I have just been offered redundancy..

GreeBo

WhyTheFace wrote: »

Yes, this sounds like a plan.

I have no intention of leaving on bad terms, so maybe just be upfront and say it is better for both if I exit sooner rather than later.

Am I right in thinking I would be paid (and taxed) for the outstanding annual leave not taken?

Has this annual leave already been accrued? AL is pro-rata so you have only earned half of your AL by this time of year.

Still not sure what you are planning if they want you to work your notice period yet you are starting a new job in a month...

WhyTheFace

GreeBo wrote: »

Has this annual leave already been accrued? AL is pro-rata so you have only earned half of your AL by this time of year.

Still not sure what you are planning if they want you to work your notice period yet you are starting a new job in a month...

I have 15-20 days accrued for the first 6 months including some carried forward from last year.

I do not have a set date with my old boss and it is flexible enough.

In 28 days time the consultation period will end and I will accept whatever redundancy they offer me. I will then use up my annual leave and give them a month's notice if they want.

I cannot see them wanting me to stay on for 3 month's seeing as I have already been casually threatened about intellectual capital theft as mentioned above.

micosoft

WhyTheFace wrote: »

Is it possible to be paid gardening leave and redundancy?

No. Pick whichever is favourable which is almost certainly redundancy from a tax perspective and means you can start immediately with your "old" employer. Gardening leave means you are officially continuing to be employed by you existing. Highly dubious given circumstances that gardening leave is on offer anyway. It's there to avoid competitive ability/info going to competitor - the fact they outsourced your role suggests no. I'd focus on maximising redundancy. You can accelerate the process by asking HR what package to forfeit the consulting period and forfeit any future rights i.e. appeal. If you are lucky they will take the cost of fighting a unfair dismissal claim and give it to you... and its tax free up to a limit I think.

JPA

Is the role redundant if its being outsourced?

It mightn't matter to you OP but you've put way too much information up here, it would be very easy for someone to identify you.

WhyTheFace

micosoft wrote: »

No. Pick whichever is favourable which is almost certainly redundancy from a tax perspective and means you can start immediately with your "old" employer. Gardening leave means you are officially continuing to be employed by you existing. Highly dubious given circumstances that gardening leave is on offer anyway. It's there to avoid competitive ability/info going to competitor - the fact they outsourced your role suggests no. I'd focus on maximising redundancy. You can accelerate the process by asking HR what package to forfeit the consulting period and forfeit any future rights i.e. appeal. If you are lucky they will take the cost of fighting a unfair dismissal claim and give it to you... and its tax free up to a limit I think.

Thanks for that, HR gave me the impression no redundancy could be offered until the end of the 30 day consultation period. If I can get out quicker than that with some redundancy then I will!

Daisy03

WhyTheFace wrote: »

Thanks for that, HR gave me the impression no redundancy could be offered until the end of the 30 day consultation period. If I can get out quicker than that with some redundancy then I will!

When we got made redundant we got a letter the day of the annoucement with details of the package, proposed finish date and it said our jobs were at risk. The 30 days started and we had weekly meetings with HR during that time. At the end of the 30 days we got our official redundancy agreements which we signed. The terms of the package hadnt really changed from the initial letter.

During those 30 days we could ask HR any questions we had. We met them as a group and we submitted questions in advance if possible. Officially they said those 30 days for the company and the employee to try and find alternative work for us but really it was more us askimg questions about money and benefits.

GreeBo

WhyTheFace wrote: »

I have 15-20 days accrued for the first 6 months including some carried forward from last year.

I do not have a set date with my old boss and it is flexible enough.

In 28 days time the consultation period will end and I will accept whatever redundancy they offer me. I will then use up my annual leave and give them a month's notice if they want.

I cannot see them wanting me to stay on for 3 month's seeing as I have already been casually threatened about intellectual capital theft as mentioned above.

You have a 3 month notice period, so you cant just give them a months notice?
You can probably use your AL to offset 1 month of that, but your contract is your contract.

WhyTheFace

GreeBo wrote: »

You have a 3 month notice period, so you cant just give them a months notice?
You can probably use your AL to offset 1 month of that, but your contract is your contract.

I don't know if they will bother wanting to keep me for 3 months if they already suspect I am going to a competitor.

In 28 days time if they withhold my redundancy because I only give one month then I will just have to forfeit the redundancy and so be it. My new job is flexible but not up to 3 months.

iColdFusion

Are you not worried the other staff being made redundant will also be trying to get a job in your old and soon to be new company?

I'd be handing in my notice and signing a contract with your new company before they work out they might have a strong hand in salary negotiations soon enough, sounds like any potential redundancy is small money compared to your salary anyway and you never have to say you were made redundant at any future job interview.

WhyTheFace

iColdFusion wrote: »

Are you not worried the other staff being made redundant will also be trying to get a job in your old and soon to be new company?

I'd be handing in my notice and signing a contract with your new company before they work out they might have a strong hand in salary negotiations soon enough, sounds like any potential redundancy is small money compared to your salary anyway and you never have to say you were made redundant at any future job interview.

No, no fear at all of other staff. Only one other could fill the position and they have other plans.

My old boss knows I have other options so even if they find out about redundancy here I can use other opportunities I might go with to negotiate.

ForestFire

One thing I remember from many many years ago...so you will need to recheck this, and also only applies once you have officially being made redundant (i.e. Offered accepted and signed off etc.)

actually found the relevant sections here, and judging by this you cannot leave earl unless agreed with you current employer.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/redundancy/redundancy_procedures.html

Time off
If you are being made redundant, you are entitled to reasonable paid time off in order to look for a new job. This right is set down in law in Section 7 of the Redundancy Payments Act 1979. (You should note that while the Redundancy Acts have been amended a number of times the provisions as set down in 1979 for time off still remain.

Holidays
You are entitled to any holidays that are outstanding or payment in lieu of holidays.

Leaving before your notice expires
Between receiving your notice of redundancy and the date your employment ends, you may give your employer notice that you wish to leave before the end of your notice period. You do this by completing form RP6 (pdf) and giving it to your employer. Your employer can decide whether or not to allow your request. You should note that leaving during the notice period without your employer's agreement may affect your entitlement to a redundancy payment.

Ken Mc Carthy

Ken Mc Carthy wrote: »

"Non compete" clauses are nonsense/ a myth in the event of redundancy. Being ' made'to work out the contractual period is also a bit of a non entity. As OP said earlier productivity would be at floor level. Redundancy overrides any 'non compete' clause....day after you get the cheque you're your own man. Companies HAVE tried to enforce non-competes but the "let go" employee always wins..... what court could promote unemployment over work??? The OP here holds all the aces......only question is how much €€€€ the cheque is for

Good man, Ken.


My advice to the OP stands. He shouldn't assume anything.

gooner99

Sorry for hijacking this thread. Myself and a few others in my company were made redundant late last year. At the time the company pleaded inability to pay, so we only got statuary. I've just heard that the government are seeking that the company pays back the redundancy money. Could we now be entitled to seek a package from the company on the back of this?

mrslancaster

WhyTheFace wrote: »

I don't know if they will bother wanting to keep me for 3 months if they already suspect I am going to a competitor.

In 28 days time if they withhold my redundancy because I only give one month then I will just have to forfeit the redundancy and so be it. My new job is flexible but not up to 3 months.

Instead of garden leave where you remain on-call, on the payroll & accrue all your other benefits for the full notice period maybe your company would consider payment in lieu of notice. You'd lose the accrued benefits such as holidays etc as termination date is effective immediately. AFAIK, if your contract allows for PILON then it's taxable but if it's not included then it can be considered an ex gratia payment. Revenue will have info about this.

Employers might be wary of PIL in case employees later decide they were unfairly dismissed & take a case. In your situation, the job is being made redundant, you're entitled to time off to find new employment & if they have concerns about you going to competitors they might be happy to pay your 3 months notice in lieu. If you are in a union they can advise or get some information about it from the WRC.

Tell me how

gooner99 wrote: »

Sorry for hijacking this thread. Myself and a few others in my company were made redundant late last year. At the time the company pleaded inability to pay, so we only got statuary. I've just heard that the government are seeking that the company pays back the redundancy money. Could we now be entitled to seek a package from the company on the back of this?

Possibly, but very difficult to do given that you have already received redundancy and probably signed some form of acceptance of that at the time that indicated you wouldn't.

That aside, payment above statutory is usually down to company discretion at time of consultation period and while they may have lied that they had sufficient money to pay what the government ultimately paid out, that doesn't mean that they would be willing to not only find that money to return it to the government but that they would be so morally inclined as to find more to gift it to employees who have already left.

It would take either a strong (and costly) legal pursuit to even try to get them to do so or to have some leverage over them which would encourage them to do so and I doubt the former would be realistically considered and the latter is probably not the case.

WhyTheFace

Hi,

OP here.

So I am meeting the CEO and HR director on Friday for a 2nd (and last I presume) meeting as part of the consultation process.

So far they have:

1) shared a job spec to a colleague which seemed to have been created to match his skill set. He is a more senior member of staff than I but I have the qualifications and experience to do the job. This job was not offered to me to apply for.

2) I was told there was a job which I could apply for but I told them verbally I would not be interested as it is something that someone could do straight out of college (with the appropriate degree). So they never shared it with me.

3) they shared a job spec which is pretty much what a colleague is already doing. This colleague was not included in the redundancy meeting. I would not go for this job as 1) she has been doing this job for 20 years and 2) as it can be done without the science qualification I have it would probably mean a 30k drop in salary. They know I would not go for this so I think they just shared that with me to make it look like they offered me something to apply for.

I have told both the CEO and HR director separately that they haven't really offered me anything and I think redundancy should be the focus of the next meeting. I also said that I wanted to leave the company on good terms if it turns out I do end up leaving. Again, I am only being so civil as I have a job sorted.

I obviously have not let on I have found another job. I plan to tell them that I have nothing lined up, that I will work to rule (as in only do my manager work instead of offering to also do some healthcare work as per my original qualification which I currently offer to do to help out).

Does anyone have any tips on how best to handle the meeting?

I have 3 months notice in my contract and about 3 weeks annual leave to take. In reality I would be happy to take statutory redundancy and give one month's notice and so effectively finish up in the near future.

I just want to know if I could succeed in securing more of a package, and if so, how?


Thanks

WhyTheFace

OP here again.

I am meeting the CEO and HR director tomorrow.

I am going to see if I can get anymore than statutory but regardless I aim to not go back to work bar maybe one or two days. I plan to say I will give them one month notice instead of 3 but that I have a month's annual leave.

The CEO confirmed he would not enforce the 3 month notice period or withhold redundancy.

The only query I have is that, to date I have not been offered any alternative position. Two positions were internally advertised to all staff but both were designed for specific staff in mind. One took the position and the other didn't as they are planning to take against the boss for unfair dismissal.

I am just wondering is an employer obliged to offer an alternative? If they don't does it strenghten my hand to look for more than statutory?

Tell me how

WhyTheFace wrote: »

OP here again.

I am meeting the CEO and HR director tomorrow.

I am going to see if I can get anymore than statutory but regardless I aim to not go back to work bar maybe one or two days. I plan to say I will give them one month notice instead of 3 but that I have a month's annual leave.

The CEO confirmed he would not enforce the 3 month notice period or withhold redundancy.

The only query I have is that, to date I have not been offered any alternative position. Two positions were internally advertised to all staff but both were designed for specific staff in mind. One took the position and the other didn't as they are planning to take against the boss for unfair dismissal.

I am just wondering is an employer obliged to offer an alternative? If they don't does it strenghten my hand to look for more than statutory?

If they don't it may open the door to you also taking an unfair dismissal claim against them as they effectively made you unemployed when there was no need to do so.

This is from citizens information.

Alternative work
As with any dismissal, an employer must act reasonably when dismissing an employee in a redundancy situation. This means that your employer must consult with you before the decision is made. In addition, your employer should consider all options including possible alternatives.

If your employer makes you a reasonable offer of alternative work, and you refuse it, you may lose your entitlement to a redundancy payment. Generally, alternatives which involve a loss of status or worsening of the terms and conditions of your employment would not be considered reasonable. Similarly, you may be justified in refusing an offer that involves you travelling an unreasonable distance to work.

You may take up an alternative on trial for up to 4 weeks. If the alternative involves a reduction of 50% or more in hours or pay, working under the new arrangements for up to 52 weeks will not count as an acceptance.

If you accept a new contract or re-engagement with immediate effect and the terms do not differ from those of the previous contract, you will not be entitled to claim redundancy. This also applies if you refuse such an offer unreasonably.

If you accept an offer in writing from your employer for a new and different contract which will start within 4 weeks of your previous contract ending, you will not be entitled to claim redundancy. Equally, if you refuse such an offer unreasonably, you will lose your right to a redundancy payment.

Your justifiable refusal of an offer of alternative work, followed by dismissal, may, depending on the circumstances, entitle you to look for statutory redundancy or make a claim for unfair dismissal.

Any offer of alternative work should be given to you in writing and you are entitled to full information concerning the details of the offer.

Are you aware of an alternative role that will exist in the company that could be reasonably offered to you? If not then that is your answer but if there is, to use this to leverage an increased redundancy, would involve you asking for that role to be offered to you I think with the suggestion that being unemployed will have such a negative financial impact on you that you must try to avoid that situation.

But, to be honest, personally speaking, given the fact that you have a new job lined up and were going to leave anyway, I wouldn't be testing the karma Gods to claim such in order to get what I think would only a small amount extra in redundancy payment. But that's a personal decision everyone has to make for themselves.

Darc19

The colleague who has refused the new position offered will find an unfair dismissal case next to impossible.

You have zero chance of an unfair dismissal as you will not be able to show any loss whatsoever as you have a new job lined up.

WhyTheFace

Tell me how wrote: »

If they don't it may open the door to you also taking an unfair dismissal claim against them as they effectively made you unemployed when there was no need to do so.

This is from citizens information.



Are you aware of an alternative role that will exist in the company that could be reasonably offered to you? If not then that is your answer but if there is, to use this to leverage an increased redundancy, would involve you asking for that role to be offered to you I think with the suggestion that being unemployed will have such a negative financial impact on you that you must try to avoid that situation.

But, to be honest, personally speaking, given the fact that you have a new job lined up and were going to leave anyway, I wouldn't be testing the karma Gods to claim such in order to get what I think would only a small amount extra in redundancy payment. But that's a personal decision everyone has to make for themselves.

Nobody was offered any jobs, we were just told we could apply for certain jobs. But my understanding of the law is that they should have offered us an alternative position.

I could have applied for one of the positions but would only have gotten it because my colleague refused.

I somewhat agree with you about Karma etc., in reality I would be happy to just walk away with statutory plus one month's notice which I will use up my annual leave on. But I still feel I should get as much as I can considering how much of a prick the CEO has been.

WhyTheFace

Darc19 wrote: »

The colleague who has refused the new position offered will find an unfair dismissal case next to impossible.

You have zero chance of an unfair dismissal as you will not be able to show any loss whatsoever as you have a new job lined up.

His unfair dismissal case is based on the fact that they have outsourced his position to another company. However, legally this position cannot be outsourced as they must be employed directly by the corporate body.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

I know for a fact of companies who have.

I got 8 weeks/year in a place I worked

Darc19

WhyTheFace wrote: »

His unfair dismissal case is based on the fact that they have outsourced his position to another company. However, legally this position cannot be outsourced as they must be employed directly by the corporate body.

He was offered an alternative which he refused.

And I can't think of a position that "legally" cannot be outsourced.

Be very careful listening to advice that suits your narrative

Taxedalot

I've been through this a few times.

I think you are more than entitled to ask for indicative figures for what you package will be - after all you will soon be out of a job and your employer should understand that there will be financial stress and anxiety associated with that.

Your package should include:

Statutory (€3000) as worked out above
Unused accrued annual leave

And possibly:

Ex gratia sum (x weeks per year)
Payment in lieu of notice (PILON)

In my experience, once the consultation period ends with no alternative role found, you are then given formal notice of redundancy and that's when you'll be given your termination date - you should negotiate this to suit you if possible.

There's every possiblity you'll get PILON based on what the CEO said. As mentioned previously, if that is mentioned as a possibility in your contact it'll be taxable, but if not, some or all of it will be exempt based on your overall exemption - without getting too deep into pension implications and assuming you haven't been made redundant in the last 10 years your exemption would be €21,690.

Hope it all works out.

WhyTheFace

Darc19 wrote: »

He was offered an alternative which he refused.

And I can't think of a position that "legally" cannot be outsourced.

Be very careful listening to advice that suits your narrative

He wasn't offered a job, he was invited to apply for a job.

This position cannot be outsourced. Its a Superintendent position in a medical field. Must be directly employed by the company.

WhyTheFace

Taxedalot wrote: »

I've been through this a few times.

I think you are more than entitled to ask for indicative figures for what you package will be - after all you will soon be out of a job and your employer should understand that there will be financial stress and anxiety associated with that.

Your package should include:

Statutory (€3000) as worked out above
Unused accrued annual leave

And possibly:

Ex gratia sum (x weeks per year)
Payment in lieu of notice (PILON)

In my experience, once the consultation period ends with no alternative role found, you are then given formal notice of redundancy and that's when you'll be given your termination date - you should negotiate this to suit you if possible.

There's every possiblity you'll get PILON based on what the CEO said. As mentioned previously, if that is mentioned as a possibility in your contact it'll be taxable, but if not, some or all of it will be exempt based on your overall exemption - without getting too deep into pension implications and assuming you haven't been made redundant in the last 10 years your exemption would be €21,690.

Hope it all works out.

Thank you for this info!

Bass Reeves

TUPE legislation may apply here. If the company is outsourcing a section of it works then legally employees can insist on there jobs being maintained in the same terms and conditions in the company that takes over the area of work that is outsourced.

It would be one of the reasons that companies offer fairly decent redundancy in such situations. You should check out TUPE legislation to see if it applies.

At this stage the company should be making a firm offer. Strictly speaking they should offer all staff similar terms and conditions of redundancy who are being made redundant.

It would be a question to ask them if they offer you redundancy is this offer similar to what they are offering other employees. If TUBE legislation applies you could mention it's implications to them.

You colleague who's bring made redundant who's job is technically not gone is in a very strong position to negotiate.

WhyTheFace

Bass Reeves wrote: »

TUPE legislation may apply here. If the company is outsourcing a section of it works then legally employees can insist on there jobs being maintained in the same terms and conditions in the company that takes over the area of work that is outsourced.

It would be one of the reasons that companies offer fairly decent redundancy in such situations. You should check out TUPE legislation to see if it applies.

At this stage the company should be making a firm offer. Strictly speaking they should offer all staff similar terms and conditions of redundancy who are being made redundant.

It would be a question to ask them if they offer you redundancy is this offer similar to what they are offering other employees. If TUBE legislation applies you could mention it's implications to them.

You colleague who's bring made redundant who's job is technically not gone is in a very strong position to negotiate.

Thanks for this. Yes my colleague will be putting in a claim for sure.

I am just hoping to get as much PILON as possible on top of statutory redundancy.

I will be focussing on the fact that they never offered me anything. Two jobs were advertised - one which would have been a significant pay reduction. The other designed specifically to keep my colleague sweet. He obviously refused this as it would jeopardise his unfair dismissal case down the line.

pc7

OP I'd just be careful you aren't making yourself too identifiable in these posts, it will out that you have a post lined up.