

Birka

There's probably nothing to stop electricity suppliers setting a higher standing charge for FIT tariffs...

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118007766#Comment_118007766

At which point the price of everything fit related will skyrocket

Tbh, FIT shouldn't be a deciding factor when purchasing solar imo.

Most likely what you get from FIT will be given back with higher unit rates.

A year plus ago on this forum, FIT was being talked about a lot when factoring in pay back times etc. Not so much of it now, and a lot of people are opting for bigger battery systems instead.

It's a wait and see I guess, but as I said, the expectation isn't much as I don't think the government are too serious about climate action. Doesn't get many votes.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118007923#Comment_118007923

I gave a crack in trying to model the FIT with different sized batteries and prices - it's actually quite difficult. Not so much the math, but rather the uncertainty around what rates will come in.... and of course in order to get the FIT you will need a smart meter.....and right now that means giving up your day/night rate. While we can generally fudge the numbers with one or two variables and come up with "best guess" - just too many things at play there to come up with any kind of reasonable estimation. Least I was unable to....maybe someone else has?

Gut feeling tells me though that if we can keep with the smart meters, some kind of day/night tariff similar to what we have today, I'd just look as FIT as cherry on the cake. A nice bonus but your main cost savings with solar will always be maximizing your self-consumption and of course batteries will help there. A 5Kwhr will for most people see a decent enough payback time to make it worthwhile - but hard to say with any certainty. Maybe they will surprise us all and give us a similar 9 cent / unit like the French. <As if!>

slave1

FIT should not be a factor in deciding on an install, it's way more important to match your proposed setup in order to self consume, otherwise your outlay is too high

dloob

FIT got a brief mention in the budget. Pascal proposes a modest tax disregard for income from FIT. So he isn't going to charge you income tax on all the money you get from FIT.

No details on figures

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117355947#Comment_117355947

You're suggesting we pay 22c a unit and sell it back for 4c or 5c? Can't see many signing up to that

reklamos

I would not put much hope into FIT. Ireland as ussual is very late to implement this. I see in mainland Europe FIT changes in multiple countries and it is not benefiting the small producers. It was good initially but since more PV systems are being installed the FIT rates are going down.

paulbok

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009108#Comment_118009108

Glad to hear I won't hace to pay tax on the estimated €15-20 surpluss I'll have in the height of Summer from my system. 😅

I'd guess that with no major production being fed into the grid from here on for a few months, the suppliers may introduce it soon as a publicity stunt.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009151#Comment_118009151

True, but just like winter :-) smart meters are coming. Irrespective of if we want them or not, they are coming. So at some stage we're going to be forced onto those (currently) shite smart tarrifs. Hopefully the suppliers will come up with some competitive plans by then. My own theory is that they currently are deliberately pricing them poorly as they don't want the extra hassle of ESB networks (who are doing the installs) swamped by 10,000's people looking for one to "save a few quid". Once saturation happens, maybe 2023(?) we'll see more aggressive pricing options there from the suppliers.

I live in hope - yeah, maybe I'm naive.....

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118008670#Comment_118008670

I had a go at this a while back, it's a bit coarse but I worked out my expected import and export based on a particular array and battery size

I used the off grid calculator here to figure out the system generation

https://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvg_tools/en/tools.html

I took the average daily generation and worked this out into a monthly amount in kWh. I then compared this to my energy bills to figure out how much of a saving I'd make and how much electricity I'd need to import

Luckily with a battery, you can charge it during the night to essentially get all your electricity needs from night rates

I think did the same conversion for the energy loss result. This is the amount of PV lost because the battery is full, and would be the amount exported to the grid

Here's an example I got for a 14.8kWp array with a 14.4kWh battery backing it up

It's quite a rough method but it does give you a starting point. It doesn't take into account anything like changing habits and running energy intensive tasks during the day

It also shows that the FIT isn't likely to make much of a difference unless it's something like 15c/kWh

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009298#Comment_118009298

Yeah, thanks for that Raisin! Appreciate you taking the time there. That was sort if inline with what I attempted to do, but the math sort of gets skuppered because in order to get the FIT, you have to swap to the smart meter....and we know that means that you have to go onto those rubbish tarrifs. So unless they come out with new "FIT tarrifs" you won't be able to get that 5.8c import rate that you have above which your using to charge the battery for those winter months.

While your gaining "income" from the FIT, your losing in your ability to gain cheap night rate. Sadly that loss more than outweighs the gain, so unless the tarrifs change to support FIT in a meaningful way, you'd actually be worse off with a FIT of say 5c on todays smart tariffs.

I found it too hard to guess what they'll do as too many unknown variables in play with the FIT amount, tarrifs, etc. but I do still think that if you try and maximise your self-consumption, solar is a very good option and payback will (in most cases) be still under 10 years. Less if your a heavy consumer and can utilize a large battery.

the_amazing_raisin

True, I hadn't accounted for the higher smart meter rates. Hopefully when it comes time for me to install PV the rates will be closer to the regular day/night rates

Alkers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118008872#Comment_118008872

No, but it's a massive factor in whether battery systems make any financial sense at all

slave1

I think you can punch all the XL spreadsheets anyone wants but current pricing of hybrid inverters alongside price of likes of Pylontech/BYD batteries will never be financially viable.

Only financially viable route is ala Phil, sell the grant aided battery and install DIY LiFePo4 batteries. Garo and I doing same currently

On batteries. Did you have them installed before selling them?

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009865#Comment_118009865

With respect to "never" financially viable, not so sure that is true. It's more along the lines of.....it depends. Absolutely there are people out there who'd struggle to get their initial outlay, but I think 80% will see their money return. FIT complicates the math, but forgetting that you have solar panels at all and simply use the battery as a way to get cheap night rate electricity during the day will see a payback of 10-12 years. Add in storing your PV production during the good months drops it lower from that.

Introduction of FIT you could argue the "grid behaves as the battery", and getting paid for excess units you have in July helps the ones you import in Dec. So that's good. But very dependant on what FIT they give us. They may cap it too - wouldn't surprise me.

But for sure 100% as you say Slave, the fastest payback is with the method you suggest. Get the grant for the battery, sell on the battery and then go self-install. However, not everyone has the skills and for some, I'd downright say "please don't do it" as I don't want you to kill someone, including yourself :-)

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009865#Comment_118009865

Haha, that's a hilarious trick. Absolutely right IMO, when you look at the price of the prebuilt batteries versus a DIY one there's a huge saving to be has if you have the technical knowledge

Unfortunately my house isn't eligible for any of the current grants so won't work for me. On the plus side, I'm not a slave to any of the SEAI's idiotic requirements and can instead big a system as I like

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009778#Comment_118009778

Considering that demand is peaking when the sun is setting, I could easily see a battery being a requirement for the FIT

Or they'll give a garbage rate for systems with no battery and a slightly less garbage rate for systems that do

kabakuyu

200 euro tax free is the figure mentioned

"Minister Donohoe also proposed a “modest tax disregard” of €200 for personal income of households who sell leftover electricity that they generate back to the grid."

https://www.thejournal.ie/carbon-tax-increase-budget-2022-5572039-Oct2021/

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011560#Comment_118011560

Too complicated to monitor/verify.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011573#Comment_118011573

Isn't that basically net metering, where they'd just give you a fixed amount based on the system capacity?

Considering every country has ditched that type of system, and we're getting smart meters which can track export, I don't see that being the case

irishchris

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011573#Comment_118011573

Similar setup in UK. Have mate over there who still receives set amount payable for the size of his system. As soon as he gets smart meter though that then changes so avoiding for as long as he can.

It could be a way here to initially pay out due to fact so little small meters installed. Doubt it though

I also am not sure if minister donohoe is referring to a tax credit of 200 as opposed to 200 cash payment.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012199#Comment_118012199

I took it as you can "make" 200 euro without any income tax implications... Which at 5 c is 4000 kwh

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011590#Comment_118011590

I wouldn't say so, the grant already requires a battery above a certain level of power output, and they're talking about replacing the grant with a higher FIT tariff

fluffykre

already been discussed,above, deleted post

graememk

I understood it to be that you can "make" 200 euro from a FIT without any tax implications.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021033#Comment_118021033

Yeah, I read that the same way. To be fair though lads, even if they announced a FIT of 10c/unit (which is ... unlikely), that would equate to 2,000 Kw exported. How many of us would be in the running for that? Not too many I'd say......

Personally I've sort of mentally bucketed FIT as a bonus. Super if i can get a few quid from it, but not thinking it's going to pay for a weekend in Vegas, more like Bray on the Dart :-)

MAULBROOK

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021218#Comment_118021218

Im on for 1400kw sent this year. It would of been more as I stayed at home for holidays this year.

irishchris

2.61mwh exported but with triple the storage now I would hope that will reduce going forward. Will take whatever fit comes with it too