Have FG finally noticed we have a vacant properties problem?

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998507#Comment_117998507

I apologise for misgendering you albeit in a 'internet speak' way where cool story bro is a catch all phrase.

The post I was responding to was riddled with assumptions which were completely incorrect and had nothing to do with the points I raised.

You were triggered by one fairly inconsequential sentence.

As my post was discussing vacancy tax there was little point in distracting from that with a tangent about the absolute hames most LAs are making of managing their housing stock. I agree with you on that score. I was, however, highly critical of LAs in general over their failure to collect outstanding taxes. So much so I suggested that task be handed over to Revenue.

'Hoarding' would generally apply to people with more than one vacant NPPR. Plus, if the properties are occupied, even as holiday homes, they are not vacant, and I would certainly hope none are derelict.

I also made it clear that I was aslo discussing retail units, heritage sites etc.

Lastly, the house that set you off on flights of fanciful was owned by an owner occupier, we bought at the same time. He emigrated and rented the house out to very good tenants but was reluctant to pay for any upkeep - not that he did much while he lived there - so evicted them to sell the house. Which took over a year. The local authority bought it. Moved a family in, moved the family out as there were rats. Now it's been empty for a further 2 years. And has rats.

So now my dogs are killing rats in my garden because the house next door has been empty for a total of 3 years minus 2 months.

So yeah, I'm not big on a person can do what they like with their property if it means I end up with rats in mine.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998587#Comment_117998587

Respectfully, it’s the State that has left that property vacant.

They are responsible to sort out the rat infestation.

Perhaps I’m not interpreting your words correctly here and forgive me if I am wrong.

But it seems (in this instance) like you want to punish private property owner with yet another punitive tax for the sins of a State owned entity?

I can understand being pissed off with a property owner (in this case the State) who allows their property become a hazard to those around them.

But to punish every private citizen who may decide at some point to leave their property vacant for an extended period of time is totally unjust.

Citizens are paying more than enough taxes already for the privilege of owning their own property.

You’re taxed when you buy it, you’re taxed whilst paying for it, you’re already taxed every year for having it, and when you die your kids are taxed and on and on it goes.

And you want people to have to pay even more tax just for their right to be able to leave their property and take a break from an adult lifetime busting their butts paying taxes?

No, just no.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997898#Comment_117997898

Exactly, a bedroom tax, no doubt that’ll be next on their agenda.

FFS Best get handy with a sledgehammer we’ll be needing to knock through walls and get rid of the guest room next.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998717#Comment_117998717

You are misunderstanding.

I want the owners of vacant properties to pay the taxes due. Not an extra tax. The tax that is already on the books. The failure of LAs to determine whether such taxes are due and collect them means it would be better for Revenue to take over.

Where a person has several vacant properties, let's say 5 +, taxes should be increased as they are hoarding a valuable commodity in a time of scarcity. Onus on the owner to provide proof they are not hoarding.

I believe those who allow properties to become derelict, often creating a risk to the public, should be forced to ensure these properties are properly maintained. If they cannot or will not do so CPO orders should be fast tracked.

It is insane that there are derelict properties in this country and no one seems to know who owns them when it comes to paying for maintenance but when it comes to selling for development there's no issue. Or when a CPO order appears.

You, and I, and all if us who pay our LPT are forking out for the works to stabilise these buildings.

There's about 7 3 story retail/flats properties on Cork's North Main Street in advanced decay. The street has had to be closed Several times for emergency work. It wasn't that long ago they were functioning shops. Paying rates. Employing tax paying people. People lived in the flats.

So yes, I think the owner's of places like these should be 'punished.

You seem to think I haven't burst my butt to buy my home, that I don't pay my way, that I don't have anyone to leave my house to. You are wrong. I also know my son will not have to pay a penny unless property prices go insane and they fail to raise the threshold for inheritance from a parent.

My grandchildren are in line to inherit 3 houses between 2 of them. I think paying 33% CGT on 1 of the 3 is fair enough personally, they will still have a house free and clear each.

Flinty997

Feels like a land grab as a political sop while continuing to do little to take the heat out of the market or increase supply where it's need.

The wolf doesn't want little red riding hood. They want Grandma's house.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998771#Comment_117998771

This is just hysteria, nobody is proposing a bedroom tax.

A vacancy tax is proposed to tackle this sort of thing - block of 54 apartments for sale in Finglas. Prospect Hill built in 2005.

https://www.daft.ie/commercial-property-for-sale/prospect-hill-finglas-dublin-11/3432231

From the sales brochure:

"The remaining 28 units are vacant and available for immediate occupation. 26 of the vacant units are capable of achieving full Market Rent, having never been let and occupied on a temporary basis only"

26 apartments that have never been available on the rental market in the 16 years since they were built. And we're told we have a housing crisis!

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998968#Comment_117998968

Did you check who owned them and why they weren’t let? Seems the place has a history and wasn’t finished, Nama/State own and are selling the property.

https://dublinpeople.com/news/dublin/articles/2021/04/16/58-idle-finglas-apartments-still-idle-after-16-years-of-nothing/

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/nama-puts-finglas-residential-rental-portfolio-for-sale-at-14-5m-1.4606680?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Fcommercial-property%2Fnama-puts-finglas-residential-rental-portfolio-for-sale-at-14-5m-1.4606680

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2019/03/13/a-block-of-58-social-homes-empty-for-years

Flinty997

Now that is funny...

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999015#Comment_117999015

This was discussed a few months ago on the chat thread. Portfolio for sale was NAMA but not the same as the unfinished DCC ones as in the People article as far as I recall.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999172#Comment_117999172

Yes it was, but the irony of you using it as an example of unlet, vacant properties which should be taxed by the Government seems lost on you.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999198#Comment_117999198

Not in the slightest, NAMA should be top of the list to be taxed.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999243#Comment_117999243

And the State is selling the portfolio to a private investor so that it will be brought into use. Perhaps you should have picked a more suitable example to make your point.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998819#Comment_117998819

Okay On your first point, wanting owners of vacant properties to pay their existing due taxes.

I’ve no figure on how many of them haven’t paid their existing taxes but I do know even if they haven’t paid as yet, they’re just delaying the inevitable they’re not going to be able to sell, transfer or bequeath their property without paying their due taxes. So either they’ll end up paying it, or their children will have to pay it. The Revenue is always going to get their pound of flesh.

With regard to people who have 5+ properties. Likewise, I’ve no figure for them or for how many of those properties may or who may be hoarding. But as far as I’m concerned, if their property is not causing a hazard to public safety, it’s their business what they do with their property. If they’d the money to go out and purchase 5 properties to leave to their kids and / or grandkids, fair play to them.

And although I personally, do not like to see any property left standing idle, if they don’t wish to rent out their property that is their right.

That said, I do concede, if we were having this conversation three years ago, I may have erred on side of trying to encourage them to rent out their properties until their kids / grandkids came of age to take over the properties themselves.

But given what I’ve learned during my three short years of being a LL in Ireland between the ever changing crazy legislation, high taxation and no protection. Right now, I think they’re dead right, they’d want to be nuts to let a property.

With regard to derelict retail properties in towns and villages. (There are a few in my nearest village too)

They're an eye sore and I would absolutely agree that their owners should be obligated to ensure they are not a hazard to the public and because they are on the Main Street of the village, a main thoroughfare at least the front of their building should be maintained and tended to in keeping with adjoining buildings. I can’t be certain but I think there may already be a dereliction tax?

But again, it’s not my business if they want to leave the inside vacant. That’s their right.

No matter what way I look at it, penalising an Irish citizen for being absent from their own property is unjust as far as I’m concerned.

Either take away the right of every Irish citizen to be absent from their property and prohibit every citizen from coming and going as they please, or none at all.

Either all Irish citizens have the same Constitutional property rights or they don’t.

And never, at any time should any citizen be forced, coerced, or bullied into any profession against their will.

If the price of purchasing a property includes being forced into becoming a landlord and renting out that property at some later date, the same should hold true for every Irish citizen buying a property.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998968#Comment_117998968

First of all take a breath there ain’t nobody “hysterical” here.

My comment was in response DubCount’s point, which is a logical progression from what’s being proposed here today.

May I remind you of the words of former Taoiseach Enda Kenny back in the 90’s

QUOTE: “"It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home" - Enda Kenny, 1994 .

And here you are today, trying to convince me that the tax a former Taoiseach once considered “unjust, unfair and morally wrong” is now, not enough to be paying. Now citizens should be punished with even more unjust taxation just to maintain their right to be able to leave their own property and should have to explain their absence from their own property to the State.!

Given the progression from Enda Kenny’s words in 1994 to today, I don’t think it’s so much of a stretch to predict the probability of a spare bedroom tax coming next.

With regard to the apartment complex advert you shared.

Is the owner of those apartments a private citizen? Or a company ?

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998968#Comment_117998968

No need to answer my question Schmittel, I’m just reading up on the history of that apartment complex that you shared.

(Thanks to Dav010 for the informative links.)

So the owner of those properties is actually the State / Nama, and you claim the proposed vacant property tax would “tackle this sort of thing”.

So you want to State to impose the vacant punishment tax on itself? 😂

Well, at last we’ve found common ground.

I couldn’t agree more, and while they’re at it, punishment tax themselves some more for the 5000 vacant council properties the length and breadth of the country.

10,000 citizens homeless, and circa 5000 vacant council properties, a four year old could figure out the solution to that one.

They should get their own house in order before coming after Irish citizens for even more punitive taxes for simply maintaining their right to leave their own property if or when they choose.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999288#Comment_117999288

You are arguing if people can afford to hoard they have the right to hoard.

Would that apply to fuel?

Food?

Medical supplies?

All would be a person's property after all. If they can afford to buy loads and not use it apparently that is their right.

I disagree. I see it as the same mentality as price gouging/fixing. It is exploitative. The role of the State is to protect all citizens, not just those with money to hoard resources.

I am also not sure you realise the extent of the problem. It is far beyond a 'few retail units in the village' - it is endemic.

There are more vacant properties with 2 km of Cork City GPO than homeless people in the entire country. Literally thousands in a city with a population of less than 200k people.

You were interested in reading the about the flats for sale - may I ask if you read this thread? https://twitter.com/frank_oconnor/status/1275900684186062849

It's the one started on Cork and it is an eye opener - for those who want their eyes opened to the dereliction all around us.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000128#Comment_118000128

Not only is YipeeDee arguing it, but he/she has the benefit of the Irish Constitution to support his/her argument. There is no cap on the amount of food, fuel nor medicine you can store.

Have you researched to see who owns those properties and why are they derelict?

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000200#Comment_118000200

That is one interpretation of the Constitution - the one advanced by an Attorney General with an extensive property portfolio. And even then the State can, and has, acted to CPO properties. Therefore there are exceptions for the public good.

You are claiming property rights are absolute, they are not. While they may be classified as fundamental rights - all fundamental rights can be limited or restricted in the public good.

"The Constitution declares that the State will vindicate the property rights of every citizen. This means that you have a right to own, transfer and inherit property. You also have the right to bequeath property upon your death. The State guarantees to pass no law to abolish these rights.

Article 43 acknowledges that these rights ought to be regulated by the principles of social justice. This means that the State may pass laws limiting your right to private property in the interests of the common good. The most common form of limitation is taxation on ownership, transfer and inheritance.

Other examples of restrictions or limitations on your right to own property include town and regional planning, protection of national monuments, compulsory acquisition of land."

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/irish_constitution_1/constitution_fundamental_rights.html

Hoarding property to the point it becomes derelict during a housing crisis is not in the public interest and therefore not an absolute right. The Constitution is clear the State has the right to act - taxation and CPO are two often used options.

Before wheeling out the Constitution perhaps research it a bit better.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000247#Comment_118000247

There is a fundamental difference in your interpretation of what is in the best interests of the public, and that which is allowed and protected by the constitution, and that could not be clearer than in relation to the purchase of property. Under CPOs, doesn’t the State have to pay the market value of the property? Have you considered the costs to the State in buying all those properties in Cork and all the other towns/cities, and whether they represent value?

From my own experience of buying a derelict, town centre protected structure and turning it into a large health Clinic. It took years to close the purchase due to issues with the title, planning applications, refusals, re-submitting, then building the Clinic under the watchful eyes of the planners to ensure the structure retained its protected status. To someone such as yourself it was a vacant derelict eyesore during those years.

So do your own research, find out why they are derelict. Incidentally, it’s great to see Moores Hotel is finally being redeveloped and a pity the Harbour development isn’t going ahead due to issues with planning and finance/projected earnings.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000304#Comment_118000304

I never suggested the State doesn't pay for the property so you are arguing against a point I never made. I would say that the cost of any work to stabalise property be deducted from the price.

Have you considered the cost to the State of HAP? Vulture funds not paying tax? Long-term leases? It seems the funds are there for some projects.

You trotted out the Constitution in support of the argument that property rights are absolute. You were incorrect. It says in the Constitution the State can restrict property rights in the public good. Therefore the absolutist argument is void. Regardless of why properties are derelict. Part of acting to deal with the problem would include fast-track planning for restoration/renovation projects. It needs political will. While people deny there is a problem or claim the Constitution prevents action it let's govt (whatever party is in power) off the hook.

And yes, hopefully Moore's Hotel wouldn't shed anymore render on top of pedestrians.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000128#Comment_118000128

If the guy has the money and wants to buy 5 houses to give to his kids / grandkids, as long as the properties are not a danger to the public.

And he’s not doing anything illegal inside in them. That’s his right.

If you want to put a limit on how many properties an Irish citizen is allowed to buy. Simple. Have it written in to law.

I have repeatedly said that I, personally don’t like seeing properties standing idle but if a citizen doesn’t want to rent out their property, that’s their right too.

No citizen should be bullied, forced or coerced into a profession against their will.

You say that I don’t realise the extent of the problem.

That may be true, I said from the beginning I have no figures for the claims you are presenting.

How many citizens are there in Ireland that own 5 properties (as in your example)?

How many citizens own the properties falling in to disrepair ?

Can you present me with some solid data on this please?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000337#Comment_118000337

I “trotted out the Constitution” to support my argument that there is nothing to prohibit the buying/hoarding of properties, if you have a link to any legislation that prohibits that, please post it.

What I posted in relation to CPOs was the consideration of the cost of buying derelict buildings/rebuilding them and the value for money that offers. It is not just a case of the State deciding to buy a derelict property and that is it, the owner has the right to object and seek arbitration.

CPOs have been primarily used for road widening or infrastructure projects like the Luas, in the case of town properties it has been used for dangerous/condemned buildings. Can it be used to buy a building the owners plan to develope?, I doubt it as any public interest would likely be countered by the owners plan to return it to use. I used my own experience as an example, to someone like yourself who knows nothing about the building it looked like a derelict eyesore, but my plan was to develope it, could the LA have CPO’d it in the public interest or would they have? Not a hope.

So rather than quoting a Twitter page, go find out what the plans for those buildings are.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000550#Comment_118000550

Of course somebody can buy as many properties as they please, and also if they want to leave those properties empty then of course that's their right. And as far as I'm aware the government is not proposing that these rights should be abolished.

But it also the government's right to apply taxes to that property if they wish. So the only change would be it costs extra to leave a property empty. You're still perfectly entitled to exercise that right.

This is not trampling on somebody's constitutional or human rights.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000632#Comment_118000632

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000632#Comment_118000632

My comment was in response to specific points Bannasaide made.

And also previous points he had made earlier in our conversation.

I suggest you read back the full conversation to understand the context in which I was making my responses.

With regard to the vacant punishment tax that is being proposed.

I have already addressed this multiple times previously.

Citizens are already paying tax every which way for the property they own.

We are taxed when we buy a property, taxed whilst we are paying for it, taxed to just have it, and when we die our children are hit with tax and on and on it goes.

The additional tax being proposed here is to actually tax citizens even more just so they can maintain their right to leave their own property. Every citizen has the right to come and go from their own property as they please. They should not be penalised with a punishment tax for just leaving their own floor. And they should not have to explain their absence from their own property to anyone. If the State wants a say in a private citizens movements with regard to their own property. Well then the State should be paying a share in that citizens mortgage.

Furthermore as I said to you earlier in our conversation.

If the State wants to impose a punishment tax on citizens leaving their own property.

They should take a look in the mirror.

With circa 5000 State owned properties lying idle the length and breadth of the country, in the middle of a housing crisis which is their job to resolve. If anyone deserves a punishment tax, it’s the State itself.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000769#Comment_118000769

@YipeeDee

The additional tax being proposed here is to actually tax citizens even more just so they can maintain their right to leave their own property. Every citizen has the right to come and go from their own property as they please. They should not be penalised with a punishment tax for just leaving their own floor. And they should not have to explain their absence from their own property to anyone.

But this is absolute nonsense. If a vacancy tax exempts PPRs, the state is not imposing "a punishment tax for just leaving their own floor" or asking people "to explain their absence from their own property to anyone"

Their absence is already explained by the very fact they live somewhere else!!

Dav010

Interesting article in today’s Times, HSE currently has 300 vacant buildings, double the number 3 yrs ago.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000825#Comment_118000825

I notice you have no response to the fact that State itself has circa 5000 council properties lying idle right now. In the middle of a housing crisis that is their job to resolve. No response to idea that the State should impose this vacancy punishment tax upon itself?

Instead you want to pursue the private citizen who has busted their arse to purchase their property and paid their taxes all their adult life.

Whether they’ve purchased just one home for themselves or multiple homes in order to bequeath to their multiple children and give them a start in their lives. Property that those children will most likely also be paying taxes on to inherit It is still their own property that they have bought and paid for and are already paying their due taxes on.

At no time when I purchased my property did I read anywhere in the terms.

Thou must not leave this property for more than six months without a letter to the teacher explaining your absence.

Thou may be forced to become a landlord against your will at some point in the future.

And if you refuse to enter into a profession against your will, the State can and will force you to sell to them to them the property you’ve busted your butt paying for and you wish to bequeath to your children. Which will also mean you’re going to be punished by getting screwed on Capitol gains tax which will most likely leave you unable to purchase another property to leave to your child.

lossless

A magic wand is waved and every empty room in the country is made available for purchase or rent.

When that surplus is soaked up quicker than lightning and the housing crisis remains right on track...what then?

At what point are people going to realise the basics, that Ireland is smaller than earth, and that demand, not supply, is the problem?

mrslancaster

Seems there will be a new tax on zoned land suitable for residential development. Its to encourage house building & the development of small sites in towns. Local authorities to publish maps before it starts, lead-in time 2 years for land zoned before jan 22 and 3 years for after that.. Tax of 3% based on the market value of the land and self-asessed, administered by Revenue.

Exclusions are dwelling houses and their gardens, amenities and infrastructure. This new tax to replace the vacant site levy.

according to this the zone land tax will actually be kinder to land hoarders than what it replaces:

https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/zoned-land-tax-will-cut-penalty-for-hoarding-and-wont-take-effect-for-two-to-three-years-20f832f8