Feed in tariff updates?

irishchris

Is anyone else in here starting to doubt the government's rollout of this? Nothing I can find since the public consultation yet supposedly happening end of this month. Can't see it somehow

slave1

Still reckon it will be a derisory amount in any case, 4c/5c and eliminated with 5pm - 7pm rate hike

irishchris

slave1 wrote: »

Still reckon it will be a derisory amount in any case, 4c/5c and eliminated with 5pm - 7pm rate hike

Even at say 5c though it will still be very beneficial as even last month gave away just under 350kwh which over two month billing period would be a nice 35€ off my bill. Agreed they will hike prices with the smart plans but will be making sure my battery is discharging over those peak hours.

Unless it's incredibly generous I'll be saying no thanks to a smart meter for as long as possible.

Dudda

6 wrote: »

Unless it's incredibly generous I'll be saying no thanks to a smart meter for as long as possible.

Interesting. Is that the case for just people with renewable energy or everyone. Haven't done any maths so interested to hear more on this.

irishchris

Dudda wrote: »

Interesting. Is that the case for just people with renewable energy or everyone. Haven't done any maths so interested to hear more on this.

Everyone really as smart meters are excessively expensive but unfortunately everyone is going to have to accept one over next coming years

slave1

irishchris wrote: »

Everyone really as smart meters are excessively expensive but unfortunately everyone is going to have to accept one over next coming years

Why? If existing meter working....

irishchris

slave1 wrote: »

Why? If existing meter working....

Unfortunately most that will be replaced will be working but Esb networks are replacing 2.4 million meters to smart meters by 2024. Part of cost saving by them. On one hand not needing to employ meter readers and having an easier managed network and in doing so also sneaking higher priced plans onto people. Bad enough they got away with several price rises in last year with the lowest rates now all circa 16c but they then won't seem such a jump when they further hit people with smart meter unit prices.

Also as it is part of the government's climate action plan it is definitely happening and people unfortunately don't have a choice long term but to have one.

I heard 8 cents for up to 80% of feed in

Ubbquittious

Daniel Creamy Bubble wrote: »

I heard 8 cents for up to 80% of feed in

80% of what? how does this work?

They'll delay it until after the solstice and decreasing sunlight

lightson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They'll delay it until after the solstice and decreasing sunlight

🀣🀣🀣

DaveyDave

Was just thinking about this today. I'm sure the plans with feed in tariffs will have a higher unit rate like the plans with 'free' Climotes or Amazon crap.

purethick

I presume there's zero likelihood that a net metering model will be used for FiT here?

purethick

purethick wrote: »

I presume there's zero likelihood that a net metering model will be used for FiT here?

You presume correctly

And surprise surprise, tumbleweed from our outstanding government

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117622558#Comment_117622558

Not even an announcement on the matter.

I, honestly, expect an announcement in September. They'll get their PR while not actually having to pay people for months

machiavellianme

In fairness, days when there's high RES, the market price trends towards 0 or indeed heads negative. There's a handful of days during summertime when the sun shines and there's no wind that might justify a FiT but ultimately, the distribution network is designed for one way power transfers. There's substantial upgrades required for you to get your ability to export. Industrial customers are charged for MEC and for any reinforcements to the network but residential aren't. Expecting a significant FiT beyond the short to medium term is probably unlikely. I'd be more worried about being exposed to the negative prices after the 10GW+ that is required for 2030 are there!

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117668346#Comment_117668346

I do'nt anything about the state of the grid, but small exporters are currently exporting to the grid and not getting paid,what major upgrades does the grid need ?we are exporting at the moment with no problems.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117668346#Comment_117668346

They promised a FiT to push people towards sustainable home energy.

That's why

discostu1

From Memory FIT was part of RED and was to be introduced here circa July I heard Eamon Ryan waffling on the radio and got the impression it would be near the end of the year. Anyone any further updates

graememk

Nothing Nada. Boards will be a flurry if there is anything.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117355947#Comment_117355947

Imagine being French and "only" getting 9c...

buzz11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006192#Comment_118006192

Sparks might fly 🤣

Ubbquittious

Did anyone complain to d'EU about this? d'EU needs to light a bigger fire under their arse

bullit_dodger

As far as I'm aware they have until the end of the year from an EU perspective - which means that we won't see a red cent being paid for a FIT until 00:01 on Jan 1st. Why would they? It's not in their best interest. Right now they are getting excess for free from people with wind/solar, and effective selling on those units that people have given for nought.

But I believe they need to make it into law to get the FIT adopted. In order for that to happen, usually they send out a draft of the bill in advance asking for comments. So be surprised if we don't see a draft bill appear in the next short while.

Be truly excellent if we can get 9c like the French - can't see it though. My gut feeling is 4c.

DaveyDave

What's stopping them increasing costs across the board for everyone else so they don't lose out once the feed in tariffs come in?

simpsimp

According to an article in the Business Post (October 3rd, can't post the link, sorry), there will be an announcement on this in the Supplementary Budget in late October.

Well, they'll need to announce it at some stage this year!

I won't hold my breath for a large FIT, but holding off on another battery purchase until details are released anyway.

simpsimp

From the article...

The plans will be included as part of the forthcoming Climate Action Plan, which is expected to be published shortly after Budget 2022. The Department of Environment, Climate and Communications is engaging with the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel on transposing relevant articles from the new European Renewable Energy Directive to allow for the microgeneration scheme to be up and running by the end of the year.

Answering various parliamentary questions in the Dail last week, Eamon Ryan, the Minister for the Environment, said he expected a proposed framework to be published in the coming weeks. "It is expected the Commission for Regulation of Utilities (CRU) will publish a draft framework in the coming weeks outlining the details, including eligibility criteria and timescales for introduction," he said. Ryan added that the scheme, known as the clean export guarantee tariff, will introduce an obligation on electricity suppliers to offer remuneration to their customers "for excess renewable electricity exported to the grid by eligible micro- and small-scale generators".

It is understood that the CRU consultation will last four weeks, with a decision expected to be published in November, while the micogeneration scheme will make up a part of the revised Climate Action Plan to be announced in the coming weeks.

Birka

There's probably nothing to stop electricity suppliers setting a higher standing charge for FIT tariffs...

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118007766#Comment_118007766

At which point the price of everything fit related will skyrocket

Tbh, FIT shouldn't be a deciding factor when purchasing solar imo.

Most likely what you get from FIT will be given back with higher unit rates.

A year plus ago on this forum, FIT was being talked about a lot when factoring in pay back times etc. Not so much of it now, and a lot of people are opting for bigger battery systems instead.

It's a wait and see I guess, but as I said, the expectation isn't much as I don't think the government are too serious about climate action. Doesn't get many votes.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118007923#Comment_118007923

I gave a crack in trying to model the FIT with different sized batteries and prices - it's actually quite difficult. Not so much the math, but rather the uncertainty around what rates will come in.... and of course in order to get the FIT you will need a smart meter.....and right now that means giving up your day/night rate. While we can generally fudge the numbers with one or two variables and come up with "best guess" - just too many things at play there to come up with any kind of reasonable estimation. Least I was unable to....maybe someone else has?

Gut feeling tells me though that if we can keep with the smart meters, some kind of day/night tariff similar to what we have today, I'd just look as FIT as cherry on the cake. A nice bonus but your main cost savings with solar will always be maximizing your self-consumption and of course batteries will help there. A 5Kwhr will for most people see a decent enough payback time to make it worthwhile - but hard to say with any certainty. Maybe they will surprise us all and give us a similar 9 cent / unit like the French. <As if!>

slave1

FIT should not be a factor in deciding on an install, it's way more important to match your proposed setup in order to self consume, otherwise your outlay is too high

dloob

FIT got a brief mention in the budget. Pascal proposes a modest tax disregard for income from FIT. So he isn't going to charge you income tax on all the money you get from FIT.

No details on figures

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117355947#Comment_117355947

You're suggesting we pay 22c a unit and sell it back for 4c or 5c? Can't see many signing up to that

reklamos

I would not put much hope into FIT. Ireland as ussual is very late to implement this. I see in mainland Europe FIT changes in multiple countries and it is not benefiting the small producers. It was good initially but since more PV systems are being installed the FIT rates are going down.

paulbok

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009108#Comment_118009108

Glad to hear I won't hace to pay tax on the estimated €15-20 surpluss I'll have in the height of Summer from my system. 😅

I'd guess that with no major production being fed into the grid from here on for a few months, the suppliers may introduce it soon as a publicity stunt.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009151#Comment_118009151

True, but just like winter :-) smart meters are coming. Irrespective of if we want them or not, they are coming. So at some stage we're going to be forced onto those (currently) shite smart tarrifs. Hopefully the suppliers will come up with some competitive plans by then. My own theory is that they currently are deliberately pricing them poorly as they don't want the extra hassle of ESB networks (who are doing the installs) swamped by 10,000's people looking for one to "save a few quid". Once saturation happens, maybe 2023(?) we'll see more aggressive pricing options there from the suppliers.

I live in hope - yeah, maybe I'm naive.....

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118008670#Comment_118008670

I had a go at this a while back, it's a bit coarse but I worked out my expected import and export based on a particular array and battery size

I used the off grid calculator here to figure out the system generation

https://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvg_tools/en/tools.html

I took the average daily generation and worked this out into a monthly amount in kWh. I then compared this to my energy bills to figure out how much of a saving I'd make and how much electricity I'd need to import

Luckily with a battery, you can charge it during the night to essentially get all your electricity needs from night rates

I think did the same conversion for the energy loss result. This is the amount of PV lost because the battery is full, and would be the amount exported to the grid

Here's an example I got for a 14.8kWp array with a 14.4kWh battery backing it up

It's quite a rough method but it does give you a starting point. It doesn't take into account anything like changing habits and running energy intensive tasks during the day

It also shows that the FIT isn't likely to make much of a difference unless it's something like 15c/kWh

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009298#Comment_118009298

Yeah, thanks for that Raisin! Appreciate you taking the time there. That was sort if inline with what I attempted to do, but the math sort of gets skuppered because in order to get the FIT, you have to swap to the smart meter....and we know that means that you have to go onto those rubbish tarrifs. So unless they come out with new "FIT tarrifs" you won't be able to get that 5.8c import rate that you have above which your using to charge the battery for those winter months.

While your gaining "income" from the FIT, your losing in your ability to gain cheap night rate. Sadly that loss more than outweighs the gain, so unless the tarrifs change to support FIT in a meaningful way, you'd actually be worse off with a FIT of say 5c on todays smart tariffs.

I found it too hard to guess what they'll do as too many unknown variables in play with the FIT amount, tarrifs, etc. but I do still think that if you try and maximise your self-consumption, solar is a very good option and payback will (in most cases) be still under 10 years. Less if your a heavy consumer and can utilize a large battery.

the_amazing_raisin

True, I hadn't accounted for the higher smart meter rates. Hopefully when it comes time for me to install PV the rates will be closer to the regular day/night rates

Alkers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118008872#Comment_118008872

No, but it's a massive factor in whether battery systems make any financial sense at all

slave1

I think you can punch all the XL spreadsheets anyone wants but current pricing of hybrid inverters alongside price of likes of Pylontech/BYD batteries will never be financially viable.

Only financially viable route is ala Phil, sell the grant aided battery and install DIY LiFePo4 batteries. Garo and I doing same currently

On batteries. Did you have them installed before selling them?

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009865#Comment_118009865

With respect to "never" financially viable, not so sure that is true. It's more along the lines of.....it depends. Absolutely there are people out there who'd struggle to get their initial outlay, but I think 80% will see their money return. FIT complicates the math, but forgetting that you have solar panels at all and simply use the battery as a way to get cheap night rate electricity during the day will see a payback of 10-12 years. Add in storing your PV production during the good months drops it lower from that.

Introduction of FIT you could argue the "grid behaves as the battery", and getting paid for excess units you have in July helps the ones you import in Dec. So that's good. But very dependant on what FIT they give us. They may cap it too - wouldn't surprise me.

But for sure 100% as you say Slave, the fastest payback is with the method you suggest. Get the grant for the battery, sell on the battery and then go self-install. However, not everyone has the skills and for some, I'd downright say "please don't do it" as I don't want you to kill someone, including yourself :-)

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009865#Comment_118009865

Haha, that's a hilarious trick. Absolutely right IMO, when you look at the price of the prebuilt batteries versus a DIY one there's a huge saving to be has if you have the technical knowledge

Unfortunately my house isn't eligible for any of the current grants so won't work for me. On the plus side, I'm not a slave to any of the SEAI's idiotic requirements and can instead big a system as I like

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009778#Comment_118009778

Considering that demand is peaking when the sun is setting, I could easily see a battery being a requirement for the FIT

Or they'll give a garbage rate for systems with no battery and a slightly less garbage rate for systems that do

kabakuyu

200 euro tax free is the figure mentioned

"Minister Donohoe also proposed a “modest tax disregard” of €200 for personal income of households who sell leftover electricity that they generate back to the grid."

https://www.thejournal.ie/carbon-tax-increase-budget-2022-5572039-Oct2021/